SitePoint Sponsor

User Tag List

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 57
  1. #1
    SitePoint Zealot
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    144
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Symphony Vs Codeigniter

    Hi all,

    I very new to MVC and using frameworks. I have been working with PHP for a few years now but always from a procedural outlook. I've decided its time to bite the bullet and start developing the "real" way.

    Can people here shed some light on the ups and down of both of these frameworks and which they believe would be best for a beginner to delve into.

    I just thought of something else. In order to truly learn about this framework stuff should I dive in and build my own?

  2. #2
    SitePoint Guru 33degrees's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    707
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Building your own is the best learning experience, but it helps a lot to know how other frameworks do it. Out of two you mention, I get the impression that CodeIgniter is the simplest, but there are several others worth checking out, like cakephp and picora. I would recommend downloading a couple, trying them out, and looking at how their code works. Once you get a feel for that, you might consider making your own.

  3. #3
    SitePoint Enthusiast
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    92
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Even if you decide to build your own, I can really recommend Symfony's manual: http://www.symfony-project.com/book/1_0

    It's excellently written, and easy to understand.

  4. #4
    SitePoint Wizard Mike Borozdin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Edinburgh, UK
    Posts
    1,743
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'd also recommend trying out Zend Framework, other frameworks may be pretty ok, but the framework that is made by the PHP creators is going to become an industry standards, at least it will bring some standards that some people complain PHP lacks of.

  5. #5
    Non-Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    5,748
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    > ... at least it will bring some standards that some people complain PHP lacks of.

    I would agree with that, however for a lot of people in the industry (more so in the developinp world? I don't have statistics to back that thought up though), these people are having a lot of trouble understanding those standards that the framework puts across.

  6. #6
    SitePoint Addict
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    232
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Experienced users are always going to recommend you low-level frameworks, such as Zend or Solar, but chances are that you might end up using an old high-level framework such as Cake or CodeIgniter. The reasons are simple: they are easy to use, they run on any server and they offer non-techy documentation. Of course, I would recommend you Symfony, a french masterpiece. But, there's always a but, 9 out of 10 people that I recommended Symfony... ended up using Cake or CodeIgniter.

    Who they are / What they want

    1. Web Developer

    - Easy to use.
    - Runs on any server.
    - Non-technical documentation.


    2. Programmer

    - 100% Object-oriented.
    - Easy to extend.
    - Technical documentation.

    3. System Architect

    - Good Implementation of design patterns and programming paradigms.
    - Flexible and easy to extend.
    - Technical documentation.

  7. #7
    SitePoint Addict Jasper Bekkers's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    282
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Borozdin View Post
    I'd also recommend trying out Zend Framework, other frameworks may be pretty ok, but the framework that is made by the PHP creators is going to become an industry standards, at least it will bring some standards that some people complain PHP lacks of.
    I don't have high hopes in the Zend framework becoming an industry standard, the market already was saturated before they came about. I think Zend has waited way to long with starting such an initiative and for it to be really successful (RoR like) they should really bundle PHP and ZF to create a more integrated and native solution.
    Design patterns: trying to do Smalltalk in Java.
    I blog too, you know.

  8. #8
    SitePoint Addict
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    232
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jasper Bekkers View Post
    I don't have high hopes in the Zend framework becoming an industry standard, the market already was saturated before they came about. I think Zend has waited way to long with starting such an initiative and for it to be really successful (RoR like) they should really bundle PHP and ZF to create a more integrated and native solution.
    It's all about Zend and .NET framework in this days. Perl, Ruby and Java are from the 90's.

    And also, watch out for Flex, it's behind you.

  9. #9
    SitePoint Wizard Mike Borozdin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Edinburgh, UK
    Posts
    1,743
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jasper Bekkers View Post
    I don't have high hopes in the Zend framework becoming an industry standard, the market already was saturated before they came about. I think Zend has waited way to long with starting such an initiative and for it to be really successful (RoR like) they should really bundle PHP and ZF to create a more integrated and native solution.
    Zend Framework has a solid advantage - it is made by Zend, it makes you sure that they've done they best and that it was developed by real professionas and not just script-kiddies.

