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  1. #1
    SitePoint Wizard lorenw's Avatar
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    Client will probably sue me, Help

    I never thought I would be posting here and this is my story.

    I have a client that is running a totally hacked mojoscript community classified script. I took over hosting due to issues he had with his other host.

    When I mean hacked there are about ten database and server path configuration files for who knows what, the code is a mess. I did get it eventually working but it would not work on a server running php as a cgi so we moved to another shared server running php as a module.

    My server people have been compromised too many times by people running outdated forums and commerce scripts and they are going to change all servers to CGI this month.

    I am only a reseller and have no say so with my provider.

    I informed the client that he would need to upgrade his scripts (the scripts are so old register globals need to be "on")
    to work with the server upgrade.

    He says his site works fine and If we do anything to break it . . .
    Well here is what he wrote:

    Regardless of what you have just said, let this message serve as ample prior notice that my site is functioning the way it should function for the purposes of our business needs. If the proper display and function of my site on the internet for all to see is negatively interfered with, legal procedings will immediately be commenced without further notice.

    then he says:
    In view of the planned events that you have just informed us of, we will be closely monitoring events as they occur.
    Honestly his website is running on leadded gas and we can now only offer unleadded.

    I told him it was for security of hundreds of other people and according to him he doesnt need the extra security, he was just recently hacked and had a panick attack, go figure.

    Anyway his site almost guaranteed will go down and he will sue.

    I dont have the $$ to hire a lawyer, would I have a chance of defending myself? I have no idea how these things work.

    We can't be stuck in the dark ages because he refuses to upgrade his scripts. And on top of it I am not making the change, my hosting company is. Most severs, as I understand are going the cgi route, even godaddy runs cgi.

    My guess is that within two years there will not be any hosting company that will host his site. Other hosting companies say too bad, update your scripts.

    Any Thoughts??
    What I lack in acuracy I make up for in misteaks

  2. #2
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy C. Ankerstjerne's Avatar
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    Hire a lawyer to go through your contract. It doesn't matter if you have the money or not, because if you don't have the money for a lawyer, you will certainly not have the money for loosing a lawsuit.
    Christian Ankerstjerne
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  3. #3
    SitePoint Guru El Camino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lorenw View Post
    I am only a reseller and have no say so with my provider.
    What do you have in your client agreement that would let you cancel his account? What agreements do you have with the provider? What is the reseller/provider relationship? Are you renting a server from them?

  4. #4
    I hate Spammers mobyme's Avatar
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    Contact your provider and give them sight of the letter you received. It is in their interests to help you. As a reseller you should always use the same terms and conditions as your provider. At the end of the day it is not going to be a massive job to get his scripts running on CGI even if they are prehistoric, but only do it as a last resort. I think that you are on pretty safe ground saying that his scripts are likely to compromise security and therefore you are notifying him that he must make other arrangements for the future.You are not obliged to do business with this client unless you have given some extraordinary undertaking that is written into a contract.
    There are three kinds of men:
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    The few who learn by observation.
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  5. #5
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    All sounds a bit over dramatic to me - forget getting sued, there's a simple solution. If I was hosting a client and he informed me that if I upgrade my server, he will sue me, I'd simply send him 30 days notice that I am cancelling his hosting agreement. Problem solved - no one wants clients like that.

    On a side note, get yourself a managed dedicated server - this is a good reason why it is a bad idea to resell hosting; you have absolutely no control over your server config. Moving servers takes a day or so to sort out, hardly a big deal. You can then set up your server any way you want.

  6. #6
    SitePoint Wizard lorenw's Avatar
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    Thanks for the great comments, I want CGI on my server, no questions asked, the company I resell through is outstanding and I get questions/ issues resolved in hours, not days.

    If his scripts pose an imminant security threat can I suspend his account until the issue is resolved.

    He is not using my_real_escape_string() and requires globals to be "on" and as a module requires 777 permissions on directories as well as a large number of images in many directories.

    he was just recently hacked. can I shut him down untill those issues are resolved?

    I really do not want him as a client. I restored his website and then saw his true colors.
    What I lack in acuracy I make up for in misteaks

  7. #7
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    I have never come across hosting yet that will guarantee that an antiquated script will run. Any script that compromises the security of the server is instantly disabled and left for the owner to fix before it is allowed to be re-enabled.

    The other thing that you may want to take into account is that as of the end of December PHP 4 is officialy dead and buried. It would be reasonable to upgrade all PHP servers to version 5 before that time and if you were to give notice now that it will be happening at the end of December it gives your clients over a month to make sure that their script will continue to work (of course they have had many months already since it was first announced anyway).
    Stephen J Chapman

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  8. #8
    SitePoint Wizard lorenw's Avatar
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    This just in.
    It's *me* from tech support.

