Conclusions on rails...

[Skyblaze]

I've been studying and developing in rails for about 6 months. I've started with php and mysql and i own a webagency but i'm going to close it to find a work as a web developer (php developer) 'cause i've hard times with money
So i've decided to return to develop in php firstable 'cause all the web jobs out there (at least here in italy) are for php programmers and second 'cause i think that developing in rails hides to me some complexity that i want to learn as ajax, javascript database structure sql etc.
I feel that programming in php i've more control on what i do and i learn a lot more with the tecnologies involved. At the end i don't think there are a lot of benefits in using rails at least for me. I can use php for every dynamic website and for large project i can use a well desgined php framework as symphony but i feel i've the control. Furthermore there isn't yet a big movement as for php i mean the comunity the documentation, library etc. This is my story

[Fenrir2]

The problem is the PHP language. It's suspiciously ugly and ill-designed.

Ruby can be used without Rails you know

[Skyblaze]

The problem is the PHP language. It's suspiciously ugly and ill-designed.

Ruby can be used without Rails you know

after my experience with both i can say that php is right for its purpose. i didn't see any advantages for me programming in rails instead i saw that i wasn't learning things such as databases, ajax javascript etc...

[bermi]

@Fenrir2, I also prefer Ruby elegance, but in Spain as in Italy PHP gets contracts as deploying PHP applications in unknown/uncontrolled environments is much easier.

@Skyblaze, you can get the good things from Rails using the Akelos PHP Framework

[Skyblaze]

@Fenrir2, I also prefer Ruby elegance, but in Spain as in Italy PHP gets contracts as deploying PHP applications in unknown/uncontrolled environments is much easier.

@Skyblaze, you can get the good things from Rails using the Akelos PHP Framework

i didn't know akelos but i see from the website that the documentation is poor. Anyway i don't want a rails clone in php 'cause as i said i like to do things by hand (javascript ajax etc), and then i heared a lot of good things about the symphony php framework and i think i will look for it.

[vgarcia]

I guess I appreciate Rails more as someone who already did stuff like AJAX by hand for a while before getting on it. I can understand the market share argument for PHP, but the "I want to do everything by hand" argument is pretty dumb in my opinion, because 1. you don't have to use the Rails stuff if you don't want to, 2. even the PHP world is moving to frameworks on a larger scale and there will be time-saving "magic" in those too, and 3. I don't like wasting time on things I already know and have done a bunch of times before.

In short, don't blame Rails because you don't think you know enough Javascript. Nobody's forcing you to use link_to_remote or whatever

[Skyblaze]

I guess I appreciate Rails more as someone who already did stuff like AJAX by hand for a while before getting on it. I can understand the market share argument for PHP, but the "I want to do everything by hand" argument is pretty dumb in my opinion, because 1. you don't have to use the Rails stuff if you don't want to, 2. even the PHP world is moving to frameworks on a larger scale and there will be time-saving "magic" in those too, and 3. I don't like wasting time on things I already know and have done a bunch of times before.

In short, don't blame Rails because you don't think you know enough Javascript. Nobody's forcing you to use link_to_remote or whatever

there are also other things....for example i can use vanilla php (all by hand) for simple script and maybe a php framework for large project and the deployment of the app is easy. With ror i can only use the framework also for simple project and the deployment is more difficult.

[ReggieB]

Skyblaze,

I'll miss your posts in this forum. I've enjoyed getting involved in some of the discussions you've started.

As for Rails, I love it. It ticks all the boxes for me and that's coming to it from ASP, PHP and ASP.Net. If you prefer PHP, good for you. Personally I'd much rather read posts from people who've given Rails a good try and found it doesn't suit their requirements, than someone who just dismisses it out of hand.

Personally, I'd find it easier to write AJAX and client side JavaScript on a system using Rails server side. You don't have to use the Rails AJAX helpers. That what I like so much about Rails - it gives you such freedom to customise the page that hits the browser as you write the HTML into which the dynamic content is inserted. It is this that makes it a no-brainer for me when comparing Rails with ASP.Net.

However, the comparison with PHP isn't so simple. I think it is more a case of which language you prefer. Especially if finding a host isn't an issue for you in which case PHP has obvious advantages currently. Having used PHP server side, I much prefer Ruby and Rails. Any system that automates part of the process is going to make compromises. For me Rails makes the right compromises. I am sure there are other like you who prefer PHP compromises.

