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  1. #101
    #titanic {float:none} silver trophy
    molona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franglix View Post
    Molona, I get the impression that you thought I wrote that your answer and contribution was unnecessary. I used italics on the words 'not-needed' in the context of my understanding that you indicated the 'the special corner was not needed'. In trying to bring things together, I guess I may not have been super clear. My apologies.
    I should be the one apologising, I misunderstood what you wanted to say.

  2. #102
    Former Galactic Overlord gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy HAWK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franglix View Post
    Wouldn't it be just something worth trying out as an experiment in male-dominated sector forum - if only just on a trial basis?
    Quote Originally Posted by ejg View Post
    I agree with Molona and Datura, there is no need for a special "women's section".

    The web is about as gender-neutral as it can be. I never give a thought about whether the person who answered my post is male or female. For all I know Dan Grossman could be a 28 year old woman.

    Women in IT don't want to be accommodated for their gender. They want to be recognized for their work and respected for their ideas.
    Quote Originally Posted by Datura View Post
    There is also another point I just wanted to bring up. Here on SitePoint I was embraced by the guys, they did not ask if I was female or male, when they found out, it did not make a difference at all... I think to create a female corner would be counterproductive.
    Agreed. It takes most people here a while before they realise that I'm a girl. Once they do, they often apologise for what they've said. That bugs me.

    While I appreciate that your intention is good franglix, we women don't want to be treated any differently. Here at this forum we are developers/programmers/designers just like the rest of you.

    Edit: I should really speak for myself only...
    Last edited by HAWK; Nov 4, 2007 at 17:46.

  3. #103
    SitePoint Addict lostatsea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruby-lang View Post
    I have a half-baked controversial theory. I would elaborate on it if I had time, but the short version is:



    Therefore, women (who obviously have a predominantly 'female' brain) are statistically less inclined to working with computers. Add subtle discrimination to the mix and you have a pseudo-scientific explanation for the 20:1 disparity you see in our field.
    OMG, 'subtle discrimination' is what I am dealing with now. I am the only female. In my workplace it seems that I have no room for error. I am expected to "know it all" while my male counterpart can make numerous errors and it is passed off as being a "complex" situation.

    It is really horrible to work in an environment when you are ridiculed all the time even when you are achieving more than your male co-workers - unfortunately for me, I only have one other person on my team who is flawed - my boss. His applications are continuously flawed and his clients are really angry, while my projects are coming along just fine and my clients are happy with what I am doing for them - especially when all the other developers before me quit after 2 months of working with my boss.

  4. #104
    SitePoint Addict lostatsea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAWK View Post
    Agreed. It takes most people here a while before they realise that I'm a girl. Once they do, they often apologise for what they've said. That bugs me.

    While I appreciate that your intention is good franglix, we women don't want to be treated any differently. Here at this forum we are developers/programmers/designers just like the rest of you.

    Edit: I should really speak for myself only...

    "we women don't want to be treated any differently. Here at this forum we are developers/programmers/designers just like the rest of you."

    I totally agree with this. I really believe that women stray away from IT mainly because of the hassle from some men. Not all guys are this way thank goodness.

    I was taught by a male who introduced me to this field. He was awesome, but after him, I've had some really bad experiences with my male co-workers.

  5. #105
    SitePoint Addict lostatsea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    My last job there was a female .NET developer and a female SQL database admin in a team of eight. The .NET was an athlete and quite attractive too. At my current job it's just me, some contractors, and a marketing team of six women.

    I personally think there aren't a lot of women in programming because of the stigma involved with the category. I just think they are never exposed to it at an early stage and later on, when they are part of more complex projects involving some sort of programming, it's just to overwhelming to learn.
    "when they are part of more complex projects involving some sort of programming, it's just to overwhelming to learn."

    There's that stereotype again about programming being too complex for women to comprehend. tsk tsk

  6. #106
    Former Galactic Overlord gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy HAWK's Avatar
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    I agree, lostatsea.

    I wasn't 'exposed' to programming at all until I decided to take it up as a career. I studied an unrelated subject at university and then stumbled upon my current job. I was suddenly 'exposed' and while there were some challenges, it certainly wasn't overwhelming. I've been a .NET developer for several years now and I have always been the only female in the dev team that I'm part of.

  7. #107
    SitePoint Addict ruby-lang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostatsea View Post
    It is really horrible to work in an environment when you are ridiculed all the time even when you are achieving more than your male co-workers - unfortunately for me, I only have one other person on my team who is flawed - my boss. His applications are continuously flawed and his clients are really angry, while my projects are coming along just fine and my clients are happy with what I am doing for them - especially when all the other developers before me quit after 2 months of working with my boss.
    I'd say your main problem isn't discrimination then, it's having a jerk as your boss. Get rid of him as soon as you can, and you'll never regret it.

