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  1. #26
    SitePoint Evangelist
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    Very interesting thread. Not personally run into this problem but I do know exactly what you mean.

  2. #27
    SitePoint Guru rageh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanhellyer View Post
    I would take the focus of 'where' they are getting the work done and concentrate on how much they are paying for it. The internet is truly international and if someone in India is as good as you are, then the chances are they will be charging the same prices. If they are not as good as you, then chances are they will be charging less - which is they case at hand.
    Exactly. The demand for good developers is high no matter where they are. If you find someone extraordinarily cheap, the chances are that they are newbies presenting themselves as professionals.

    As many commenters said above, if client is obsessive with cost as opposed to quality, stay away from them. The hassle is too much.

    Not long ago, one of my clients said that he found a web designer (here in UK, not in India) who would develop another site for him for far less than I would charge. He had discussed with me about the requirement of the new website just a month earlier. And I had given him a rough idea as to how much I would charge. When he told me he found a new developer, I said OK. Good luck. He was going to the other web designer purely because he was cheaper.

    He is still my client as I do some maintenance work for him. Many months now passed since that and the client did not get any new website yet. If he asks me again to do that website for him, my answer will be NO thank you. He had his chance to work with me but he chose someone else. It will stay that way. He is already a difficult client.
    ------------------

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by adesignrsa View Post
    The comments about value, specifically default's have been very useful in this thread. I couldn't agree more. Next time I'm face with a price haggler, I'm going to use the value card.
    I would be careful of this approach. At no point did I ever raise the value card. I simply asked why they had decided to move, they told me it was a price issue and I simply replied that I was not willing to reduce my charge to them. It was as simple as that. I have overheads, I have a mortgage to pay and I need to make a profit, as do they. They only understood my value after they had been burnt.

    Often as a web designer and / or developer for small companies you are party to sensitive information. I knew what they were charging for their particular services, i've no idea how successful they are but I had a good idea of what their income was. I knew they could afford me but they wanted to try and squeeze me. They were already on a low rate in the understanding that they would refer me to their clients and associates and acquaintances. Not once did they bother.

    Thats why I was not bothered when they moved. Thats why I only took them back on double the original rate.

  4. #29
    Web Design Addict
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    It's true that a lot of the time you get what you pay for, and the guy charging some 5 dollars and hour for a website design/development will be of lesser quality. The problem lies with the client. Most clients are not tech savvy. I'm willing to guess that to a lot of them, the internet is still this magical world that they are to scared to really dive into. They don't see what we see and their definition of "quality" is usually FAR off what a designers definition of quality is. When the client doesn't understand the difference between what is a quality design and a poor design.

    If anyone is interested I wrote a blog post that relates to this topic: If you're a web developer your skills are inferior to other professionals
    Deron Sizemore
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    My Sites: LogoGala | Golf Ledger (coming soon)
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  5. #30
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    I agree with most of these posts, be polite, thank them for their business, but don't burn your bridges. Even if you think you may not want to work with them again in the future times change and clients talk to other potential clients.

  6. #31
    SitePoint Wizard holmescreek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcel View Post
    Offer to manage the outsourcing of their work. Since you know what's involved, it should make things easier on them.
    I disagree with this. If the party doing the outsourcing doesn't meet expectations, then the client doesn't care --- there only concern is you and will hold you accountable.

    Troublesome clients, well, do what you can to assist them. If they decide to go somewhere else that is going to let you spend more time focusing on making a new client happy vs wasting time worrying over a grump.

    In addition, I learned my lesson about outsourcing a long time ago -- ended up with sloppy code, $2K out of my pocket, and spending a lot of time doing the project myself. Lastly, I don't even fool with bid based jobs -- in most cases the govt. entity is going to hire cheap...I just wait until a year later when they come to me and want quality.
    intragenesis, llc professional web & graphic design

  7. #32
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by holmescreek View Post
    Lastly, I don't even fool with bid based jobs -- in most cases the govt. entity is going to hire cheap...
    What do you mean by this?
    The fewer our wants, the nearer we resemble the gods. Socrates

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  8. #33
    SitePoint Wizard holmescreek's Avatar
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    Well, I've played the bidding game. I just find that spending 3 days on a proposal, in my area, is a waste of time. I've just seen too many times where government/grant based bids typically go to a firm that is struggling, a firm that is going to promise a 1000 page web site (and write up the copy) for $500. Simply, I just find it more pleasant to work with clients that seek me out because they have seen my work and checked my references.
    intragenesis, llc professional web & graphic design