    By the way, ICQ used to be very popular but then MSN came that was shipped with Windows. ZF is about to be shipped with PHP.

    I agree with you, there a lot of frameworks, however I tried nearly to none until ZF was released, I thought I just should try it, not matter how good it is or bad, but it is the thing that many people will use soon.

  10. #10
    SitePoint Addict
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    232
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    What I love about Zend is that when they decided to create a framework, everyone was expecting a copy of RoR. And what they did? They created a low-level framework. And the message they sent to the community was very clear. We are still the king of the web. We are Java's little cousin, we are the next C++.

    And while some people are having fun and getting nostalgic with perl and ruby, others are building the next generation of web applications using php and the Zend framework. Magento is a clear example of this.

  11. #11
    SitePoint Guru 33degrees's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    707
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by phpimpact View Post
    What I love about Zend is that when they decided to create a framework, everyone was expecting a copy of RoR. And what they did? They created a low-level framework. And the message they sent to the community was very clear. We are still the king of the web. We are Java's little cousin, we are the next C++.
    That's one interpretation, I suppose. Mine is that they realized they couldn't pull of things like rails' ActiveRecord in PHP, and they decided to play it safe by copying Java, complete with a big upfront design by committee. Besides, what makes Zend a "low-level framework", the fact that the components were designed to be used independently? The disadvantage of that is that it requires more wiring together to do things. Or is it the fact that it includes things like a date object, or an http object, which should be part of PHP's library?

    Quote Originally Posted by phpimpact View Post
    And while some people are having fun and getting nostalgic with perl and ruby, others are building the next generation of web applications using php and the Zend framework. Magento is a clear example of this.
    How is using ruby "nostalgic"? That doesn't make any sense.

  12. #12
    SitePoint Addict Jasper Bekkers's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    282
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by phpimpact View Post
    And also, watch out for Flex, it's behind you.
    I'm not really into RIAs from a frontend point of view but if you are, have a look at Backbase, it's a said to be a really nice product.

    Quote Originally Posted by 33degrees View Post
    How is using ruby "nostalgic"? That doesn't make any sense.
    It has been called Smalltalk 2, but I'm not getting the point he's trying to make either.
    Design patterns: trying to do Smalltalk in Java.
    I blog too, you know.

  13. #13
    SitePoint Addict
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    232
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Well, when I started developing websites I turned to PHP because neither Perl or Ruby seemed to know what the web was all about. The only one that managed to catch up with the latest technologies was PHP.

  14. #14
    SitePoint Addict
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    232
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jasper Bekkers View Post
    I'm not really into RIAs from a frontend point of view but if you are, have a look at Backbase, it's a said to be a really nice product.
    Nice one, thanks for the link!

  15. #15
    SitePoint Wizard gRoberts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Birtley, UK
    Posts
    2,439
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Does anyone have any suggestions as to where I can find some good reading material about writing my own Framework? Being a C# Developer by trade, i'm bored of .Net and i've been using PHP for a while now, and i'll be honest, I prefer PHP.

    Most of my clients are on Linux Servers, and i'd really like to be able to create my own framework, on which I can create an CMS / Web Site Management system on.

    Any idea's?


  16. #16
    simple tester McGruff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    1,690
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Yes: don't don't do it. It's too hard.

    Instead, create a library where you keep classes which aren't specific to any particular project. Leave it to evolve. It's far too hard to try to anticipate everything which your framework might be used for. It'll end up either too much or too little. Much better to let it grow out of real projects.

  17. #17
    SitePoint Addict Jasper Bekkers's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    282
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by McGruff View Post
    Yes: don't don't do it. It's too hard.

    Instead, create a library where you keep classes which aren't specific to any particular project. Leave it to evolve. It's far too hard to try to anticipate everything which your framework might be used for. It'll end up either too much or too little. Much better to let it grow out of real projects.
    If I ever were to write a book on this subject, that quote would be on the first page.
    Design patterns: trying to do Smalltalk in Java.
    I blog too, you know.

  18. #18
    SitePoint Wizard gRoberts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Birtley, UK
    Posts
    2,439
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Sorry I'm not sure who that was intended for...