    We have noticed a large number of accounts on your server comprimised due to not upgrading 3rd party scripts. Please remind your customers if they use any 3rd party scripts, to make sure they check for updates at least once a month, this includes scripts install from cPanel or Fantastico. For added security we will be switching php to run in CGI mode. Any illegal activities from your resold accounts make that account and your entire reseller account subject to possible suspension and/or termination.
    I dont give clients ftp access and all third part apps are upgraded regularly. EXCEPT my client who is going to sue me, his third party and programmer that hacked up the scrips has never been upgraded, for at lest 4 years.

    Can I demand he upgrade his scripts for the security of all on the shared server?
    What I lack in acuracy I make up for in misteaks

  9. #9
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    Surely he agreed to your terms and conditions? If so, doesn't this cover all these issues? You cant be forced to host someone, so if he isn't willing to secure his scripts, why don't you dump him and refund any outstanding hosting fees he paid in advance? Why would you even waste your time worrying about him, I don't think anyone would want to keep a client who threatened to sue. I really dont see what the big deal is - just terminate the agreement and move on.

  10. #10
    SitePoint Wizard lorenw's Avatar
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    @shadowbox
    yes but he will sue anyway, he knows I am shoestring but he will claim he was making 10,000 dollars per day (or could have).

    after helping him his true colors showed, help a snake and he will strike you. It doesn't matter what the ageement states he will sue,

    This guy, comes to find out buys air rights (what the h^^ are air air rights) against a property in forclosure and forces the new buyers to pay extra for them.

    He is a snake. I found out too late.
    What I lack in acuracy I make up for in misteaks

  11. #11
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=shadowbox;3623638]All sounds a bit over dramatic to me - forget getting sued, there's a simple solution. If I was hosting a client and he informed me that if I upgrade my server, he will sue me, I'd simply send him 30 days notice that I am cancelling his hosting agreement. Problem solved - no one wants clients like that./QUOTE]

    I agree. This doesn't seem to be a problem. Send a registered/certified letter to the client explaining that you are a hosting reseller and that your provider will be upgrading the servers. Explain that you will be terminating his account in 30 days and offer to help with his migration (without reason) if you're feeling generous.

    I don't really see how he'd be able to sue you unless you signed a contract that said you'd host him forever. Some of the responses here are so emotional - another storm in a teacup.
    The fewer our wants, the nearer we resemble the gods. — Socrates

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  12. #12
    SitePoint Addict dbr's Avatar
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    Upgrading to PHP5

    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    The other thing that you may want to take into account is that as of the end of December PHP 4 is officialy dead and buried.
    I host with a rather large provider that only offers PHP4 which worked for me because I was just learning PHP and not ready to tackle OOP. I have a lot of code wrote that is not OOP. I am interested in getting into OOP and look forward to when they finally upgrade. I have the book "PHP in Action" which I'm enjoying and think will help me make the OOP transition. Do you have any other books or resources to suggest that would help someone get into the OOP mindset?
    So, I reckon I'll have access to PHP5 in December based on your comment?
    And, where do you receive your information?
    I'm assuming my old code will still work with PHP5 installed since it's my understanding that it is backward compatible.
    My site is not public yet, but I was thinking about launching this month.

    Appreciate your thoughts....
    "Three components make an entrepreneur:
    the person, the idea, and the resources to make it happen."
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    dbr founder of: ProximityCast.com

  13. #13
    phpLD Fanatic bronze trophy dvduval's Avatar
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    If it were me, I would get them off of my server as soon as possible. Let them know that you cannot take responsibility for a script has demonstrated it has a vulnerability. The fact the script is working fine now does not mean it does not have vulnerabilities.

    You might want to ask them point blank:
    Are you aware that I did not write this script, and that there may be vulnerabilities in the script itself?

    There is a difference between hosting, and troubleshooting a security flaw in a script. You can offer to try to help, and make sure there is a backup for him, but you should let him know that his script may be putting other customers on your server at risk also, and that a professional programmer is needed to carefully study the issue if he hopes to have it resolved. And let him know you are on his side. You would like to find a solution also, but there may be an expense involved with hiring someone to find the solution.

  14. #14
    SitePoint Wizard
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowbox View Post
    Surely he agreed to your terms and conditions? If so, doesn't this cover all these issues? You cant be forced to host someone, so if he isn't willing to secure his scripts, why don't you dump him and refund any outstanding hosting fees he paid in advance? Why would you even waste your time worrying about him, I don't think anyone would want to keep a client who threatened to sue. I really dont see what the big deal is - just terminate the agreement and move on.
    This is absurd and I totally agree with Shadow here. There's nothing that says that you have to do business with everyone you meet and now that you've seen how he works, you need to put some distance between you two.