  8. #108
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    There are a lot of barriers for the women to come in to the software field.
    Last edited by sreeja; Nov 5, 2007 at 05:25.

  9. #109
    SitePoint Addict lostatsea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruby-lang View Post
    I'd say your main problem isn't discrimination then, it's having a jerk as your boss. Get rid of him as soon as you can, and you'll never regret it.
    I wish.

    He now wants to play games with me because my client has nothing but good things to say about me.

    Our Lotus Notes programmer, who is a male, wants to learn ColdFusion now because there are no more projects for Lotus Notes. So my boss is assuming that this guy can "show me" what to do with my job. This is funny since I "showed" my boss a few tricks. The LN guy can't even connect to a db using Dreamweaver.

  10. #110
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    Guys this thread is lacking pics.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by molona View Post
    I may be lucky because I don't feel the need to have a special corner for female developers. I think I face the same problems and issues as everyone else, so I think that any developer point of view is more than welcomed, with complete independence of gender.
    I also agree. I don't see much point in a 'female forum corner' - I get involved if I am interested in the thread or if I think I can help someone (although I do tend to lurk a lot too!). I like the non-gender specific nature of Sitepoint and have never noticed any comments that suggest that a woman member is being taken less seriously than our male counterparts.

    This thread has turned into a bit of a female-fest! Are there any men still reading this? Dan?

  12. #112
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    funny i belong to a forum where probably 60% of the members are women. some real talented designers there.

  13. #113
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostatsea View Post
    I wish.

    He now wants to play games with me because my client has nothing but good things to say about me.

    Our Lotus Notes programmer, who is a male, wants to learn ColdFusion now because there are no more projects for Lotus Notes. So my boss is assuming that this guy can "show me" what to do with my job. This is funny since I "showed" my boss a few tricks. The LN guy can't even connect to a db using Dreamweaver.
    You need to change jobs or go off on your own. If the boss you have owns the place, you will never be able to have a reasonable relationship with this person, if he is a boss in a bigger firm, then the firm is fostering and tolerating behavior like this and not likely to change either, even if the boss should change.

    My suggestion is to prepare yourself for departure. You do not need this in your life. It is hard to set your mind into this mode, but it will strengthen you much. Just the knowing that you will be out soon will get you away from those negative emotions. Your reaction to this person will be more of indifference which in turn will have you in a calm state of mind.

    This is probably not a female male issue though, it is possible to have a female boss who is just as irrational.
    Ulrike
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  14. #114
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    molona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostatsea View Post
    OMG, 'subtle discrimination' is what I am dealing with now. I am the only female. In my workplace it seems that I have no room for error. I am expected to "know it all" while my male counterpart can make numerous errors and it is passed off as being a "complex" situation.
    It is true that women have to do everything better than men in general to the point that it is blunt discrimation. But, although you are the one suffering the consequences, it is you boss problem. The only thing he will get is a valuable worker leaving the company for a better job, because at some point you will be so fed up with it that you will end up searching for a new job somewhere else, and your talent will be more appreciated it.

  15. #115
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    molona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tayf View Post
    Guys this thread is lacking pics.
    No comments there but maybe we should start with yours...

  16. #116
    SitePoint Enthusiast Kattaryna's Avatar
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    Sexism: I have only occasionally encountered in-your-face sexist prejudice, but I have definitely found that in situations where I am working with a group of 20-something male engineering graduates, I get less respect and cooperation. I haven't noticed this problem with older graduates or physics graduates. I think engineering (which launches a lot of software careers here in Canada) tends to breed more sexism than a lot of other areas. There's a whole macho culture thing in Canadian engineering schools. One time I walked into a 3rd year computer hardware class at school (where I was the only female among lots of young engineering students) to find all the other students trashing various female members of the faculty. Fortunately, our totally cool instructor walked in and gave them a serious tongue lashing, saying "It's no wonder women don't want to work with people like you!".
    I really believe, in these fields especially, once you've been around awhile you realize that if a person is here they know what they are doing. It would be very difficult to fake the knowledge programing or engineering takes.