  19. #19
    SitePoint Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    23
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jasper Bekkers View Post
    I'm not really into RIAs from a frontend point of view but if you are, have a look at Backbase, it's a said to be a really nice product.
    Turned off Javascript in FF, tried the demos, got nothing but empty white pages. Guess it's not for me...

  20. #20
    SitePoint Guru 33degrees's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    707
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by phpimpact View Post
    Well, when I started developing websites I turned to PHP because neither Perl or Ruby seemed to know what the web was all about.
    So what is the web all about?

    Quote Originally Posted by phpimpact View Post
    The only one that managed to catch up with the latest technologies was PHP.
    Yes, php is certainly playing catch up... to Java and RoR...

    Zend is shaping up to be a solid framework, but it's not innovative by any means.

  21. #21
    SitePoint Zealot
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    144
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Thanx people for all your advice. I have a small project I'm working on which only needs to do a couple of things so I might just play around with my own brew for that and then have a closer look at the frameworks for the next large project I get.

  22. #22
    Non-Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    5,748
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    > ... they should really bundle PHP and ZF to create a more integrated and native solution.

    If I recall recently, Zend does indeed intent to bundle the framework along with one packaged solution, or another. I don't have the URL at hand, but you may want to read over the Zend Blog for one place to start.

    Also look over their developer network, but it's on it's way; Have you downloaded Zend's own solution by the way? You need to register first but that would be the first place to check up on I imagine.

    > Any idea's?

    You need to test of course from the beginning so I would start there if you've not been test infected yet. Otherwise start simple and don't plan anything too far ahead of yourself, such as large class hierarchies for example.

    Further too this, don't design your framework around the Model View Controller pattern, whatever you decide to do. If you are looking for inspiration, look at how you could create a smaller, generic framework to help data transfer between a source and a target, which would be used as the foundation for your ever growing framework.

    Do the simple things first, and you will be surprised at just how much you can do with so little later on. This is what I done, and still today when I refactor and add to my own framework, I am taken aback at what I can achieve with those early foundations.

    The best thing yet though, is that the functionality is already there waiting for me to use it; I don't have to go off and implement something new to allow for that refactor to take place

    Finally, don't give up and don't give in, no matter what anyone says; If it's possible, then only yourself can determine that, and if it's something you want, then go for it.

  23. #23
    SitePoint Addict
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    232
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by 33degrees View Post
    So what is the web all about?
    The Web is like the Playboy mansion, where PHP is the host, Flash the DJ and RoR a nice blond you can have fun with while Java is outside... parking cars.

    Quote Originally Posted by 33degrees View Post
    Yes, php is certainly playing catch up... to Java and RoR... Zend is shaping up to be a solid framework, but it's not innovative by any means.
    Yep, it's trying to figure out how to insert a java applet

  24. #24
    SitePoint Guru 33degrees's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    707
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Livingston View Post
    If I recall recently, Zend does indeed intent to bundle the framework along with one packaged solution, or another. I don't have the URL at hand, but you may want to read over the Zend Blog for one place to start.
    From the comments on the post announcing the 1.0 Release

    "No, we have no plans to bundle ZF with PHP. No, we have no plans to offer ZF under a PEAR channel or other piece-by-piece distribution method."

    I'd imagine that there are politics involve that would make bundling ZF with PHP; which is unfortunate because some of the classes in ZF do belong in a bundled library.

  25. #25
    Non-Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    5,748
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    > No, we have no plans to bundle ZF with PHP. – No, we have no plans to offer ZF under a
    > PEAR channel or other piece-by-piece distribution method.

    As far as I understand it, the Zend framework would be, or is bundled with PHP5 in this form,

    http://blogs.zend.com/tags/zend-studio-5.5-beta/

    > This version contains many new features such as: source control status decoration,
    > embedded Java code completion, Zend Framework integration, anti-alias support,
    > performance improvements and more.

    The blog post may be from late last year, but as far as I know, it still stands, as I do recall that there was an announcement that the framework would be made available for PHP5 for a number of parties, to be bundled.

    IBM in particular were stated to have their own interest in this regard. Obviously


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •