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View Poll Results: Do you mind coding with hacks and turnarounds for NS4?

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  • Yes it makes me feel smart

    7 8.64%
  • No it makes me waste a lot of my time

    74 91.36%
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  1. #1
    <C: web standards /> cybercodeur's Avatar
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    Reasons to drop non-standard browsers

    Okay either we are for or against web standards, we still hate having to code for NS4 all the same.

    According to you, what would be the good reasons to drop NS4 (and all non-standard browsers) and start coding only for standard compliant browsers?

    Let's hear them out folks! Vent it out!
    Denis Boudreau <C/> - Web Standards & Accessibility
    [+] ICQ number: 115649885 || Email: denis@cybercodeur.net
    [+] Daily Weblog on Web standards and accessibility : CYBERcodeur.net

  2. #2
    Gone!
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    Just a quickie, but it would mean web designers could stop spending ages coding for the scores of different browsers out there and spend more time on important issues such as useability and accessibility.

    Everyone then gets a standards compliant browser and useable accessible websites, everybody wins!

    Glen

  3. #3
    SitePoint Wizard iTec's Avatar
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    i recently made a descision not to test my sites in NS4, i figure if there still using NS4 then they are pretty much used to looking at ugly sites. And the percentage of users doesnt justify the time spent.

  4. #4
    <C: web standards /> cybercodeur's Avatar
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    Keep'em coming people!

    I like the responses so far!
    Denis Boudreau <C/> - Web Standards & Accessibility
    [+] ICQ number: 115649885 || Email: denis@cybercodeur.net
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  5. #5
    SitePoint Wizard bbolte's Avatar
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    Unhappy

    i agree and would love to stop coding for non-compliant browsers. but, after looking at the web logs on some of my sites yesterday - ns usage was almost 30%. that included ns 2 & 3 on some sites (can you believe it?). now i don't test on anything below 4 and only do brief tests on 4 - mostly just to see if everything is in place. but 25-30% usage is still too large to drop entirely, at least in my case.

  6. #6
    SitePoint Guru sowen's Avatar
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    <probably talking bull***>
    How about some really clever programmer putting together a java browser thats 100% w3 compliant. If there was no backward compatibility issues it could well be very small indeed. Then you check the browser version onload, if its anything before a V6 send the java browser to the user and load your site into that.
    </probably talking bull***>

    I'm for standards and sticking to them.

  7. #7
    <C: web standards /> cybercodeur's Avatar
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    Originally posted by sowen
    <probably talking bull***>
    How about some really clever programmer putting together a java browser thats 100% w3 compliant. If there was no backward compatibility issues it could well be very small indeed. Then you check the browser version onload, if its anything before a V6 send the java browser to the user and load your site into that.
    </probably talking bull***>

    I'm for standards and sticking to them.
    If that clever programmer could pull it off, I don't see any reasons why it shouldn't be used. Who knows? Once browsers only support Standards, we might be able to overthrow Microsoft's monopoly and have a real choice, based only on preferences and presentation.
    Denis Boudreau <C/> - Web Standards & Accessibility
    [+] ICQ number: 115649885 || Email: denis@cybercodeur.net
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  8. #8
    SitePoint Addict five40's Avatar
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    Development costs.

    I rather just design/code it once than try to support a browser which doesn't follow the standards. By this way you can cut the development cost.

    Besides, as long as we support non-standards browsers, it encourages people not to switch to newer ones.
    "-Surely you can't be serious ?
    -Yes I am serious...and don't call me Shirley."

  9. #9
    purple monkey dishwasher scoates's Avatar
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    I hate ns4.
    I stuck with it for the longest time just to try and do my part in the unsupporting of Microsoft, but it's not usable now.
    It's hard enough supporting IE on different platforms, let alone NS6 (which we do), and then old versions of said browsers. Generally, we develop for IE4+ and NS6+.

    Like a previous poster said, (and I'll elaborate upon), when a user is browsing the web at 640x480, 256 colours, using Netscape 3, they're plenty used to 95% of websites looking awful.

