SitePoint Sponsor

User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 30
  1. #1
    SitePoint Guru rockit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    636
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Is This Sort of Menu Good Accessibility?

    I posted this menu http://www.alistapart.com/d/hybrid/hybrid-4.html on the css thread regarding something different. If you go to this menu, I am wondering how this stacks up accessibility-wise? Is this not a good practice to have on your website? The complete article is located here http://www.alistapart.com/articles/hybrid/.

  2. #2
    SitePoint Addict GonzaloGM's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Rosario, Argentina
    Posts
    213
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think it's good... I don't know much of accessibility, but if you disable CSS it's completely usable.

  3. #3
    SitePoint Guru rockit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    636
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    ya, well what i'm wondering is, if someone doesn't have a mouse, that how easy is it to navigate possibly?

    The problem i see is i hate using hacks or replacements for browser short-comings (IE).

  4. #4
    SitePoint Addict GonzaloGM's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Rosario, Argentina
    Posts
    213
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Well, you can use the keyboard. Use the tab key to browse through the elements, just like in any other website. Regarding the browser compatibility if I remember well it worked with most of the common browsers so you shouldn't worry about that.

  5. #5
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy C. Ankerstjerne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The Kingdom of Denmark
    Posts
    2,702
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Unordered lists are generally regarded as the semantically correct method of constructing menus after the MENU tag was deprecated. In all commonly used browsers except IE6, it is possible to use pure CSS to acheive a hover-based nested menu. If you want to support IE6, you will have to use Javascript, but if you don't, IE6 users will just have to click a few more times through the link hierarchy to get to the articles.
    Christian Ankerstjerne
    <p<strong<abbr/HTML/ 4 teh win</>
    <>In Soviet Russia, website codes you!

  6. #6
    SitePoint Zealot Enzyme Online's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    182
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    it's okay
    it's just weird looking at a really good photo in the background and then looking at this solid blue in front of it just looks akward
    cool otherwise

    I didn't bother looking at the source
    did you use javascript with css?
    Now up and running!
    Enzyme Online | Professional and Affordable Web Design

  7. #7
    SitePoint Guru rockit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    636
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    well that's not mine, that's Alistapart.

    Was just looking at the example and wondering possible pro's/con's.

  8. #8
    SitePoint Zealot Enzyme Online's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    182
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by rockit View Post
    well that's not mine, that's Alistapart.

    Was just looking at the example and wondering possible pro's/con's.
    oh okay

    I think the accessability's good
    it depends on what you have in the sub-navigation
    it it's something really important, it might matter.

    if it's less important and more specific to the main navigation, then it's good
    Now up and running!
    Enzyme Online | Professional and Affordable Web Design

  9. #9
    SitePoint Enthusiast
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario
    Posts
    75
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Razor87 View Post
    I think it's good... I don't know much of accessibility, but if you disable CSS it's completely usable.
    Im sorry and hate to be rude but... If you dont know then dont comment on what the person is asking for comments on.

    As for the accessibility, its suspect.

    I tried tabbing threw it with IE and Firefox and neither would activate the submenus so for a non-mouse user it wouldnt be considered accessible.

  10. #10
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy C. Ankerstjerne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The Kingdom of Denmark
    Posts
    2,702
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by SloppyJay
    If you dont know then dont comment on what the person is asking for comments on.
    Why not? Someone without professional knowledge are excellent for testing, since they don't have academical bias.

    Quote Originally Posted by SloppyJay
    I tried tabbing threw it with IE and Firefox and neither would activate the submenus so for a non-mouse user it wouldnt be considered accessible.
    Nonsense. If the main menu items leads to sub-menu pages, then the contents can still be reached. Accessibility is not about making a website exactly the same for everyone, but about allowing everyone to use the site to obtain the same information.
    Christian Ankerstjerne
    <p<strong<abbr/HTML/ 4 teh win</>
    <>In Soviet Russia, website codes you!

