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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by hooperman View Post
    Then you're not writing for a real user. You start off writing for a human and then change it. I would just just write for a huiman and leave it at that.
    Totally disagree. I am writing for a real user. I'm also using the skills I have to give myself an advantage over the competition without the humans even noticing, it has zero impact on their experience.

    The 3.5% is not a constant. it's a maximum density that you shouldn't go over in an unnatural way. You could have a keyword phrase density of 1% and as long as all the other words have lower densities you're good.

    The bot doesn't make judgments, it doesn't know whether you've accidentally gone over the maximum density whilst trying your hardest to provide the user with the best possible experience. It'll look at all the page factors and if your keyword density is too high you MAY get penalised.

    You don't have to do it if it offends your sensibilities, but there's no denying that it works.

  2. #27
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy hooperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJMcClure View Post
    The 3.5% is not a constant. it's a maximum density that you shouldn't go over in an unnatural way.
    And this maximum density is constant....?

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkcook View Post
    Hi

    Can someone point me to a good book or training on Keyword Density?

    We have had an e commerce site for sometime and I have changed shopping carts to clickcartpro about 6mths ago. I have been also been using some pay per click to get sales. I am wanting to increase sales I feel that my Keywords may not be good and I have no idea what Keyword Density is.

    Thanks
    Brian
    Dear Brian

    It means number of times a keyword appears within a web page.
    The perfect keyword density will help achieve higher search engine positions. Further, keyword density needs to be balanced correctly.
    The keyword density ratio should be in the range of 2-8%.

    However, Fresh content with smart usage of keywords is all that matters to get Higher SE ranking

    Parikshat
    Vinove - Your WebScape Partner

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by hooperman View Post
    And this maximum density is constant....?
    No, it's a maximum.

    My interpretation of 'constant' in this context is a number you always have to hit.

  5. #30
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy hooperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJMcClure View Post
    My interpretation of 'constant' in this context is a number you always have to hit.
    That's an interesting interpretation of constant

    I go back to the example I gave earlier of a page having one made up word on it that appears nowhere else in the index. If it's indexed it will rank #1 for that word, even though KD=100%. How can that be if there is a constant threshold for keyword density beyond which penalties are incurred?

  6. #31
    is craving 'the potato' slayerment's Avatar
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    Even if the SE's did use keyword density who's to say it would be the same for every industry? Different industries require different types of content.

    At the end of the day all you need to do is throw your keywords in your title tags and call it a day.

  7. #32
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy bigalreturns's Avatar
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    The best keyword density for all round SEO is the one at which people will find the content reads most naturally, because they'll then be more likely to link to it. To achieve this feat of writing for humans is simple, forget the search engines when you're writing your content!
    "The proper function of man is to live - not to exist."
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  8. #33
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    I think the keyword density should be reasonable by 3%, and your article should be informative rather than just piling up keywords in your articles.
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  9. #34
    He's No Good To Me Dead silver trophybronze trophy stymiee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macroer View Post
    I think the keyword density should be reasonable by 3%, and your article should be informative rather than just piling up keywords in your articles.
    You can take that number and throw it out the window. Like it has been said already there is no magic number to hit. Write your content for human beings and make sure it high quality. Then make sure you took advantage of your opportunities to get your keywords in there without turning it into a spammy mess. Since the biggest benefit of good content is the links they generate you should be focusing on making your content worthy of those links rather then chasing a mythical number.

  10. #35
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    Just make the right Keyword appear on your page several times, along with good quality content (which in e-commerce store's case just means good description of the product) then match that up with the meta tags and title of the page.

    I don't see why everyone gets so complicated over this.
    SEO Multilingual - International SEO and Web Design

  11. #36
    Web developer chrisranjana's Avatar
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    Yes keyword density is one among the 100 different points using which google ranks a particular web page.
    Chris, Programmer/Developer,
    Laravel Php Developers, Ruby on Rails programmers,
    Moodle, Opencart, Magento, Geodesic Classifieds/Auctions,
    www.chrisranjana.com

  12. #37
    He's No Good To Me Dead silver trophybronze trophy stymiee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by parikshat@vinove View Post
    However, Fresh content with smart usage of keywords is all that matters to get Higher SE ranking
    No it's not. Due to flaming rules here at SitePoint I have to stop my response right here.

  13. #38
    Word Painter silver trophy Shyflower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkcook View Post
    So if I fully use the name of the product would that help? I currently do this

    "Your child will love this cute Stephen Joseph Quilted Backpack! The backpack measures approximately 9.5” x 12” and is the perfect size for your little one! It has a drawstring closure and a flap with a magnetic snap. The backpack also features a zippered pocket on the side with a cute matching keychain! The backpack is accented with a cute Race Car design embroidered on the front. The backpack is adorable just the way it is, but even cuter with your child’s name embroidered on it for FREE! Personalization Included"

    I am thinking about anywhere I have "backpack" putting Stephen Joseph Quilted Race Car Backpack.
    I know your post is about keyword density, but overall you are missing the mark on your sales copy for both conversion and SEO.

