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  1. #1
    SitePoint Guru Rob_D's Avatar
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    Question Using Mac Mini as a server using XP. Any reason why not?

    I am considering using a Mac Mini as a server for a small company network (12 PCs/Macs), using Boot Camp and XP Pro. Reasons are:

    1. Cheaper than buying a bespoke box and installing XP.
    2. All the drivers come from one source (Apple).
    3. Buying a Dell or HP box includes all their annoying proprietary software (pop ups and other annoyances).

    Everyone will have their documents stored on the Mac using network drives.

    Daily backups will be via Retrospect, a mail server installed with POP only, and I will be installing a hefty document management system.

    I AM concerned about the limited amount of storage (160GB), in which case I may go for an iMac or consider external drives. Are external drives feasible for this purpose?

    Can anyone think of a reason for NOT using a Mac?
    It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value.
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  2. #2
    SitePoint Wizard holmescreek's Avatar
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    I have a Mac mini with dual core 1.8ghz, 2G of ram and a Lacie 250GB firewire drive. I run apps from the FW drive and can't really tell the difference vs the internal sata drive. So, you could easily attach a fw drive (or three) for a file servers. In addition you could use a Network storage device that has its on ip. Remember to figure in another external drive or some means of making daily backups -- in case you ever have a drive failure (I would recommend 2 external backup drives that way you can rotate them out and keep one offsite at all times in case of a disaster)

    The little mac mini's are awesome creatures!

    There are several companies that are using mac minis for web servers as well.
    intragenesis, llc professional web & graphic design

  3. #3
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    If you want to use desktop-class hardware and operating systems as a server, I guess the Mac Mini is as good as any other PC. But you're using desktop class hardware and operating systems for a server, not a good idea in general.

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    Not sure what type of load you're expecting, but it might burst into flames. Mac mini in conserving space isn't good at heat dissipation like all machines sff and smaller.

    You might want to leave the cover off.

  5. #5
    SitePoint Guru Rob_D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by c3r3br0 View Post
    Not sure what type of load you're expecting, but it might burst into flames. Mac mini in conserving space isn't good at heat dissipation like all machines sff and smaller.

    You might want to leave the cover off.
    Perhaps an iMac is better for this...
    It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value.
    Arthur C. Clarke

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    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_D View Post
    Perhaps an iMac is better for this...
    I don't think an iMac will do much better of a job as a server than a mini honestly. It's a better job for something like an XServe or Dell Poweredge

  7. #7
    SitePoint Author silver trophybronze trophy
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    I wouldn't do it. I don't think the mac mini is really setup to be run 24x7x365. Nor can you have RAID arrays. We don't even deploy desktops without mirrored RAID these days, nevermind servers.

    PS: Wasn't there some guy who was making redundant arrays of mac minis to act as servers?

  8. #8
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    I was once told that an xBox was used as a server, so I really don't see why it wouldn't be able to do the job you are wanting to do. What purpose will it serve?

    Since you state that there are 12 PC/Macs, why are you using a Mac as the server instead of a PC? You said that you're using XP as the server OS, so I'm just curious as to why you're going to strain your resources on a Mac by emulating XP, rather than to just use one of the PCs.

    Why are you using XP? I think there are a lot of details missing, that could be used to give more case-specific advice. Personally, I would think it would be better to use Linux on a Unix box or to use XP on a Windows box, so I'm just wondering why this particular setup is being used. Why isn't the "server" being switched with a PC?

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    The Mac Mini hardware is not really the issue, its using Win XP Pro as a "server" in what is effectively a peer-to-peer network that will most likely cause problems.

    In a five or six Win XP user group this will be manageable but when you hit 10/12 clients of mixed OS things are going to get complicated.

    In this situation I would buy a cheap dell and install a *nix variant, or if the budget stretches OS X Server or a Microsoft Server product.


    Since you state that there are 12 PC/Macs, why are you using a Mac as the server instead of a PC? You said that you're using XP as the server OS, so I'm just curious as to why you're going to strain your resources on a Mac by emulating XP, rather than to just use one of the PCs.
    In this instance its not emulation, its dual boot. Bootcamp is Apples version of a dual boot system, no emulation or virtualisation involved its a straight boot into Win XP.