    Analogy:
    Websites are like music albums.
    I have a CD player.
    Record labels often only release on CD and Cassette.
    I'm not going to complain to them because their CDs don't work in my 8-track player.

    S

  10. #10
    <C: web standards /> cybercodeur's Avatar
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    Originally posted by scoates
    ...when a user is browsing the web at 640x480, 256 colours, using Netscape 3, they're plenty used to 95% of websites looking awful.

    Analogy:
    Websites are like music albums.
    I have a CD player.
    Record labels often only release on CD and Cassette.
    I'm not going to complain to them because their CDs don't work in my 8-track player.
    Very pertinent points.

    I especially like the analogy with music.

    Keep'em coming folks!
    Denis Boudreau <C/> - Web Standards & Accessibility
    [+] ICQ number: 115649885 || Email: denis@cybercodeur.net
    [+] Daily Weblog on Web standards and accessibility : CYBERcodeur.net

  11. #11
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    but huh?

    this is whart XHTML is mostly for right? weeding out all the sloppy coding, etc. the web will be a whole new ball park over the next 10 years or so. i'm all for dropping old crappy browsers but then again there will always be an old NN4 floating around somewhere.

    scott

    http://fluidinkpress.vr9.com (site for v5+ browsers only.

  12. #12
    SitePoint Evangelist =X='s Avatar
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    I always code for IE+4, NS6, opera+4 and Konquerer, since those are the most used browsers that support most standards (exept dhtml for opera)

    ns4 is indeed too old to support...
    PHP-Webservices - Profesional Hosting and Programming of sites.

  13. #13
    <C: web standards /> cybercodeur's Avatar
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    Originally posted by =X=
    I always code for IE+4, NS6, opera+4 and Konquerer, since those are the most used browsers that support most standards (exept dhtml for opera)
    I am still wondering about Opera and Konqueror... They show even less usage than NS6 which doesn't even get 1% of the user's choice...

    Reference : http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2002...ry/browser.php

    Hell, konqueror is not even on the list!
    Denis Boudreau <C/> - Web Standards & Accessibility
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  14. #14
    SitePoint Evangelist =X='s Avatar
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    you should definatelly test opera (I always use it, and I know a lot of others do too ->couldn't live without the window system, the speed and the mouse gestures )

    konquerer is a linux browser...

    as you can see, opera is still used 1061860 times on that link of you, wich is a lot! and on my own stats it's way more popular then on thecounter, and ns4 a lot less popular
    PHP-Webservices - Profesional Hosting and Programming of sites.

  15. #15
    <C: web standards /> cybercodeur's Avatar
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    could you supply us with your links for stats? I try to code for Opera 6 now, only because a lot of people in here use it (cause I'm such a nice guy ). Where I am nobody even knows about opera. It's an all IE/NS world in here.
    Denis Boudreau <C/> - Web Standards & Accessibility
    [+] ICQ number: 115649885 || Email: denis@cybercodeur.net
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  16. #16
    SitePoint Evangelist =X='s Avatar
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    I'm sorry but they are password protected...

    actually it's not really difficult to code in opera...just don't use DHTML or FrontPage

    My strategy is to do all the coding in opera, and then later I check how it looks in IE and Mozilla, normally there are no problems

    Opera uses the w3c guidelines (more then other browsers) so if you follow those, there shouldn't be any problems
    PHP-Webservices - Profesional Hosting and Programming of sites.

  17. #17
    <C: web standards /> cybercodeur's Avatar
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    There HAS to be a way to code DHTML in opera.

