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  1. #51
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    HAWK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jylyn View Post
    playing with my kitten.
    Is that euphemistic?

  2. #52
    Kiwi Fr00t jylyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAWK View Post
    Is that euphemistic?
    Yeah, OK, you're right... he's really a big ugly tomcat. I was just trying to spare his feelings.

  3. #53
    Non-Member DelvarWorld's Avatar
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    Become most women have social lives which take precedence over taking lots of solitary time to figure out code, which in itself has more reasoning, and more reasoning behind that.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by jylyn View Post
    I was just trying to spare his feelings.
    How effeminate of you.

    Quote Originally Posted by DelvarWorld View Post
    Become most women have social lives which take precedence over taking lots of solitary time to figure out code, which in itself has more reasoning, and more reasoning behind that.
    Nice sentiment. It is possible to do both however.

  5. #55
    Kiwi Fr00t jylyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelvarWorld View Post
    Become most women have social lives which take precedence over taking lots of solitary time to figure out code, which in itself has more reasoning, and more reasoning behind that.
    So really, what you're trying to say is that women are unreasonable?

  6. #56
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    I went to an engineering and management school that was owned by General Motors. Each GM division recruited and sponsored students. Whenever the student coordinator at my GM division went out recruiting I would ask him "Cass Tech or Marian?" and he would reply something like "No, Rosary". They recruited only in minority areas which was socially admirable and at female only high schools because they had plenty of males applying but had to persuade the girls that they wanted to be engineers. The sad thing was many of the girls got to the school and soon left.

    There are observable differences for most girls versus most boys and I don't think we should try to push people into fields where they don't have an aptitude. I tried nudging my daughter to graphic design but she says she's more interested in education. I am going to help her in her pursuit and not try to recruit her to the old engineering school on the banks of the mighty Flint River.
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashleyk View Post
    I absolutely believe that it is the passiveness of our society and educational system that fails to shape young minds to take an interest in the math and sciences.
    There are some who maintain that students in the increasingly privatized U.S. education system are being deliberately dumbed down, something that makes sense in the larger context of globalization. Do some research on Bill Gates' H1 Visa campaign. Do the powers that control our economy and education system exploit gender issues for their own selfish purposes?

    The traditional argument is that high-tech jobs just aren't as emotionally fulfilling as fields such as education and nursing...something I'd generally agree with except that education has gone steeply downhill.

  8. #58
    Follow Me On Twitter: @djg gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Grossman's Avatar
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    I don't think the answer is that there's some kind of government conspiracy involved here.. especially not one involving Bill Gates.. as much as you'd like that.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Grossman View Post
    I don't think the answer is that there's some kind of government conspiracy involved here.. especially not one involving Bill Gates.. as much as you'd like that.
    I wouldn't suggest that some government/corporate conspiracy is the root cause of the gender gap in high-tech employment, but I do think there are forces that would exploit an existing gender gap. It's hard to imagine why they would want to recruit a large number of women, minorities or whatever if their ultimate goal is to outsource jobs. And please don't tell me you're unaware that outsourcing is a significant factor in this industry. The facts (e.g. current events) speak volumes - and Bill Gates is indeed a major player (as much as you'd like everyone to think otherwise).

    Of course, that wouldn't necessarily have a huge impact on women who are more independent, such as freelance web designers. Indeed, I would expect economic conditions to steer more people, men and women alike, towards such jobs.

  10. #60
    ... Megan.G's Avatar
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    I'm not a Developer, but I am learning

    At uni there are 3 girls in a class of 25 males - Us girls rock it, even though we are the minority.

    At work there are 5 woman, our accountant - Julia, 2 Editors (G and Hilary) and Adele (Office Manager) and myself. We aren't developers, but our jobs are heavily involved in different areas of IT.

    Mark, Luke and the other team members are very encouraging when it comes to me learning
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  11. #61
    RTFM ashleyk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAWK View Post
    Holy hell. I'm not quite sure how to respond to this.
    I did one of the first computer studies degrees in the UK - prior to that they were always mixed with maths. To get people onto it they dropped the requirement to have maths A level (which was fortunate for me!) and actively touted round for languages students. As a result, the year was around 50/50 male/female - and the women were just as good as the men.
    it was sarcasm. it was said that women didn't start approaching the class until the standards were lowered, Jmouse admitted that was a good thing for her, i can only speculate that it was good because she either wouldn't have tried or she wouldn't have met the requirements.

    Here in the US, with our crazy media focusing on what young actress has done what drug, and who the next american idol will be, i don't think it's inappropriate to use satire to sum up what today's young women are more focused on....

    sorry to offend, but as harsh it it sounds, it's kind of true for many young women here, i can't respond to how the UK works, i hope you all across the pond have it better.
    Last edited by ashleyk; Nov 1, 2007 at 11:37. Reason: typo
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    how does a designer get roped into writing code?

  12. #62
    SitePoint Zealot franglix's Avatar
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    Well I think must be the exception over here in France. Out of the three PHP developers I work with, two are women. I think I should technically refer to them as 'développeurs'.

  13. #63
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  14. #64
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    Because tech stuff is generally not the stuff that interests an average woman. As much as we all like to go "EQUALITY PLZ", there are some very obvious differences between the average man and the average woman. I don't think this is going to change anytime soon either.

    How many car mechanics are women?

    Why should we even care? Equality isn't when your colleagues are 50% men and 50% women, it's when you don't care whether or not they are women or men. If you want more women in your class, go take a public relations course or something, you'll get laid every night.

  15. #65
    SitePoint Wizard Lil_Red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Grossman View Post
    Why are there no women in my computer science classes at college?

