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  1. #1
    SitePoint Addict mixmastermidori's Avatar
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    Netscape sucks (but what else is new?)

    I just got through poring over code for several hours trying to figure out why my page looked the way I wanted it to, but the Perl/CGI script wouldn't run in Netscape. I moved the code around and it was okay in other parts of the page, but it didn't like where it had to live. I finally tried taking out the "ALIGN='left'" from the uppermost <TABLE> it was nested in, and then it magically began working in Netscape. Seems like my form wouldn't submit with me specifying the alignment. Makes no sense.

    Thought I should share in case anyone else has run into this problem.

    -Midori
    Nature's Sunshine herbs and supplements

  2. #2
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    Tell me about it. I spent a few days designing a beautiful site. It works in IE 5.5, Opera 6.0 and Mozilla 0.98. It works wonderfully in all of them. However Netscape Navigator 4.77 simply crashes.

    I thought maybe it was because I missed something and so spent the morning validating the code. The HTML validates to 4.01 transitional perfectly and the CSS validates properly with a few warnings. So I don't really know what to do with it.

    I do know one vocal user of the site refuses to give up Netscape 4.XX for her macintosh. She is constantly complaining because people don't code for her 5 year old browser yet still refuses to upgrade. I am going to try and see if I can talk her into using Opera since Netscape 6.0 is horrid on Mac OS 9.
    Wayne Luke
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  3. #3
    SitePoint Enthusiast fgi's Avatar
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    If you give me the links to the pages you are talking of, I will take a look at them.

    I'm curious to see and try to reproduce these strange bugs...

  4. #4
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    I know what the problem is on my site. However, it would destroy the design to make the fix. Netscape 4.XX has a problem with complex documents that include tables, relatively positioned DIV based layers, external style sheets and inline style definitions and javascript. I am utilizing all of these. This has been known for years and it doesn't always crop up. It takes a weird series of events to trigger it.

    To me, fixing it is not a big issue. Yeah, I know that something like 4 or 5 percent of surfers still use Navigator 4.XX, but I need to be able to maximize my investment with a return. At this time, I simply can't justify it when I need to get the site open to the other 96% of the population. Especially when about 99.9% of our target usergroup will be using either Internet Explorer or AOL to browse the net. Out of 160 customers on our mailing list, the person listed above is the only one who doesn't use one of those programs.
    Wayne Luke
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  5. #5
    SitePoint Enthusiast fgi's Avatar
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    Unhappy

    If you want my opinion, NN4.xx is too old, MSIE sucks and NN5 (NS6.x) is a shame.

    There is simply no real good Web browser out there at the moment!

  6. #6
    SitePoint Wizard Aes's Avatar
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    Originally posted by fgi
    There is simply no real good Web browser out there at the moment!
    Speak for yourself!

    Internet Explorer 6.0 is not nearly as bad as its predecessors.

    Opera 6.01 is fantastic -- my browser of choice at the moment.

    Netscape 6.x/Mozilla is absolutely stunning -- fast and clean.

    As soon as Mozilla 1.0 or Netscape 6.3 is released, I'll be upgrading and seeing if those warrant a primary browser change.

    -Colin
    Colin Anderson
    Ambition is a poor excuse for those without
    sense enough to be lazy.

  7. #7
    SitePoint Enthusiast fgi's Avatar
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    Cool

    Open source and standardisation, thats the future. I think we're just in a transition phase with XML not far away.

    It's nice to see optimistic persons like Aes. Looking ahead for NS6.3 (same nice features without the bugs?)

  8. #8
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    I was actually impressed with Mozilla .98. It is much better than .94 was. It is unfortunate that they had to release 3 versions of Netscape 6.X as beta versions though to get it to this point though.

    To me, the interface in Opera is annoying, especially in 6.0 when it has to ask me a bunch of questions everytime it runs instead of storing my previously stated preferences.