  9. #34
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    It's certainly best to have clients coming to you, but don't write off ALL government projects. Most governments MUST BY LAW go through an RFP process, and many of the projects are extremely lucrative and profitable. Remember, in a larger government the people who are handling the RFP have a set budget that they can spend for the project and they don't really have any need to take the lowest possible bid. There is lots and lots and lots and lots of money to be made on government projects and with some practice, it won't take 3 days to put together a proposal.
    The fewer our wants, the nearer we resemble the gods. Socrates

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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowbox View Post
    You can try to talk about issues beyond price.

    - convenience: if he needs to contact his developer quickly, someone in the same time zone is preferable. Plus there's no chance of a face-to-face.

    - legal issues: he'll have little recourse if there are any legal issues.

    - confidence: how confident is he working with someone thousands of miles away? Can their references be trusted.

    Personally, if anyone, especially an existing client suggested he was dropping me for a cheaper option, I wouldn't bother trying to convince him otherwise, I'd just say 'Best of luck with that - feel free to give me a ring if you ever want to discuss working together again'. If I get that call, they'll find my prices were even higher than before

    I agree with that three points, and I'm adding one more:

    - Acessibility: low coust styles/designers never add acessibility to an website because it "coust" extra-work.

    And you validate your websites under W3C Validator, right?


    SL

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcel View Post
    ... A freelancer in India is only cheaper because the cost of living is cheaper. ...
    Yyypeee! Let's all move to India! Now where's that cheap airline...

    Then again I'v seen "designers" charging arms and legs for plain vanilla yuck...
    Last edited by Scrooge; Nov 18, 2007 at 13:42.
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  12. #37
    SitePoint Evangelist kooshin.com's Avatar
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    Well I don't think the cost of living is cheaper in India. I have a friend who studies there and he says it all depends on what you need to use so the more your needs are the more you need more money.So saying it is cheaper is not true I guess.

    I have seen many people who would rather pay less than get a better service and compare the value in both.It is very hard to educate such clients at any cost and the best thing you can do is just to say if that is it then good luck but let me know how it goes. Cause if you do otherwise he will think first that you are desperate and also another mistake you might make is to say I will give you the same service with the new price you mentioned.

    I have seen that happen to someone who really makes me wonder what is he making.I mean the whole process of his pricing is like auction downwards lol.

  13. #38
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    There is always a relationship between cost and quality, most people make many mistakes when setting up their first website, most of these are cost related.

  14. #39
    SitePoint Addict tbakerisageek's Avatar
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    I think the biggest thing to take away from this, and I've seen it in Web design/development work, Graphics Design, and Outsourced IT solutions/computer services is that the customer bases Value on the first result they see, regardless of cost.

    The issue with this is that a customer will not understand the value of someone who is responsive, knowledgable, quick and does good work. They don't understand that not everyone is able to provide this level of Value-added service.

    They try to cut expenses, maybe after they evaluate their budget or hear that someone else did something on the cheap with another designer/developer and got "GREAT results". In reality these "great results" compared to the level of work you are already providing to YOUR customer are sub-par. but the customer needs to find that out for themselves.

    In the long run, it may increase the referral rate from the customer. they will venture out into open waters and try to get what you are doing for them cheaper, and determine you are a great value. They will then tell people about their experience and it makes you sound good!!
    Last edited by tbakerisageek; Nov 19, 2007 at 12:55.

  15. #40
    SitePoint Member Schwann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kooshin.com View Post
    Well I don't think the cost of living is cheaper in India.

    I don't know where you live but I'm pretty sure it costs more to live in the US than in India. How else could US corporations be able to hire college grads living in India and pay them $250 per month?

    Yes, you can always point out how professional and how qualified you are but it will always be more difficult to compete with people in the Third World as long as their living costs are a mere fraction of those in the US, Great Britain, etc. When you can feed your whole family for $20 a month you will always have a competitive advantage over US workers.

  16. #41
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    College grads for 1st year after college ? Mmmm...maybe. Then $500 and more and after more. Also that stats are not so true. People have side jobs, etc. And no, you can't feed your family for $20 a month.

    And...what about cars, parties, vacation, etc. ?

    $250 is not even barely minimum. Food will cost about $100 a month for 1 person.