  11. #11
    SitePoint Enthusiast
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario
    Posts
    75
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by C. Ankerstjerne View Post
    Why not? Someone without professional knowledge are excellent for testing, since they don't have academical bias.

    Nonsense. If the main menu items leads to sub-menu pages, then the contents can still be reached. Accessibility is not about making a website exactly the same for everyone, but about allowing everyone to use the site to obtain the same information.
    Well the person commenting simply saying "I dont know much about accessibility but with CSS disabled its alright". Is far from an accessibility test. Its like me turning on the tap and saying "nothing wrong with this water", despite there being led in it.

    I disagree with your second point. If a non-mouse user has to go from one page to another to get to the same content that another user can get to with one click you have created an accessibility and usability barrier.

    You are right that accessibility isnt about making a website exactly the same for everyone, but it is about making a website as easily accessible for everyone. Adding the extra layer thus lessens the accessibility of the menu being used.

    Now if this menu is going to be used then when a user clicks on one of the main headings and is directed to another page will they be taken to the sub-menu items on that page or will it just load the page and start at the top.
    Last edited by SloppyJay; Jun 13, 2007 at 13:29.

  12. #12
    CSS & JS/DOM Adept bronze trophy
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,482
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Check this out: http://carroll.org.uk/sandbox/suckerfish/bones2.html

    Quote Originally Posted by SloppyJay
    Now if this menu is going to be used then when a user clicks on one of the main headings and is directed to another page will they be taken to the sub-menu items or back to the top of the page?
    Making the top level items in a menu links that don't go to another page would be very silly.
    We miss you, Dan Schulz.
    Learn CSS. | X/HTML Validator | CSS validator
    Dynamic Site Solutions
    Code for Firefox, Chrome, Safari, & Opera, then add fixes for IE, not vice versa.

  13. #13
    SitePoint Enthusiast
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario
    Posts
    75
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Kravvitz View Post
    Check this out: http://carroll.org.uk/sandbox/suckerfish/bones2.html


    Making the top level items in a menu links that don't go to another page would be very silly.
    yup my bad, I didnt explain myself very well at all.

  14. #14
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy C. Ankerstjerne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The Kingdom of Denmark
    Posts
    2,702
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by SloppyJay
    I disagree with your second point. If a non-mouse user has to go from one page to another to get to the same content that another user can get to with one click you have created an accessibility and usability barrier.
    Why? The user can still access the information. A LONGDESC is also located in a seperate file.
    Christian Ankerstjerne
    <p<strong<abbr/HTML/ 4 teh win</>
    <>In Soviet Russia, website codes you!

  15. #15
    CSS & JS/DOM Adept bronze trophy
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,482
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I agree with Christian. Making some people go to an extra page or two would be slower, but if that's what it takes... *shrugs* You could also provide a sitemap.

    The most important thing is that everybody can navigate to all pages, even if it takes a little longer for some people. I've seen several sites that only use (or mostly use) JavaScript generated navigation, so they fail in that regard.
    We miss you, Dan Schulz.
    Learn CSS. | X/HTML Validator | CSS validator
    Dynamic Site Solutions
    Code for Firefox, Chrome, Safari, & Opera, then add fixes for IE, not vice versa.

  16. #16
    SitePoint Enthusiast
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario
    Posts
    75
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by C. Ankerstjerne View Post
    Why? The user can still access the information. A LONGDESC is also located in a seperate file.
    Yes because longdesc goes indepth on one particular graph/chart/diagram. Its not the same thing so please don't compare the two.

  17. #17
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy C. Ankerstjerne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The Kingdom of Denmark
    Posts
    2,702
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    You are stating, that because the menu would force keybord users to go through one more page to get to the information, the menu is not accessible.

    Using a LONGDESC, the user will have to go through one more page to get the information.

    I don't see any difference in principle.
    Christian Ankerstjerne
    <p<strong<abbr/HTML/ 4 teh win</>
    <>In Soviet Russia, website codes you!