    Currently I am using Netcaptor 6.5, which is a front end for Internet Explorer, as my primary browser. It adds a few features that I personally would like IE to contain so I am happy with it. Now if they only made it skinnable, I would be truly happy.
    Wayne Luke
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  9. #9
    SitePoint Wizard Aes's Avatar
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    fgi, in all honesty, Netscape 6.2 has virtually no bugs (I know -- to say any software has absolutely no bugs is nearly impossible), however, I've been using 6.2 ever since it was released and have yet to encounter a bug.

    Wayne, when I use Opera 6.x, I don't have questions pop-up. I'm assuming you're referring to the window managment style that is prompted by default, however one can easily disable that and specify custom settings.

    -Colin
    Colin Anderson
    Ambition is a poor excuse for those without
    sense enough to be lazy.

  10. #10
    What? Maelstrom's Avatar
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    Originally posted by fgi
    If you want my opinion, NN4.xx is too old, MSIE sucks and NN5 (NS6.x) is a shame.

    There is simply no real good Web browser out there at the moment!
    Wow...really...I would disagree..I love IE and find it is faster and better than ever. And very easy to work with. I also use Opera because it has some wicked features for a designer. I have never liked netscape so I would say I don't like 6.2 but it is still better than ANY older browser
    Maelstrom Personal - Apparition Visions
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  11. #11
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Aes
    fgi, in all honesty, Netscape 6.2 has virtually no bugs (I know -- to say any software has absolutely no bugs is nearly impossible), however, I've been using 6.2 ever since it was released and have yet to encounter a bug.

    I'd say Netscape still has a long way to go before it's my browser of choice. For example, LITTLE TO NO XML SUPPORT! Go to XML101.com and try to take their tutorial on NS6.x. It just doesn't work. They also need to take out that damn splash screen when the app loads. By the time the browser actually pops up I can have 3 IE windows open. Not that I'm one for IE either though. It would just be nice if NS and MS would just go with the same standards (maybe client-side VBscript on NS?) and stop the BS. If only the W3C would step in on this.

    --Vinnie

  12. #12
    SitePoint Guru
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    Originally posted by vgarcia


    They also need to take out that damn splash screen when the app loads.

    --Vinnie
    Yes! It's way past about time on that.

  13. #13
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    view from the couch

    hey guys,

    couldn't help but get in on this conversation
    anyway most of you will know the same trouble i had when trying to code for netscape 4.7. the css 2 support just ain't there. just to recap though and set the record straight.

    netscape 6.2 rocks, no bugs but makes you code PROPERLY
    opera 6 is sweet too but is hard to get you head around.

    IE (whatever version) - well this is why there is so much worthless content on the net nowadays. anybody can make a website and it pretty much doesn't complain no matter what you do. of course with a few exceptions like CSS hacks, etc

    alright then, my yack is over, in my opinion stop coding for older browsers, maybe they will upgrade if we stop accomodating them?

    well for personal sites i think that this is cool, for pro'ssional jobs it is a different matter all together.

    happy codingand forgive my typos is any.

    scott

    http://fluidinkpress.vr9.com

  14. #14
    SitePoint Enthusiast fgi's Avatar
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    Hi everyone,

    (I'm not sure we're in the appropriate forum for this subject, but let's carry on with these talks...)

    When I say "no REAL good Web browser", I don't say that they are BAD. I refer to what they COULD be with the current technology available and the many years of experience of the numerous involved in their creation.

    "sucks" and "shame" is severe, but do you remember the feeling when you upgraded from Lynx to Netscape 2 ? Quantum leap...

    All is here, let's just get all the pieces together to make everyone happy

  15. #15
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    Originally posted by vgarcia


    I'd say Netscape still has a long way to go before it's my browser of choice. For example, LITTLE TO NO XML SUPPORT! Go to XML101.com and try to take their tutorial on NS6.x. It just doesn't work. They also need to take out that damn splash screen when the app loads. By the time the browser actually pops up I can have 3 IE windows open. Not that I'm one for IE either though. It would just be nice if NS and MS would just go with the same standards (maybe client-side VBscript on NS?) and stop the BS. If only the W3C would step in on this.