  10. #10
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    As long as you use a server app to interact with the server and the clients can interact with the app without problems, then I don't see a reason why it couldn't handle 12 people, especially if they were not always using it simultaneously. Even our old network printer with 96 MB of RAM that handles up to 20 or 30 people in the queue is able to keep up.

    I still think there are a lot of details that have been left out. lol

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guru6 View Post
    As long as you use a server app to interact with the server and the clients can interact with the app without problems, then I don't see a reason why it couldn't handle 12 people, especially if they were not always using it simultaneously. Even our old network printer with 96 MB of RAM that handles up to 20 or 30 people in the queue is able to keep up.

    I still think there are a lot of details that have been left out. lol
    Win XP Pro is not a server app, its a client OS. Your old printer with 96mb of memory is a printer, the print queue is being handled by the client PC its connected to.

  12. #12
    SitePoint Author silver trophybronze trophy
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    I missed this:

    I will be installing a hefty document management system
    Do you really want to run a document management system of a single, smallish 7200 rpm drive supplied by the lowest bidder?

    Buy yourself a decent server-class box from HP or Dell with a server OS and enough spindles to handle the load. And a good support plan.

  13. #13
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    This is unfortunately the problem.

    It has taken me 3 full years to convince one client to move from a 5 unit peer-to-peer with one "server" to a true client server setup.

    Why cant I store this, why cant we store all, why cant we receive and distribute, why cant I use this piece of crap unit I found online for $50 as a network fax router, why can't I stop x,y and z from looking at my documents, when can I restrict internet access.

    On a peer-to-peer network built from ****ing crappy deals at your local PC World supplied with XP Home you have no chance. How many times have I told you to buy from dell, or evsham, or where-the-****-ever. but buy with xp pro, or even now vista business .. but no, you turn up yet again with some ****off special with a copy of vista retard or XP Home.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by default View Post
    Win XP Pro is not a server app, its a client OS. Your old printer with 96mb of memory is a printer, the print queue is being handled by the client PC its connected to.
    ?

    XP Pro is an OS. The machine it's on can be used as a server, regardless of the hardware involved. (Go back to my xBox example, although I believe Linux was the OS used.)

    If the print queue is handled by the client PC, then why can you see other user's documents in the queue? I'm not a printer expert, but I assumed that the printer handled the queue.

    Anyway, an XP Pro machine is fine as a server. If you don't think so, check out my site that gets several hits per day. Unfortunately, there is a simultaneous user limit for IIS on XP, but I don't think I get enough traffic to have to worry about that.

    Moving on, a server app is anything that acts as a gateway between the client and the server. The forum that we're posting in now is using a web site as a server app. It's one of the most compatible methods to use, and I think it would be a great way to set up this system, in fact, since there is a mix of OSs that will be interacting with the server. (There are people posting here on a Mac, people posting here on Linux, and I'm definitely on XP pro, and we're all using the sitepoint server, for instance.) A web form would be an easy way that I could use to handle document uploads and even create a document manager. That's without even considering the already-made applications that are out there for just such an idea.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guru6 View Post
    ?

    XP Pro is an OS. The machine it's on can be used as a server, regardless of the hardware involved. (Go back to my xBox example, although I believe Linux was the OS used.)

    If the print queue is handled by the client PC, then why can you see other user's documents in the queue? I'm not a printer expert, but I assumed that the printer handled the queue.

    Anyway, an XP Pro machine is fine as a server. If you don't think so, check out my site that gets several hits per day. Unfortunately, there is a simultaneous user limit for IIS on XP, but I don't think I get enough traffic to have to worry about that.

    Moving on, a server app is anything that acts as a gateway between the client and the server. The forum that we're posting in now is using a web site as a server app. It's one of the most compatible methods to use, and I think it would be a great way to set up this system, in fact, since there is a mix of OSs that will be interacting with the server. (There are people posting here on a Mac, people posting here on Linux, and I'm definitely on XP pro, and we're all using the sitepoint server, for instance.) A web form would be an easy way that I could use to handle document uploads and even create a document manager. That's without even considering the already-made applications that are out there for just such an idea.
    one character?

    [Redacted]
    Last edited by wwb_99; Sep 20, 2007 at 17:27. Reason: cleanup

  16. #16
    SitePoint Author silver trophybronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guru6 View Post
    ?
    If the print queue is handled by the client PC, then why can you see other user's documents in the queue? I'm not a printer expert, but I assumed that the printer handled the queue.
    That really depends on the printer and how you are making it available to clients. Eventually the printer had to handle the documents, but unless you were printing to an IP port, then it had some intermediary help from something.