    You are telling the features, but not selling the benefits.

    Put the product in an h2 (SE0). Put the first sentence in an h3 (SEO). Then start the paragraph-

    "The Stephen Joseph Quilted Backpack puts your child in the driver's seat!"

    "The Stephen Joseph quilted backpack is a dream carrier for any young NASCAR hopeful. His friends will envy the backpack's embroidered race car design and the quilted backpack gives him extra padding for extra comfort as he races down the street.

    "Measuring 9.5 X 12, the Stephen Joseph Quilted Backpack is the right fit for your child. The backpack's zippered pocket adds extra space for pencils, collector cards or his latest model car treasure. Finally, the handy keychain is a safety precaution for you and an added bonus for your child! Free Personalization enables your child to grab and go and gives the Stephen Joseph Quilted Backpack pole position, in every child's eyes."

    Anyway... that's one way I'd write it. Think of who will buy it, who will use it and how its features will benefit both.
    Linda Jenkinson
    "Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean." ~Unknown

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by hooperman View Post
    That's an interesting interpretation of constant

    I go back to the example I gave earlier of a page having one made up word on it that appears nowhere else in the index. If it's indexed it will rank #1 for that word, even though KD=100%. How can that be if there is a constant threshold for keyword density beyond which penalties are incurred?
    You tell me, you're the one that's fixated on it and I'm getting a little tired of this superior 'cater to the user you spam artist' attitude I keep running into on this particular forum. I'm not some unethical kid looking for a quick fix or a way to cheat the system, I'm a professional website developer with high personal standards and I resent your implications.

    The 3.5% is what says in the Sitepoint SEM kit and what seems to work in practice.

    Google made the rules, I'm just trying to stick to them and to do that I have to understand them.

    Honestly, the way some of you guys talk about SEO I don't know why you even post on an SEO forum.

  15. #40
    Word Painter silver trophy Shyflower's Avatar
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    I'm sure the SEM kit meets the usual high Site Point standards. It was released in September. Now that doesn't seem so long ago, but how long did it take to get written, edited, printed?

    In the last year we have seen radical changes in the ways that search engines index sites. While the SEM kit is filled with excellent SEM strategies, some of them are outdated just because of how fast SEM changes.

    Look back at what SEM newsletters said 6 months ago and what they are saying today. I'm sure you'll find a discernible difference between the two in many facets of SEO and SEM.

    First of all, we all know that targeting single word keywords is more or less a lost "art"

    If you're targeting phrases, it's near impossible to keep a density percentage. For instance the phrase "web content design", will generate listings for web content, web design, and content design as well as web content design. If you are targeting the phrases "web content", "web design", and "web content design" you will easily max out the two word phrases to keep the third at a static percentage.

    Moreover, when you talk about keyword density in terms of percentages, in a 500 word piece of content, you would have to use that three word phrase 15 times. I've read content like that and it looks spammy, amateurish, is difficult to read, and generally misses out on the content that encourages conversion.

    It seems that many people keep their eyes on getting ranking in search engines but forget the goal is to get the visitor that converts to a sale.
    Linda Jenkinson
    "Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean." ~Unknown

  16. #41
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy hooperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJMcClure View Post
    You tell me, you're the one that's fixated on it and I'm getting a little tired of this superior 'cater to the user you spam artist' attitude I keep running into on this particular forum. I'm not some unethical kid looking for a quick fix or a way to cheat the system, I'm a professional website developer with high personal standards and I resent your implications.
    Calm down I'm making no implications about your good self.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJMcClure View Post
    Google made the rules, I'm just trying to stick to them and to do that I have to understand them.
    Google did make the rules, but this 3.5% nonsense was fabricated by someone outside of Google.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by hooperman View Post
    Calm down I'm making no implications about your good self.
    Ok, you accept then that my intention is not to 'game' the search engines. I'm simply trying to become knowledgeable about SEO the same way you guys must have done way back when.

    Quote Originally Posted by hooperman View Post
    Google did make the rules, but this 3.5% nonsense was fabricated by someone outside of Google.
    Perhaps there is no optimal keyword density, I have no problem accepting that, after all I've been doing this about 5 minutes compared to some of you. Believe me, I'm open minded about this. I wouldn't even be arguing it it wasn't for the tone of the replies.

    I can understand your exasperation but don't tar me with that particular brush, I'm not like that.