    --Vinnie
    I've been using N 6.1 and I am FAIRLY happy with it. One difference with NN4.XX that I noticed is that 6.1 crashes at least 10 times LESS than 4.XX !!!!
    However N6.1 behaves strangely in routine stuff like bookmarks and scrolling.
    Regarding splash page I was under the impression (reading Netscape's page) that N6.2 has a quick launch feature added, does it?
    Here's hoping for fully standards compliant browsers some day soon

  16. #16
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    Originally posted by rezag

    Regarding splash page I was under the impression (reading Netscape's page) that N6.2 has a quick launch feature added, does it?
    Yeah.. It loads when you bootup so that is when you see the splash screen. It then minimizes to the system tray (or whereever they minimize to in other applications) and consumes resources the entire time you use your computer.
    Wayne Luke
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  17. #17
    SitePoint Wizard creole's Avatar
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    You mean like Internet Explorer?

    Adobe Certified Coldfusion MX 7 Developer
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  18. #18
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    That is all I need yet another program in
    my tray
    creole do you mean IE does that?? Not on my machine (I have IE 6)

  19. #19
    SitePoint Wizard creole's Avatar
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    I mean that it is tecnically running when Windows starts. That's why it starts up so fast. And one of the reasons Microsoft is getting sued.
    Adobe Certified Coldfusion MX 7 Developer
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  20. #20
    SitePoint Enthusiast slp's Avatar
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    I think I'd be safe in saying that you can't beat Opera for speed , especially if you don't have a fast computer or modem. The other browsers are so frustratingly slow to load pages and seem to use a lot more resources for doing simple things like opening a new browser window, for example. But sometimes I'm forced to use IE since it seems to be able to do things that other browsers (like Opera) can't, and it doesn't help when websites are designed to only work properly in it! In my experience, Netscape does seem more picky about proper coding, which is frustrating, but I guess it's my own fault for not being more rigorous. Then again, I haven't tried any of the newer versions. But as far as NN4 goes, I have to emphatically agree with the sujbect of this thread!

  21. #21
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    Originally posted by slp
    I think I'd be safe in saying that you can't beat Opera for speed , especially if you don't have a fast computer or modem.
    Opera is actually the slowest browser I have personally experienced. If it runs at all. On my computer it hangs at the splash screen 3 out of 4 times.

    I guess it all comes down to personal preference. I prefer IE and Mozilla over anything else. They will be my primary tools for browsing for the foreseeable future. I use Opera and Netscape 4.XX just for checking sites. If they are passable then I leave it alone. If not, I have to gauge the amount of time needed to make them passable. If there is too much time required, then I won't do the work.
    Wayne Luke
    ------------


  22. #22
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    Wow..I didn't think there was anyone else on any web development forum that didn't like using Opera. I find exactly the same thing. I keep going back and trying it again and again for browsing because I figure if all these people like it I must be missing something, but then it does something like hang forever on submitting a form and I find I can open IE or Netscape or Mozilla and accomplish the same thing immediately.

    All my sites are small enough that one visitor is a percentage point or thereabouts. I have to make them passable in Netscape 4 and Opera, just in case. But, on the other hand, I don't worry if you can't see a DHTML extra in Opera.

  23. #23
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    I have done VERY small sites with minimal scripts/DHTML that don't look right on NN so I almost give up trying to make them look right for NN.

  24. #24
    SitePoint Enthusiast limmystar's Avatar
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    In my humble opinion, Netscape 6.XX is a lot better than the old Netscape 4.xx, but even the new Netscape versions still do not recognize alt tags, colored scroll bars, and etc.
    Limmystar

  25. #25
    SitePoint Addict TegSkywalker's Avatar
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    What I use is K-Meleon from http://kmeleon.sourceforge.net and it works great for me. Small.. fast.. small footprint.. runs the Mozilla codebase and looks like IE. Top in my book


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