    Anyway, an XP Pro machine is fine as a server. If you don't think so, check out my site that gets several hits per day. Unfortunately, there is a simultaneous user limit for IIS on XP, but I don't think I get enough traffic to have to worry about that.
    I checked out your site. Aesthetic issues aside, it is very, very slow. You might want to work on your .NET skills, nevermind your HTML/CSS skills. Furthermore, using XP as a web server outside of local situations is a violation of the license and serving a website on your home internet connection is probably a violation of your terms of service.

    Moving on, a server app is anything that acts as a gateway between the client and the server. The forum that we're posting in now is using a web site as a server app. It's one of the most compatible methods to use, and I think it would be a great way to set up this system, in fact, since there is a mix of OSs that will be interacting with the server. (There are people posting here on a Mac, people posting here on Linux, and I'm definitely on XP pro, and we're all using the sitepoint server, for instance.) A web form would be an easy way that I could use to handle document uploads and even create a document manager. That's without even considering the already-made applications that are out there for just such an idea.
    You are correct in a technical sense--a server is anything acting as a server in a client-server model. That said, if you are running a business, you really should use proper hardware and software to run things. Aside from licensing issues, if it is a mission-critical system you don't want it to go down because the OS melted down under load or because some el-cheapo hard drive failed.

  17. #17
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    My printers at work are connected to the PCs via IP, so I guess I was right? I figured we were talking professionally, and not about home use, since he mentioned it was for a small business. Then again, a home configuration would probably be all that was necessary. Nevertheless, how many MB of RAM would that need? I'm assuming its primary purpose would be to only act as a server, unlike a primary focus for all major apps.

    LOL Trust me, my web pages are only slow when I'm using 935 MB of RAM out of 1GB... AND UPLOADING TORRENTS (ROFL). During the day, when it really matters, it's fine. If you want me to stop playing on my server and take some screenshots of my superb html and css skills, along with the 2-5 second page load times, I would be more than happy to. Before you talk about how poor my skill is, I suggest you at least take a look at the code... You really have no clue as to what you are talking about, but I apologize for currently maxing out my resources. I'm just being too lazy to use one of the other PCs. BTW, I didn't even notice you were browsing the site. It didn't affect the performance of anything I was doing at all. The slowness is strictly due to the uploads going on and the very limited upload bandwidth of my ISP. Out of curiosity, are you one of the guys on dial-up? Even if I clear my cache, it still loads fast for me...

    What were you saying again about it being slow? http://img210.imageshack.us/my.php?i...tskillsik8.jpg It looks like it says 2 seconds to me, and the page is less than 15KB in size. ??? I'm still uploading torrents too. Perhaps you could back up your smack talk?

    As for it being a violation of the license, how is that? I'm not selling anything. It's fine to use it for personal use. As for it violating my terms of service, I suppose the 3 DSL representatives I talked to when trying to get around the lost ability to SMTP mail should have mentioned that hosting a site on a residential connection was a violation of the TOS. Between the 3, they were all pretty lost... Finally one of the managers/techs were found that could at least explain the situation, and the block was lifted... I guess there goes that theory about it being illegal that way too...

    lol If you think my site is ugly, that's based on what, the picture of lightning? LOL Uh, ok. Anyway, I could care less. It's there to serve a purpose, not to look pretty... I'm not posting poems on it... ROFL I don't roll that way.

    Maybe you should at least try develop a site on a host, (let alone one that is more complicated such as one on your local network), before you try to pass judgment on someone else's?

    Seriously, you guys recommending server boxes for a group of 12 people is really way out there... The xBox handled about 30 simultaneous users or so... That was a classroom that pulled some files for viewing at basically the same times during the class... ??? You're wanting him to get a server for 12 people??? My PCs are fast, but they're not server-class... Heck, I knew a guy that was using a Pentium 3 box with linux to serve just as many people...
    Last edited by Guru6; Sep 20, 2007 at 19:28.

  18. #18
    SitePoint Author silver trophybronze trophy
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    LOL Trust me, my web pages are only slow when I'm using 935 MB of RAM out of 1GB... AND UPLOADING TORRENTS (ROFL). During the day, when it really matters, it's fine. If you want me to stop playing on my server and take some screenshots of my superb html and css skills, along with the 2-5 second page load times, I would be more than happy to.
    Well, the site you have posted is a horror of tables, combined with some rather poor ASP.NET code. You do know you can turn off viewstate, right?