    I can only go by what I read and the Sitepoint SEM kit is a reputable source.

    I now have reverted to being back on the fence on this issue until I have more experience.

  18. #43
    Object Not Found junjun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJMcClure View Post
    I wouldn't even be arguing it it wasn't for the tone of the replies.
    I don't think anyone has given you a tone in this thread McClure (it might be that you take replies personal though). Give this forum some time to grow on you, you'll learn to appreciate it. IMHO it's the the friendliest forum of it's size. Most of the time we try to help the OP and in SEO related threads there's also a lot of helping people sort out facts from myths.

  19. #44
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy hooperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJMcClure View Post
    Ok, you accept then that my intention is not to 'game' the search engines.
    To be honest, I'm not interested in your intentions I'm simply disputing the old keyword density theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJMcClure View Post
    Perhaps there is no optimal keyword density, I have no problem accepting that, after all I've been doing this about 5 minutes compared to some of you.
    You seemed to have picked things up pretty quick then!

    Quote Originally Posted by JJMcClure View Post
    I can understand your exasperation but don't tar me with that particular brush, I'm not like that.
    I'm not exasperated and my tar brush is still in my holster.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJMcClure View Post
    I now have reverted to being back on the fence on this issue until I have more experience.
    The thing about keyword density is it is nigh on impossible to prove whether a particular number is optimal. It doesn't seem logical to me that there would be some magic number, but I'm open to changing my mind if Google enlighten us/there's some proof.

    I think Shyflower makes a good point when she emphasizes the importance of writing your copy with your human audience in mind.

  20. #45
    He's No Good To Me Dead silver trophybronze trophy stymiee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJMcClure View Post
    I can only go by what I read and the Sitepoint SEM kit is a reputable source.
    As odd as it is to say this on SP's own forums but I wouldn't say it is a reputable source. Definitely no more reputable then other SEO books and we've torn quite a few of those apart here in our day (and rightly so). Just because it is in print or sold or by someone famous doesn't mean it is any good. In SEO when someone is charging for the information the odds are it contains a lot of fluff and baseless speculation. They have to in order to sell their product.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by stymiee View Post
    As odd as it is to say this on SP's own forums but I wouldn't say it is a reputable source. Definitely no more reputable then other SEO books and we've torn quite a few of those apart here in our day (and rightly so). Just because it is in print or sold or by someone famous doesn't mean it is any good. In SEO when someone is charging for the information the odds are it contains a lot of fluff and baseless speculation. They have to in order to sell their product.
    So it would seem. However, along with some the fluff, I've picked up a lot of good understanding from it and I would recommend it.

    Even if things like the 3.5% are erroneous, there's a very good flow of the basic logic and specifics aside, they explain the approach to SEO very well. It's certainly taken my SEO to a new level and now I'm learning to sort the wheat from the chaff on here.

  22. #47
    He's No Good To Me Dead silver trophybronze trophy stymiee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJMcClure View Post
    So it would seem. However, along with some the fluff, I've picked up a lot of good understanding from it and I would recommend it.

    Even if things like the 3.5% are erroneous, there's a very good flow of the basic logic and specifics aside, they explain the approach to SEO very well. It's certainly taken my SEO to a new level and now I'm learning to sort the wheat from the chaff on here.
    As you should. Getting multiple views and combining that with evidence, experience, and common sense is how you get a solid understand of SEO.

  23. #48
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    The best approach to getting your keyword density right (in my opinion at least) is to first write your content without worrying about keyword density. You then go through your content and where ever you have uses a synonym of your chosen keyword you substitute the keyword instead. That way you maximize the occurrences of your keyword on the page within the natural readable text content of the page. Even if someone else does manage to temporarily get a higher ranking through artificially increasing their keyword density at the expense of visitor readability the search engines will eventually correct that bug in their ranking algorithm.
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  24. #49
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    Keyword density in itself isnt vital, but you should probably mention the phrase the page is optimized for a couple times in the page content. I usually try to make sure and include related phrases on the page as well.
    Evan, CEO
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  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkcook View Post
    Can someone point me to the Sitepoint SEM/SEO kit. also is it good?
    http://www.sitepoint.com/kits/sem2/

    You can download a sample and see for yourself. SEO is not an exact science (algorithms are secret, and are subject to change at any time) but I think the advice given is pretty sound: "white hat" techniques to get the best results from your SEO efforts.

    Regarding the keyword density issue, IIRC, the SEM Kit says that it's not keyword density, per se, that you should be targetting (and measures like KEI) - you should write natural content that works for your visitors, while making sure that you make effective use of keywords that you are targeting (though an understanding of how search engines view the page).
    Simon Mackie



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