    As already mentioned though it really comes down to the contract you made with this guy to host his site. In the few cases where I've hosted clients sites I've always indicated that I can change or cancel the agreement with 30 days written notice, so I'd say give him reasonable notice (a week or two) and ask him to find his own host and deal with this website himself.

    Wow, some people really have nerve!

  15. #15
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by lorenw View Post
    @shadowbox
    yes but he will sue anyway, he knows I am shoestring but he will claim he was making 10,000 dollars per day (or could have).
    So let him sue. You can't be held to ransom over your own services. Hosting companies chuck people off their servers every day, usually without ANY notice. No lawyer would take this case on, as he has no case. Worse case scenario is that you have no ToS (I suspect you haven't, otherwise what is the point of having termination clauses if you are too scared to invoke them), so you follow a sensible course of 30 days notice by registered letter, plus sweeten the guy by offering to help him move to a new host. As an extreme measure, refund him ALL his hosting fees for this year.

    If he still tries to sue, what is he going to sue you for? No one will take this seriously, certainly no judge. You are allowed to cancel service contracts. And if you are a shoestring, what on earth is he going to achieve by suing you?

    You need to stop fretting so much and take control of your own business.

  16. #16
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    If you have a tos, it might say that the tos is whatever it is that day.

    In that case, change it to whatever suits the situation.

    In any case, read up on "force majeure". You cannot provide what you don't have and cannot obtain.

    Finally, no host should be fixing scripts for clients without full liability releases.

    And, you need to dump this client.

    It's no wonder he came wandering in the door after having "issues" with the previous host. They were probably glad to see him leave.

  17. #17
    King of Paralysis by Analysis bronze trophy
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    First of all, has been said many times already in this thread.

    What does the TOS he agreed to when he came on board say? If you're hosting without a TOS then you've got potentially bigger issues than this fool.

    Quote Originally Posted by lorenw View Post
    yes but he will sue anyway, he knows I am shoestring but he will claim he was making 10,000 dollars per day (or could have).
    You don't sue people based on what you could have made, or at least you don't win judgements based on that so that won't be a problem.

    after helping him his true colors showed, help a snake and he will strike you. It doesn't matter what the ageement states he will sue,
    Unlikely, the ones who huff and puff are the least likely to be the ones that sue in the end.

    Anyway, if you're set up properly you have almost nothing to worry about. A proper TOS and a proper corporate setup will pretty much protect you from anything in the hosting business.

  18. #18
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    One thing that keeps coming up on Sitepoint is the 'they will sue' concept. I wish people would take a more sober view of things are realize that if someone has no legal claim/case against you, it won't really matter if they sue because they won't get anywhere with it. In most cases, they won't be able to get an attorney on board and even if they do a meritless case won't get far in court.

    You see cases on TV where people are suing big companies for ridiculous things, but those are very, very well funded efforts with specific goals in mind. For small business contracts, it's unthinkable.

    Don't react to these kinds of things except to send registered/certified mail to the plaintiff-to-be explaining your position (so that you have things nicely documented) then ignore it.

    It's just not true that you can 'sue anyone for anything' and clean them out.
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    SitePoint Wizard lorenw's Avatar
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    It's no wonder he came wandering in the door after having "issues" with the previous host. They were probably glad to see him leave.
    I'm sure they were glad to see him go. It took a few months to see him as a potential problem.
    What I lack in acuracy I make up for in misteaks

  20. #20
    SitePoint Wizard lorenw's Avatar
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    These are my terms.
    http://wlmark.com/Web_Hosting-Terms/

    I might be paranoid but feel he would sue anyone for anything. I think he made his money by suing or leveraging people.
    What I lack in acuracy I make up for in misteaks

  21. #21
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lorenw View Post
    These are my terms.
    http://wlmark.com/Web_Hosting-Terms/

    I might be paranoid but feel he would sue anyone for anything. I think he made his money by suing or leveraging people.
    Well, it looks to me like you cut/pasted those from another site and threw your name in there. Did you even read the terms or take a moment to format them? There doesn't appear to be much mention of web hosting at all in there, as this appears to be ripped off from a website that was using it as the terms and conditions for their website, not for their hosting services.

    Legally, you haven't dictated any termination clause whatsoever so there is no indication as to how long you promised to host this client. My guess is that an attorney or judge would want to learn what kind of history or understanding you have with this client and would ask how often you send them a bill (i.e. are you on a monthly cycle with them?), etc. Regardless, it doesn't sound like there is anything that prohibits you from dropping them as a hosting client and it's unclear what you think you'd be sued for.

    I would say that you are, in fact, being a bit paranoid by fearing this lawsuit that can't even be defined or explained.

    However, if what you showed is is what you are relying upon for legal protection as a hosting business, you are really taking some risks and could get seriously screwed if you did have a legit legal conflict.

    You also have a 'terms' page in the hosting section of your site and one of the terms is 'Web Hosting: The client understands that any web hosting services require a separate contract with the web hosting service.'