    2-5 second load times are horrible, and 15kb for a page of that nature is atrocious. A half-second and 5kb is more reasonable.

    Before you talk about how poor my skill is, I suggest you at least take a look at the code... You really have no clue as to what you are talking about, but I apologize for currently maxing out my resources. I'm just being too lazy to use one of the other PCs. BTW, I didn't even notice you were browsing the site. It didn't affect the performance of anything I was doing at all. The slowness is strictly due to the uploads going on and the very limited upload bandwidth of my ISP. Out of curiosity, are you one of the guys on dial-up? Even if I clear my cache, it still loads fast for me...
    So you are hosting your site on your main home PC? That is a recipe for disaster, or at least service outage. From a security standpoint, you really don't want holes punched through the firewall to client boxes, and web servers should be web servers, not web servers/gaming machines. Of course it loads fast for you--after all, you are running it over the loopback interface.

    As for it being a violation of the license, how is that? I'm not selling anything. It's fine to use it for personal use. As for it violating my terms of service, I suppose the 3 DSL representatives I talked to when trying to get around the lost ability to SMTP mail should have mentioned that hosting a site on a residential connection was a violation of the TOS. Between the 3, they were all pretty lost... Finally one of the managers/techs were found that could at least explain the situation, and the block was lifted... I guess there goes that theory about it being illegal that way too...
    Non-server windows licenses are pretty explicit about not hosting public-facing websites on them. The only reason IIS is on XP pro is for development purposes and local apps that want to run via a web server.

    Not certain whom your ISP is, but most do not allow one to host services, such as websites, on their connections. Now, the tech guys are probably not the ones to enforce this. But that is an issue between you and your ISP.

    Maybe you should at least try develop a site on a host, (let alone one that is more complicated such as one on your local network), before you try to pass judgment on someone else's?
    Oh, I have developed plenty of web applications in my days. Now, I don't have a personal one listed because, well, I don't have a personal website and my employer is a bit touchy about publicly listing our projects outside of the proper context. How many websites have you developed or deployed that were slashdotted and survived? Advertised on national tv? Garnered honorable mention for a Webby?

    Seriously, you guys recommending server boxes for a group of 12 people is really way out there... The xBox handled about 30 simultaneous users or so... That was a classroom that pulled some files for viewing at basically the same times during the class... ??? You're wanting him to get a server for 12 people??? My PCs are fast, but they're not server-class... Heck, I knew a guy that was using a Pentium 3 box with linux to serve just as many people...
    You completely miss the point. First, server-class box does not necessarily mean fast. It means you have industrial grade components, builtin redundancy and proper support plans. Businesses these days rely upon their computing systems. Using some hacked hardware to be cheap is only begging for trouble because hardware will fail, especially consumer-grade crap pressed into industrial use. And, when things fail, the real question becomes "How quickly can we get back up and running without data loss?" This is especially key for smaller offices without dedicated IT staffs to monitor, care and feed for the servers. They need solid hardware and well-backed support so that when things do go down, they can get back up and running without too much hassle nor downtime.

  19. #19
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by wwb_99 View Post
    Well, the site you have posted is a horror of tables, combined with some rather poor ASP.NET code. You do know you can turn off viewstate, right?
    I guess you're not into using one template for the entire site, whenever you create them for your employer, if you even do? The same layout is used through my entire site, regardless of what's on the page.

    Please do tell me what ASP.NET code I am running, considering that you can't see the code-behind pages... lol... It's so horrible that you don't have any clue as to what it is?

    As for viewstate, who cares? That might add a few milliseconds or RAM use, but the bottleneck is the upload cap... If I put the same site on a T-1 line or higher, it would take less than a second to get the 15KB to you... You are sadly mistaken, if you think my 3.6GHz processor is the hold up on such a small page...

    Quote Originally Posted by wwb_99 View Post
    2-5 second load times are horrible, and 15kb for a page of that nature is atrocious. A half-second and 5kb is more reasonable.
    Complain to my ISP. I would enjoy an upgrade. Until I can change providers, I guess you'll be forced to wait that entire two seconds... *rolls eyes* As for 15KB being atrocious, what would you say about this sitepoint page that is 126KB? Wow, it must be absolutely horrible! Give me a break... As for my skills in HTML, this comparison proves that I did better with my page than the author of this one... http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?i...tepointnh0.jpg For the record, what site had more errors?