    Why, when I worked at Microsoft and DuPont, were there plenty of female managers but nearly no female developers around?

    Why are they not choosing a major where more people are retiring from the workforce than graduating, meaning not only are there jobs, but employers are willing to fight for you to work for *them* instead of someone else?

    There were plenty of females in my organic chemistry classes. And I'm finishing a math minor... there are more females in the most advanced math classes at the university than in the entry level programming classes. Math isn't easier than computer science, they're essentially the same in many ways. The jobs you can get with a degree in mathematics... analysts, statisticians... are they more interesting than being a software developer or engineer?

    Things seem to be getting worse. What's causing this gender gap?
    You think it's bad now. I'm female and I was taking computer science in the late 80s. In most of my CS classes, there were at most 2 or 3 women including myself in classes of 30 or more.

    A big part of the gender gap is men. Since the early days of computers, men have dominated the field and they have been very reluctant to allow women into the field. It's also hard to get a job after college because employers perceive women as less reliable (when's the last time you saw a pregnant man?). Not only do women get pregnant, they take more time off to care for children.

  16. #66
    SitePoint Enthusiast sarahG's Avatar
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    I've done Computer Science, I have a Maths and Computing degree, and I'm a full time PHP developer running my own business and working from home.

    I can't write, design or sell. Give me a maths problem or PHP code any day

    From my personal experience in the UK I would say that it's down to the stereotype of a computer programmer being a Nerd/Geek. It's only been in the last 10 years that most homes have suddenly got a computer due to a drop in prices and the availability of pay as you go internet access. Computers are now seen as cool as opposed to nerdy, and so is having a web site.

  17. #67
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    Mark, Matthew, Luke, Peter

    Quote Originally Posted by Megan.G View Post
    Mark, Luke and the other team members are very encouraging when it comes to me learning
    It sounds like you work with The Apostles !
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  18. #68
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    Talking We are here!

    We are here - just hard to come by!

  19. #69
    SitePoint Enthusiast Kattaryna's Avatar
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    http://www.janeelliott.com/index.htm

    This is a website about racism but the theory she proved, very controversially, can be applied to men and women avoiding certain fields.

    As a single mom of 3 girls I am very aware of the American school system and teachers(mostly female) having very discriminatory views when it comes to male & female students. Boys are better at math and logic based studies where girls are better at English and other more intuitive studies.

    By 4th grade, teachers(subconsciously?) start calling on the boys much more frequently in Math and Science and on the girls much more frequently in English and Social Studies.

    I personally sat in on my 3 daughters 5th grade class on several occasions for each. (They each actually had the same teacher, different years of course) After sitting in on the oldest one's classes I sat down and had a conversation with the teacher(a very intelligent and wonderful teacher in many respects) about her actually displaying this type of behavior. She did not agree with me that she was doing this but, 2 months later she pulled me over in the hall and thanked me for pointing this out to her. She had spent that time paying close attention to her choices and found that she really was choosing boys much more frequently during math and science and girls during english and social studies.

    This problem is most certainly a large contributer to women not getting into programming and developing.

  20. #70
    ... Megan.G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ParkinT View Post
    It sounds like you work with The Apostles !
    Anyone that puts up with my naive questions is pretty good in my books
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  21. #71
    SitePoint Addict StuckRUs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franglix View Post
    Well I think must be the exception over here in France. Out of the three PHP developers I work with, two are women. I think I should technically refer to them as 'développeurs'.
    No you're not. For the past 20 years I've been managing corporate IT development teams in the UK and I'd guess they were 50/50.

    Maybe it's the European Education System or maybe our equality laws.
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  22. #72
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    I think it is a cultural thing. If you stop and think about it, for a very long time, video games were almost exclusively targeted at boys. Also, it seemed a lot more guys used computers growing up then girls.

    But, like everyone else, same thing here. I know of 1 girl in the computer science program and none in the computer information systems or engineering programs.

  23. #73
    SitePoint Zealot Dorsey's Avatar
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    All the female developers are in TV dramas where they outnumber (and always outsmart) the men; if there are any gender stereotypes, that's where you'll find them.

    Social issues and all that other blather about subconscious gender stereotyping are excuses for not pushing your kids to do the hard work. My wife and daughter are both engineers, as is my mother-in-law (Stanford, Penn State, and Temple, respectively), so here we have good examples of three generations (dating to before WW II) who accomplished their goals without whining and blaming others for "holding them back". The real problem is that it's easier to take "soft" courses like political science or psychology that qualify you for a receptionist position than to put in the hard work to obtain a degree in math or science.

  24. #74
    SitePoint Enthusiast JMouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashleyk View Post
    it was sarcasm. it was said that women didn't start approaching the class until the standards were lowered, Jmouse admitted that was a good thing for her, i can only speculate that it was good because she either wouldn't have tried or she wouldn't have met the requirements
    Too right I wouldn't have met the requirements - I suck at maths!. BUT I am an organised, logical thinker and always found programming easy. By removing the requirement for maths, it allowed someone who would not otherwise have been considered to make a success out of it.

    My point was only that if we insist on a 'male friendly' entrance route into IT we miss out on all the excellent women. I don't think we're necessarily going to be able to stop women dropping maths/science at school (although we should keep trying) but we should be able to get a number of them back later.

  25. #75
    ¬.¬ shoooo... silver trophy logic_earth's Avatar
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    I see quite a few girls going to ITT, tho I think most of them are in the Criminal Justice field. Have had at least 1 girl in my computer classes.

    Early quarter classes we had programming 101 had least four girl if I remember correctly.

    My current computers classes are: Windows Server 2003 part 2 (no girls), Linux part 1 (1 girl).
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