    What you hear, what you see is nothing....to what it seems.

  17. #42
    SitePoint Member Colin Behr's Avatar
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    My clients pay around $1,600-$4,000 for a typical website. I am often up against college kids who offer "the same" for $200.

    At this point one of two things happens:

    1. They go with the college kid and call me 1 month later to redo what the college kid has done, or...
    2. They immediately recognise the vast difference in the quality of design and go with us from the outset.

    People here have already said in other threads that as a salesman you need people skills, it is not only the quality of the work which counts, but also your ability to come across as a genuine person giving advice. If you don't have this ability you should seriously consider taking someone on who does.

  18. #43
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    Colin, guy above have talked probably about China, only here you can hire now such people. India is not that cheap already.

  19. #44
    SitePoint Wizard TheRedDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SEO-Linker View Post
    College grads for 1st year after college ? Mmmm...maybe. Then $500 and more and after more. Also that stats are not so true. People have side jobs, etc. And no, you can't feed your family for $20 a month.

    And...what about cars, parties, vacation, etc. ?

    $250 is not even barely minimum. Food will cost about $100 a month for 1 person.

    What you hear, what you see is nothing....to what it seems.
    The living cost is different depending where in a country you live, this is true for India, US, Norway, Ukraine and so on.

    If you live in a major city, the living cost is usally much higher than somone living in a smaller city. One county can be more expencive than the next.

    Now when considering the living cost differences it depends how expencive it is where your located.

    For example, one month of living cost in Norway equals several months of living costs in Ukraine and even more in India.

    Its all depends what you compare it against.

  20. #45
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    Lightbulb Cost vs. Value

    IMHO, the concept of "value" varies with perspectives and could have multiple metrics, cost being one of them. For a client, it is normal to consider cost as one of the most important metric up until the point they burn their fingers.

    Although, we are an Indian web dev. company but we face similar problems quite often when we are told that another company from India is charging one-fourth of what we are. For that matter, we have had numerous cases when we have been told that our pricing is equivalent/more than our American counterparts.

    As previously mentioned in the thread, in such cases, there is no point trying to convince the client simply because:
    a.) Within IT, the profits are mainly earned from long term relations rather than 1 project worth clients (at least in our experience). Typically, at the onset, cost is the most important metric to gauge value and at any point in time, if they would have another provider come up and offer them a better "value" (i.e. cost), your client is gone!
    b.) It would almost certainly sound like "hard selling"
    c.) The client is not "mature" enough to realize the value that you bring to the table.

    The best recourse here is to be patient, understand their mindset and give the client some time to think/use other vendor's services. We all need to accept competition, specifically when it is at a Global level.

    All said and done, if another service provider is able to serve your prospect well and at half the price, then either you are over-priced or your target audience is not right. If not, rest assured, you will have your client back!

    Just my 2c worth!
    Vinove: Your WebScape Partner

  21. #46
    SitePoint Member Colin Behr's Avatar
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    Nice bit of spam.

    Just a note:
    The only ElectronicsTalk Ltd registered in the UK is currently dissolved. Seems like a classic scam to me.

  22. #47
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    Outsource can be an effective tool for growth and other measures of your Biz nature, but it does not take the place for a true knowledge, language, and most important - an intellectual base of treasures, that only you retain.

  23. #48
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    TheRedDevil, the problem is there is almost no jobs at all in NOT-major citiy of Ukraine for example. Tons of people relocate here from small towns even if it expensive.

    And... about small towns, lol. Things here are much expensive (electronics and clothes for example - cause of transportation fees) except food probably.

  24. #49
    SitePoint Evangelist old_expat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by winstonveerender View Post
    Low cost businesses don't survive for too long.
    I wonder if Walmart is aware of that?

  25. #50
    You Bet Your Life...Really lerxtjr's Avatar
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    India is not that cheap already.
    Tell your client to seek proof that the designer is really from India or Singapore or wherever. It's not only about price. Face it, it's "cool" to tell your friends that you outsourced to wherever and are doing the hip thing. So, tell them to ask for proof to make sure it's not just some 12 year old in Chicago giving them a deep discount. Don't you think that designers and developers all over the U.S. are making elance and rentacoder postings "posing" as living in another country? There are some desperate dudes out there looking for work, y'know?

    At least with you, your client knows what they're getting. Big selling point there.


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