    Was a separate contract executed?

    There is also a clause that says:

    "WL Mark Web Development reserves the right to refuse service for any material that the WL Mark Web Development feels are not legal, moral or in the best interest of WL Mark Web Development, but WL Mark Web Development is not responsible for the content of any materials. "

    This essentially says that you can bail out of a service that isn't in your interest, and hosting something that you can't host is certainly not in your interest. So, that would work in your favor but did you get your client to read or accept these terms in any way? Putting them on the website doesn't prove that the client understood or accepted them as part of a deal, and that acceptance is REQUIRED to make a contract (whether verbal or written) enforceable.

    Still, just send a registered/certified letter to the client and be done with this. It's unlikely you'd get sued and it's not even clear what you'd get sued for.
    The fewer our wants, the nearer we resemble the gods. — Socrates

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    SitePoint Enthusiast guioconnor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lorenw View Post
    @shadowbox
    yes but he will sue anyway, he knows I am shoestring but he will claim he was making 10,000 dollars per day (or could have).
    I think anything I had to say was already said before me, but I'll say it anyway. People can't go out and about and sue people based on their on thoughts. You can't sue someone if you don't have a lawful right being neglected.

    There is no law that I ever heard of that could oblige you to keep a client if you don't want. You have the right to do business with whoever you want and it is obvious you don't want to keep business with this one.

    You have to check on your contract what are your obligations before terminating the contract and respect them (Notice time, refunds, etc), for the rest, just give him a farewell and is HIS duty to keep HIS site going and his business profitable.

    He can't just build a site and put you in burden of his business on your shoulders forever. If you don't want it, just drop it.

    Quote Originally Posted by lorenw View Post
    He is a snake. I found out too late.
    You can't do business expecting people to be nice, that is why contracts are for.

    If people are nice, you might never had to use the clauses on your contract, but if they are not they protect you so the bigger problem they can bring you is a headache.

    That said, I am not a lawyer and if you, like me, don't know the subtleties of the termination process, you'd better get legal help, but certainly you can terminate this contract without much further ado.
    Guilherme Zühlke O'Connor
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  23. #23
    SitePoint Wizard lorenw's Avatar
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    Yes, I totally ripped all of my legal stuff off from a friends site who also does web hosting. (With Permission) My website is in major need of an overhaul, I know and I will start with the terms and conditions.

    All of my work basically comes from word of mouth and contracts with web design companies.

    I only host the sites I design except for him. And I do have a signed contract for those clients.

    Contact your provider and give them sight of the letter you received. It is in their interests to help you. As a reseller you should always use the same terms and conditions as your provider.
    I took your advice and my hosting company said to basically use their terms and conditions. They also mentioned that since my client was hacked and has not taken any corrective action I should give them 48 hrs notice to correct whatever the issue was.

    and is HIS duty to keep HIS site going and his business profitable.

    He can't just build a site and put you in burden of his business on your shoulders forever. If you don't want it, just drop it.
    Brilliant! I see my options as.

    a) Keep hosting his website, it will not work after the upgrade and is his responsibility to keep his scripts updated and working for his business. I cannot prevent the server upgrade and use that as my defense.

    b) Take the security issue to task and notify him that he has x ammount of time to resolve the issue. it has been a year since he was hacked however if no attempt to determine the cause or implement a fix has happened, the vulnerability is still there and could potentially compromise the server. This puts the burden directly on his shoulder.

    Was a separate contract executed?
    Yes,

    It does state that "in the event of any dispute, (between us) that the customer be allowed the continuing and uninterupted use of his website."

    We are not in a dispute.

    "said intellectual property will not be removed, shut down, made inoperable or interfered with in whole or in part or in any way."

    I have no intention of interfering with his intellectual property but what if his intelectual property poses a security risk to others?.

    It also states that if my server just goes away that I will relocate his site to another server for no fee.

    I have no problem with that and would be happy to do that. He hired several people to make his site work on a number of different severs and they all failed. I was able to do it and he knows he will not find anyone who can do this.

    I really thank you for the replies and questions, this, if it happens will be my first brush with legal stuff.
    What I lack in acuracy I make up for in misteaks

  24. #24
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lorenw View Post
    It does state that "in the event of any dispute, (between us) that the customer be allowed the continuing and uninterupted use of his website."

    We are not in a dispute.
    What a bizarre agreement. Is the word 'dispute' defined because it seems like you are in some kind of dispute to me.

    I would certainly update your legal language and maybe try to understand it a bit better next time around.
    The fewer our wants, the nearer we resemble the gods. — Socrates

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  25. #25
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by lorenw View Post
    Yes, I totally ripped all of my legal stuff off from a friends site who also does web hosting. (With Permission)
    Seems to be a popular set of terms to rip http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en...G=Search&meta=


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