    By the way, consider me outed as a female(silly me I thought the name made it obvious)

    I don' think we need a separate area either. I've never noticed any behavior that would put a woman off in the forums here.
    Last edited by HAWK; Nov 5, 2007 at 14:50. Reason: Quote tags fixed

  17. #117
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kattaryna View Post
    I don' think we need a separate area either. I've never noticed any behavior that would put a woman off in the forums here.
    SitePoint is extremely gender neutral I think. It seems so very normal and so very right.
    Ulrike
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  18. #118
    SitePoint Wizard Mike Borozdin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alison_taylor View Post
    Sexism: I have only occasionally encountered in-your-face sexist prejudice, but I have definitely found that in situations where I am working with a group of 20-something male engineering graduates, I get less respect and cooperation.
    Prejudice doesn't necessarily mean disrespect. I'm just not used to seeing female programmers. Of course I don't disrespect them, I just get curious when I happen to meet a female programmer, I think "Huh?", but then it's ok. I don't find it's offensive and many IT girls don't find it offensive as well, they find it's amusing how men are used to thinking that tech jobs are not for them.

  19. #119
    Former Galactic Overlord gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy HAWK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sreeja View Post
    There are a lot of barriers for the women to come in to the software field.
    Huh? Can you explain yourself?

    Quote Originally Posted by molona View Post
    It is true that women have to do everything better than men in general to the point that it is blunt discrimation.
    That is certainly not the case in my work environment. I've never come across that anywhere, in fact... which is how it should be.

  20. #120
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAWK View Post

    That is certainly not the case in my work environment. I've never come across that anywhere, in fact... which is how it should be.
    That is wonderful to hear Sarah. I certainly was at my time a trail blazer, the opposition to me was huge in many ways. The people I worked with in the end accepted me, but the other people I had to deal with, mainly engineers, were often quite abusive and tried the little lady routine.
    Ulrike
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  21. #121
    SitePoint Wizard Mike Borozdin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAWK View Post
    Huh? Can you explain yourself?

    That is certainly not the case in my work environment. I've never come across that anywhere, in fact... which is how it should be.
    That's fine and it's how it should be and I think it's how it really is. So, my question is - who cares? I think Dan was just curious about a lack of girls in IT departments. Now there is a discussion about gender roles, growing up and blah-blah-blah.

    I think the truth is simple one can take any job they want, if he/she is good at it nobody will pay attention at his/her gender. Just remember there are some traditions, for many many years the majority of scientists, engineers belonged to men.

  22. #122
    Former Galactic Overlord gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy HAWK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Datura View Post
    That is wonderful to hear Sarah. I certainly was at my time a trail blazer, the opposition to me was huge in many ways. The people I worked with in the end accepted me, but the other people I had to deal with, mainly engineers, were often quite abusive and tried the little lady routine.
    Yeah - when I first started out as an architect I dealt with some pretty awful crap from builders on job sites, so I know exactly what you mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Borozdin View Post
    That's fine and it's how it should be and I think it's how it really is. So, my question is - who cares? I think Dan was just curious about a lack of girls in IT departments. Now there is a discussion about gender roles, growing up and blah-blah-blah.
    Whoa Mike! You're standing on a few toes here! There are lots of posts in this thread that say that this is NOT how it is and that lots of the women here DO have to put up with crap at work and that THEY care about it.

  23. #123
    Follow Me On Twitter: @djg gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Grossman's Avatar
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    When I worked at Microsoft I heard a lot about a program called "DigiGirlz" where they were trying to get young girls interested in computer-related fields. I thought it was kinda funny that young girls that have an interest in computers are "DigiGirlz" while guys are just called nerds or geeks

    But the point was that they couldn't attract female workers and were trying to influence girls early on so they could in the future. I don't think there was a barrier to entry there; more like they couldn't find enough interested women to even get into an interview.

    Ah look, I found a link...
    DigiGirlz High Technology Camps

  24. #124
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Grossman View Post
    When I worked at Microsoft I heard a lot about a program called "DigiGirlz" where they were trying to get young girls interested in computer-related fields. I thought it was kinda funny that young girls that have an interest in computers are "DigiGirlz" while guys are just called nerds or geeks

    But the point was that they couldn't attract female workers and were trying to influence girls early on so they could in the future. I don't think there was a barrier to entry there; more like they couldn't find enough interested women to even get into an interview.

    Ah look, I found a link...
    DigiGirlz High Technology Camps
    That sounds like a great program, and they obviously tried to appeal to the girls with this name, since this is the way they talk to each other apparently today.

    But I understand that not many applied. When most girls (obviously not all) reach this age they are already preconditioned to reject a direction into this area as their career choice. Nothing will convince them otherwise. I find it astounding that this is still the case.

    But traditions are stronger than all else. Pity.
    Ulrike
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  25. #125
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    I just sign up today for webmaster design admin. at local college . Hope to follow it with 4 yr software eng. classes! Totally female!!! Love code.


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