    Quote Originally Posted by wwb_99 View Post
    So you are hosting your site on your main home PC? That is a recipe for disaster, or at least service outage. From a security standpoint, you really don't want holes punched through the firewall to client boxes, and web servers should be web servers, not web servers/gaming machines. Of course it loads fast for you--after all, you are running it over the loopback interface.
    No, it's not my main home PC. I use it sometimes. So what? Do you think that if I jumped on another PC that my bandwidth would increase? lol... From a security standpoint, I don't think anyone could get in if they wanted to... The only real threat is a DOS attack, and that's illegal and would be hunted down by my ISP and / or name servers... I don't play games, so you lost me there...

    It isn't loading fast for me because it's on a loopback. If that was the case, it would be ms... The upload speed is the bottleneck. If you have a processor that takes 2 seconds to process 15 KB of data, and that's why you think that my code is the culprit, then you should really consider an upgrade...

    Quote Originally Posted by wwb_99 View Post
    Non-server windows licenses are pretty explicit about not hosting public-facing websites on them. The only reason IIS is on XP pro is for development purposes and local apps that want to run via a web server.
    Eh, what do you think I did? I developed a site... lol Report me. If Microsoft says that I have to buy Windows Server 2003, then I will. Until then, I'm not dishing out $1,000 for the upgrade just so I can interact with my PC remotely for personal use...

    Quote Originally Posted by wwb_99 View Post
    Not certain whom your ISP is, but most do not allow one to host services, such as websites, on their connections. Now, the tech guys are probably not the ones to enforce this. But that is an issue between you and your ISP.
    I told you that it was DSL. It's funny that out of all the people I discussed my SMTP server with over my residential connection, (note that only residential connections have port 25 blocked, since that's been enforced to fight spam and they are aware of people using their residential service to host sites...), none of them mentioned it being against the policy. You should also take note that I said that all of them were lost, and they had to ask others for assistance in answering my questions, so I suppose that it wasn't their supervisor's jobs to enforce that either?

    Quote Originally Posted by wwb_99 View Post
    Oh, I have developed plenty of web applications in my days. Now, I don't have a personal one listed because, well, I don't have a personal website and my employer is a bit touchy about publicly listing our projects outside of the proper context. How many websites have you developed or deployed that were slashdotted and survived? Advertised on national tv? Garnered honorable mention for a Webby?
    Like I said, don't talk it if you can't back it up. My site is available to the public. I obviously know what I'm doing. Anyone can afford to do what I have done, but certainly not everyone has the knowledge. When you are brave enough to give it a try, put one up and I'll offer advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by wwb_99 View Post
    You completely miss the point. First, server-class box does not necessarily mean fast. It means you have industrial grade components, builtin redundancy and proper support plans. Businesses these days rely upon their computing systems. Using some hacked hardware to be cheap is only begging for trouble because hardware will fail, especially consumer-grade crap pressed into industrial use. And, when things fail, the real question becomes "How quickly can we get back up and running without data loss?" This is especially key for smaller offices without dedicated IT staffs to monitor, care and feed for the servers. They need solid hardware and well-backed support so that when things do go down, they can get back up and running without too much hassle nor downtime.
    You're saying that he needs to buy reliable hardware, but what does that mean? Any hardware can break. You're telling him to put all this money into a project that is on a very small scale and probably a similarly small budget. I see nothing wrong with the setup he has. Sure, he could buy a couple of xeons and throw it onto a Tyan mobo and pair it with a 5-SCSI-drive RAID, but is that really necessary? You seem to think so, but from personal first-hand experience, I'm saying it isn't... Just make sure that things are backed up on external hard drives every night. If the system fails, you haven't lost the data. Make sure there is another machine that can be used temporarily while the server is down, if necessary, but this is not even close to an enterprise-level solution that is needed...

  20. #20
    SitePoint Guru Rob_D's Avatar
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    Update

    We got an iMac in the end with OEM XP Pro installed and running natively. All painless. Works fine - quiet, fast.

    The DMS will be installed fairly soon so I will keep the forum informed.
    It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value.
    Arthur C. Clarke


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