So good luck with the PHP development. I'm confident the Rails community will still be going strong if you find yourself heading back, and I'm sure there will be a warm welcome back.

[Skyblaze]

Skyblaze,

I'll miss your posts in this forum. I've enjoyed getting involved in some of the discussions you've started.

As for Rails, I love it. It ticks all the boxes for me and that's coming to it from ASP, PHP and ASP.Net. If you prefer PHP, good for you. Personally I'd much rather read posts from people who've given Rails a good try and found it doesn't suit their requirements, than someone who just dismisses it out of hand.

Personally, I'd find it easier to write AJAX and client side JavaScript on a system using Rails server side. You don't have to use the Rails AJAX helpers. That what I like so much about Rails - it gives you such freedom to customise the page that hits the browser as you write the HTML into which the dynamic content is inserted. It is this that makes it a no-brainer for me when comparing Rails with ASP.Net.

However, the comparison with PHP isn't so simple. I think it is more a case of which language you prefer. Especially if finding a host isn't an issue for you in which case PHP has obvious advantages currently. Having used PHP server side, I much prefer Ruby and Rails. Any system that automates part of the process is going to make compromises. For me Rails makes the right compromises. I am sure there are other like you who prefer PHP compromises.

So good luck with the PHP development. I'm confident the Rails community will still be going strong if you find yourself heading back, and I'm sure there will be a warm welcome back.

Thanks, infact i've learned so much here and the rails road is always open for the future

[vgarcia]

there are also other things....for example i can use vanilla php (all by hand) for simple script and maybe a php framework for large project and the deployment of the app is easy. With ror i can only use the framework also for simple project and the deployment is more difficult.

You can use "vanilla ruby" for simple scripts too. CGI is a well-supported interface. You don't have to use Rails where it would be overkill.

[Fenrir2]

Camping FTW.

[Skyblaze]

Dear rails firends things here change very fast
I had some interesting works and i decided to not close my web agency. The great thing is that i've persisted with rails and i noticed and understood that i will not program in any language/framework other that rails e ruby (at least for now ). After your replies and other learnings i understood several things about rails and web programming and now i'm coding a rich web app in rails and i'm glad to see that it works very very great and as i expected and far beyond.. I said that learning rails i felt as i wasn't learning any base tecnology behind it but i was wrong. I already knew those tecnologies thanks to my past learning experiences (php, databases design, html, css etc.) and yes, rails is a wonderful tool to speed up the development process with all those tecnologies. So i think at the end that it is true that anyone can learn rails but if you don't know web development basics it is more difficult and less productive. Working with this my new web app i think and i know for sure that i couldn't do all that work (and wonderful work) with php
So here i am again, happy to find new things to learn from you and to help you with rails and web development as best as i can

[depi]

Congrats, nice story. Interesting to read. I'm now also learing Rails and I'm very excited about it!

[jpease]

3 weeks from:

"I've tried Rails for 6 months and it's a bad fit for me because I'm not learning foundational technology and have less control than PHP, plus I'm closing my business"

to

"I love Rails, I already know all the foundational technology anyways, and I'm not closing my business."

Wow. You are a very spontaneous person.

[Skyblaze]

3 weeks from:

"I've tried Rails for 6 months and it's a bad fit for me because I'm not learning foundational technology and have less control than PHP, plus I'm closing my business"

to

"I love Rails, I already know all the foundational technology anyways, and I'm not closing my business."

Wow. You are a very spontaneous person.

yes i am...but the real thing is that in 3 weeks (or less) i have built a solid base of my new complex web app in rails.....i can't imagine how i could do that in php

[Czaries]

yes i am...but the real thing is that in 3 weeks (or less) i have built a solid base of my new complex web app in rails.....i can't imagine how i could do that in php

... with a framework? Akelos was already mentioned, but there are many more like Symfony, CakePHP, Zend, etc.

[Fenrir2]

... with a framework? Akelos was already mentioned, but there are many more like Symfony, CakePHP, Zend, etc.

What is the advantage of these PHP frameworks? I've seen and tried CakePHP and Symfony. They were much harder to work with because they're written in PHP, so I have to write PHP too. This significantly decreases productivity. They are also slower (to execute) than Rails, in my experience.

The only thing left is the availability of more webhosts, but I generally don't use more than 100 webhosting companies.