    I am working on redesigning my site all standards compliant with xhtml css and the rest (no tables, etc) and I plan on using cross browser dhtml. It doesn't show up in opera but I can see it's being processed. There has to be a way. I just have to find how (the tough part )

    You can look at what i mean here

    The news scroller to the right appears in white, but underneath everything. I feel I'm close to making it work (I started with brattli's code).
    Denis Boudreau <C/> - Web Standards & Accessibility
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  18. #18
    SitePoint Evangelist =X='s Avatar
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    since you are already using flash, why not use that for the dhtml part?

    btw you have an error on line 34 char 61 according to IE

    I'm sure you can accomplish the IE effect in opera too though, maybe there are some scripts that already do this?

    personally I never use js or just for very small things, I hate client side scripts
    PHP-Webservices - Profesional Hosting and Programming of sites.

  19. #19
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Originally posted by cybercodeur
    There HAS to be a way to code DHTML in opera.

    I am working on redesigning my site all standards compliant with xhtml css and the rest (no tables, etc) and I plan on using cross browser dhtml. It doesn't show up in opera but I can see it's being processed. There has to be a way. I just have to find how (the tough part )

    You can look at what i mean here

    The news scroller to the right appears in white, but underneath everything. I feel I'm close to making it work (I started with brattli's code).
    Opera can support pretty complex DHTML. The new coolmenus script has full support for opera, for instance. I don't do much client-side scripting myself, so I cant help you, but it is indeed possible. Oh, and nowadays opera will appear as IE in you logs, so you cannot really tell how many people use it.

    A nice part with opera is that it is extremely fascist about your coding, and will break on very small errors. If you make your site work in Opera, it will work in the rest, too.

    Back on the main topic - the site I'm currently building is 100% W3C compliant. However, I like to support old browsers and limited ones, such as browsers for PDA:s and other wierd moon browsers, so if a browser which is not IE 5.5+ or NS 6, it gets a "lite" version, which is content only, with a few images and stuff. No tables or DHTML that can screw it up.

    I find this to be the absolutely best path to go, as it is the best of two worlds.
    Last edited by M. Johansson; Feb 14, 2002 at 09:54.
    Mattias Johansson
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  20. #20
    <C: web standards /> cybercodeur's Avatar
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    Originally posted by =X=
    since you are already using flash, why not use that for the dhtml part?
    Very good point. I should consider it

    Originally posted by =X=
    btw you have an error on line 34 char 61 according to IE
    I'll check that out.

    thanks
    Denis Boudreau <C/> - Web Standards & Accessibility
    [+] ICQ number: 115649885 || Email: denis@cybercodeur.net
    [+] Daily Weblog on Web standards and accessibility : CYBERcodeur.net

  21. #21
    <C: web standards /> cybercodeur's Avatar
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    As usual Mattias your words sound true.

    This is also the road I try to take though it is not always the easy one.

    Opera is slowly climbing up the ladder in my view. I am just not sure about code coming out 100% perfect in other browsers if it comes out great in opera. If that were true, then this is what I'd do all the time.
    Denis Boudreau <C/> - Web Standards & Accessibility
    [+] ICQ number: 115649885 || Email: denis@cybercodeur.net
    [+] Daily Weblog on Web standards and accessibility : CYBERcodeur.net

  22. #22
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Originally posted by cybercodeur
    As usual Mattias your words sound true.
    Thank you, thank you.


    I am just not sure about code coming out 100% perfect in other browsers if it comes out great in opera. If that were true, then this is what I'd do all the time.
    Correct. What my sentence should say is:

    If you make your site work in Opera, it will probably work in the rest, too.
    Mattias Johansson
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  23. #23
    <C: web standards /> cybercodeur's Avatar
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    Well, so would coding for NS6 then, wouldn't it?
    Denis Boudreau <C/> - Web Standards & Accessibility
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  24. #24
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Originally posted by cybercodeur
    Well, so would coding for NS6 then, wouldn't it?
    Yeah, most likely, but Opera is still a bit more strict on the coding than NS..
    Mattias Johansson
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  25. #25
    SitePoint Evangelist =X='s Avatar
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    indeed, if it shows right in opera, then it should show good in other browsers - although the design is a bit different -> IE shows everything bigger then opera etc
    PHP-Webservices - Profesional Hosting and Programming of sites.


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