  18. #18
    SitePoint Enthusiast
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario
    Posts
    75
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Kravvitz View Post
    I agree with Christian. Making some people go to an extra page or two would be slower, but if that's what it takes... *shrugs* You could also provide a sitemap.

    The most important thing is that everybody can navigate to all pages, even if it takes a little longer for some people. I've seen several sites that only use (or mostly use) JavaScript generated navigation, so they fail in that regard.
    Sometimes, and I mean sometimes, it is the ONLY way to do something. However if this was the norm imagine how frustrated you would be having to navigate these sites without the use of a mouse and/or a screen. The mystery behind those menu items would be frustrating.

    If you were looking for something in particular and you had to click on each main navigation item to find it then go through the links how would you feel? Yes the IA should be intuitive enough, but how many people really do a real IA today, a lot yes, but not everyone, and even if they do create any form of an IA do they test it thoroughly

    And yes a person could use the search engine to find the information but how many times do searches bring up such a large range of results that its frustrating, especially on really large sites with multiple similar entires.

  19. #19
    SitePoint Enthusiast
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario
    Posts
    75
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by C. Ankerstjerne View Post
    You are stating, that because the menu would force keybord users to go through one more page to get to the information, the menu is not accessible.

    Using a LONGDESC, the user will have to go through one more page to get the information.

    I don't see any difference in principle.
    The navigation bar doesnt tell the user, "oh by the way this menu item has 5 submenu items that you will have to tab through on the next page to get to what you want, oh and the other 4 menu items have varying submenu items.

    While the chart/digram/graph should explicitly say in the alt text, graph of such and such, read the longdesc for detailed information.

    See the difference?

  20. #20
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy C. Ankerstjerne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The Kingdom of Denmark
    Posts
    2,702
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    No. Being a menu, it is implied that there will be more details if the user follows the link. It's no different than if there were no sub-menus at all.
    Christian Ankerstjerne
    <p<strong<abbr/HTML/ 4 teh win</>
    <>In Soviet Russia, website codes you!

  21. #21
    CSS & JS/DOM Adept bronze trophy
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,482
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by SloppyJay View Post
    If you were looking for something in particular and you had to click on each main navigation item to find it then go through the links how would you feel? Yes the IA should be intuitive enough, but how many people really do a real IA today, a lot yes, but not everyone, and even if they do create any form of an IA do they test it thoroughly
    What do you mean by "IA"?
    We miss you, Dan Schulz.
    Learn CSS. | X/HTML Validator | CSS validator
    Dynamic Site Solutions
    Code for Firefox, Chrome, Safari, & Opera, then add fixes for IE, not vice versa.

  22. #22
    SitePoint Enthusiast
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario
    Posts
    75
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Yes of course it is implied there will be more information, but its how much or what that is in question.

    I think Ive said this before but I'll try again.

    Tabbing threw the items WITH THIS MENU does NOT give the user the ability to READ what is within each section like others can SEE. They will have to goto each section, tab threw the navigation again to find the submenu items then get back to the main navigation again in order to try another menu item if what they wanted wasnt in their first, second, third choice.

    At its core this navigation menu is accessible, but its how it will be used that causes the problems.

    I probably should have been clearer throughout this thread

  23. #23
    SitePoint Enthusiast
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario
    Posts
    75
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Kravvitz View Post
    What do you mean by "IA"?
    Information Architecture

  24. #24
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy C. Ankerstjerne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The Kingdom of Denmark
    Posts
    2,702
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    So do you think it is accessible or not?
    Christian Ankerstjerne
    <p<strong<abbr/HTML/ 4 teh win</>
    <>In Soviet Russia, website codes you!

  25. #25
    SitePoint Zealot Enzyme Online's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    182
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    kinda
    I wouldn't use it personally

    do you have that much navigation?
    Now up and running!
    Enzyme Online | Professional and Affordable Web Design


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •