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  1. #76
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charmedlover View Post
    I am not really sure what Apple is gaining from putting Safari on Windows, except maybe taking a stab at Microsoft or something.
    It will:

    1) give them a larger market share, which is always a good thing;

    2) provide them with a platform to cross-promote their other products (e.g. iTunes);

    3) allow web developers who don't have Macs test their websites on Safari, thus increasing the number of sites that work properly on Safari; and

    4) help encourage web developers to take more seriously the need to write code to W3C HTML and CSS specifications (Apple has a whole section of webpages dedicated to this issue).

    --Edit--
    Correction, Apple actually linked to a webpage on Mozilla's site about the importance of coding to W3C specifications. It wasn't their own page. BTW: the page can be found at: http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs...your_Web_Pages
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  2. #77
    SitePoint Wizard HarryR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dAEk View Post
    I know it's a beta but

    • try clicking the address book icon -- Safari goes bye bye.
    • try adding a bookmark -- Safari goes bye bye.
    • try viewing the bookmarks -- Safari goes bye bye.
    • try moving the tabs for a while -- Safari goes bye bye.
    • try clicking the plus button (+) -- Safari goes bye bye.
    • try to show your browsing history -- Safari goes bye bye.


    Not to mention the rendering issues and frequent messages saying "Safari is missing important resources and should be reinstalled." It's way too early for using it daily imho. The Firefox beta's have been quite stable and I have not had much problems with the betas coming from Opera either, the Safari beta however, it needs a lot of work.
    That's really strange, I'm not getting any of those issues at all Looking pretty stable so far apart from some font issues here and there.

  3. #78
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryR View Post
    That's really strange, I'm not getting any of those issues at all Looking pretty stable so far apart from some font issues here and there.
    I'm not seeing any of those problems either (I'm running WinXP Pro, SP2). dAEk, it might be your computer causing the problems, not Safari.

    --EDIT--
    I found this article on the crashing issue: http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/06...ng_experience/

    Apparently some international users are having issues with Safari that U.S. users do not have (hence it is called beta).
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  4. #79
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Fun feature: you can resize any textarea in Safari 3.0 by dragging the lower right corner if you guys didn't know this already

    Quote Originally Posted by kimberlybarryd
    The Arial font looks terrible. Is this normal for this browser?
    Arial always looks bad, especially compared to Helvetica, the font it imitates

    This is either a font smoothing issue (which can be fixed with the advice given earlier in the thread), or it might be an issue with the actual fonts you have installed on your system.

    Quote Originally Posted by charmedlover View Post
    I am not really sure what Apple is gaining from putting Safari on Windows, except maybe taking a stab at Microsoft or something.
    1. Windows-centric developers can no longer ignore Safari, whether it's the Mac or Windows version, which happened A LOT before.
    2. Webapps are the only way to get your app on the iPhone. Safari is the iPhone's gateway to all webapps. If you don't have a Mac you can now actually write iPhone apps, unlike the speculation before where you would have needed a Mac, a copy of xCode and other developer tools, and an iPhone SDK.
    3. Apple likes to throw monkey wrenches around once in a while to keep everyone on their toes?

    This is really not a "we want to kill IE7" move. It's a "we want people to develop for Macs and iPhones without complaining about the cost of owning a Mac". I think it'll work.

  5. #80
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia View Post
    Fun feature: you can resize any textarea in Safari 3.0 by dragging the lower right corner if you guys didn't know this already
    Cool! That is really slick.


    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia View Post
    Arial always looks bad, especially compared to Helvetica, the font it imitates
    Agreed, Verdana is a much better choice for the reasons I've noted above.

    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia View Post
    This is either a font smoothing issue (which can be fixed with the advice given earlier in the thread), or it might be an issue with the actual fonts you have installed on your system.
    The thickness of the fonts is a font smoothing issue. Really Apple needs to work on this so that Safari renders text more like the other browsers. Really it would be nice if browsers would properly support numerical inputs for the font-weight style. This way web developers could get the exact text thickness they wanted and not have to settle for two or three pre-set thicknesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia View Post
    1. Windows-centric developers can no longer ignore Safari, whether it's the Mac or Windows version, which happened A LOT before.
    This is a really big reason and I personally am very excited to be able to test my sites on Safari. I want to provide my users the best experience I can regardless of which browser they use.

    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia View Post
    3. Apple likes to throw monkey wrenches around once in a while to keep everyone on their toes?
    Well it is getting everyone to talk about them.

    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia View Post
    This is really not a "we want to kill IE7" move. It's a "we want people to develop for Macs and iPhones without complaining about the cost of owning a Mac". I think it'll work.
    Agreed. I hated the idea of having to buy a Mac only so I could test my sites on Safari. It just seemed like a waste of money, hence I never did it.
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  6. #81
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLB View Post
    The thickness of the fonts is a font smoothing issue. Really Apple needs to work on this so that Safari renders text more like the other browsers.
    I'm kind of torn on this issue. From a user perspective, it's weird to come into Safari and see that the text rendering is different. I'll give you that.

    On the other hand, from a testing perspective Safari on Windows is rendering exactly like the Mac version, down to the fonts and form fields. It's a godsend from a testing perspective because you know things will work the same way across both OSes.

    On top of that, I do think there should be leeway in how each browser renders things, because otherwise there's little room for innovation if everyone is forced to interpret things the same way. And in that case there's little reason to have multiple browsers catering to different tastes.
    Quote Originally Posted by KLB
    Really it would be nice if browsers would properly support numerical inputs for the font-weight style. This way web developers could get the exact text thickness they wanted and not have to settle for two or three pre-set thicknesses.
    No argument there, but I don't see it happening in any browser soon really
    Quote Originally Posted by KLB
    This is a really big reason and I personally am very excited to be able to test my sites on Safari. I want to provide my users the best experience I can regardless of which browser they use.
    Well I'm glad to see you've reversed your position from the Opera debacle a couple years ago

  7. #82
    SitePoint Zealot Enzyme Online's Avatar
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    just wondering

    why does everyone use that picture of a bug?
    Now up and running!
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  8. #83
    He's No Good To Me Dead silver trophybronze trophy stymiee's Avatar
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    It's alright. I didn't go "wow" or anything but it looks ok. At least now testing will be easier.

  9. #84
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzyme Online View Post
    just wondering

    why does everyone use that picture of a bug?
    Off Topic:

    A really old forums joke that hasn't been funny for about 2 years now. If you really want to know, search for "Everybody do the stymiee"

    Quote Originally Posted by stymiee
    t's alright. I didn't go "wow" or anything but it looks ok. At least now testing will be easier.
    And that's pretty much the reaction that Apple is banking on getting. Even if you don't use it daily but you still keep it in mind when testing, it's worked.

  10. #85
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jelena's Avatar
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    Possible problem with fonts is if you have more than 800 fonts installed on your windows.

    Some of the people said this worked for them:
    1. Copy the Lucida Grande font files to the \Windows\Fonts directory.
    2. Rename the Safari.resources folder to something else.
    3. Try to start Safari, get an error message, and dismiss the message.
    4. Name Safari.resources back to its original name.
    5. Start Safari.

    While it did helped me to see navigation bar, it still loads sites without showing text on them
    -- Jelena --

  11. #86
    SitePoint Addict dAEk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLB View Post
    I'm not seeing any of those problems either (I'm running WinXP Pro, SP2). dAEk, it might be your computer causing the problems, not Safari.

    --EDIT--
    I found this article on the crashing issue: http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/06...ng_experience/

    Apparently some international users are having issues with Safari that U.S. users do not have (hence it is called beta).
    I use an English operating system at home but use a Swedish one at work, Safari crashes like crazy on both. The link above did help (at work) - thanks for posting it here.
    It has not crashed on me since I edited those foldernames.

    Oh, the address book icon is actually the icon for the bookmarks.
    Last edited by dAEk; Jun 12, 2007 at 10:31. Reason: zpelling errors
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  12. #87
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia View Post
    On the other hand, from a testing perspective Safari on Windows is rendering exactly like the Mac version, down to the fonts and form fields. It's a godsend from a testing perspective because you know things will work the same way across both OSes.
    Yes, Safari on Macs and Windows need to render identically to each other, however Safari needs to change the way it handles fonts overall. We need uniformity on issues like this between different browsers.


    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia View Post
    On top of that, I do think there should be leeway in how each browser renders things, because otherwise there's little room for innovation if everyone is forced to interpret things the same way. And in that case there's little reason to have multiple browsers catering to different tastes.
    Yes and no. Certain things MUST be interpreted the exact same way between browsers this is why there are standards. Web designers/developers need to be able to know that if they strictly follow standards their webpages will display the way they intended across a wide range of browsers and OSes.

    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia View Post
    Well I'm glad to see you've reversed your position from the Opera debacle a couple years ago
    I have always felt this way, HOWEVER, Opera had become parasitic in their business model. Users being able to use whatever browser they want doesn't come at the expense of the web publisher. There has to be a balance or everything breaks down. If a specific browser causes harm to a web publisher (e.g. displays predatory ads of its own), the web publisher is within their rights to block said browser.

    NOTE: I do not want to sidetrack this thread over the Opera Google RAD issue as it is ancient history. Those who want to debate this issue one way or another should dig up one of the countless old threads on this topic. This thread is about Safari NOT Opera.
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  13. #88
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLB View Post
    Yes, Safari on Macs and Windows need to render identically to each other, however Safari needs to change the way it handles fonts overall. We need uniformity on issues like this between different browsers.
    What. Your sentence is a direct contradiction really. Either Safari/Win renders like Safari/Mac or it doesn't. And do you really need uniformity on something as personal, nit-picky, and inconsistent between computers as font smoothing? I can't expect two computers with IE to be the same because one could have cleartype on and the other could have it off, I don't see how you can expect font smoothing to be consistent across ALL browsers and operating systems.

    Long story short: I think Safari/Win should be a better Windows citizen, but there are about 1000 other issues I'd fix to aid in that goal before the fonts.

    Quote Originally Posted by KLB
    Yes and no. Certain things MUST be interpreted the exact same way between browsers this is why there are standards. Web designers/developers need to be able to know that if they strictly follow standards their webpages will display the way they intended across a wide range of browsers and OSes.
    Yes, but even with standards you're not guaranteed that things will render consistently because the standards themselves aren't always clear (see float behavior in the CSS2 specs for example). And when the standard is ambiguous I think there's room for browser vendors to innovate there. One of them is going to work better than the rest, and that's a good time to update the standard and adopt the "best" method.

    I really like what the WHATWG is doing for HTML in this regard; their specs/standards seem to be going well beyond what the W3C normally proposes and they're actually defining things in much mroe detail.

  14. #89
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia View Post
    What. Your sentence is a direct contradiction really. Either Safari/Win renders like Safari/Mac or it doesn't.
    Just bad typing. What I mean is that in default mode, browsers need to render pages basically the same way, which includes how fonts look. If the user decides to override the default settings of the browser (e.g. font styling) and it breaks something that is the problem of the user, not the webmaster.

    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia View Post
    And do you really need uniformity on something as personal, nit-picky, and inconsistent between computers as font smoothing?
    We aren't talking about a small difference in appearance. Safari is making text almost twice as heavy as any other browser. It is so heavy in some instances on my site that letters are actually blending into each other. A little font smoothing or a little difference in font thickness is one thing, but this is a very significant difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia View Post
    Long story short: I think Safari/Win should be a better Windows citizen, but there are about 1000 other issues I'd fix to aid in that goal before the fonts.
    This isn't about Safari being a better Windows citizen, it is about rendering consistency between different browsers on different OSes. This is after all why there are web standards and why we constantly lecture web developers to validate their code to W3C HTML and CSS specifications. What Safari's inconsistency with fonts will do is cause some web developers to deploy browser sniffing to force Safari to render the text of their pages "properly", which is exactly what we are trying to get people to stop doing via teaching people to use web standards.


    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia View Post
    Yes, but even with standards you're not guaranteed that things will render consistently because the standards themselves aren't always clear.
    And in those cases the way new browsers render things (e.g. font weight) should follow what the majority is already doing especially if it isn't a real improvement to do it differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia View Post
    I really like what the WHATWG is doing for HTML in this regard; their specs/standards seem to be going well beyond what the W3C normally proposes and they're actually defining things in much mroe detail.
    I have been following this for a while now and am excited about the prospects of there being an HTML5 specification that would more tightly define the way browsers are expected to behave. Unfortunately once those specifications are adopted it could still take another 5 to 10 years before they were the norm and fully implemented by the majority of browsers in use.
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  15. #90
    SitePoint Enthusiast Daniel Primed's Avatar
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    I downloaded Safari with great anticipation and this is what I was presented with. The text in the search bar was also there, I didn't input it myself.



    Anybody got any ideas?

  16. #91
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Primed View Post
    I downloaded Safari with great anticipation and this is what I was presented with. The text in the search bar was also there, I didn't input it myself.



    Anybody got any ideas?
    Maybe your problem is what is being reported here: http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/06...ng_experience/
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  17. #92
    In memoriam gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Schulz's Avatar
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    I'm sure some of you remember deathshadow (a former member here) - here's what he had to say on another forum (it's not related to Web design, and is one of those sites that most employers would try to block, so I'm going to copy his thoughts here and clean them up a bit):
    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow
    nstaller layout broken on large font machines? Check.

    Stupid 'value added' (Bonjour???) crudware? Check.

    Annoying auto-updater as a standalone applet/service? Check.

    Ignores the native UI to use it's own? Check.

    Ignores the system metric and font settings so all the menus are too small and %/EM and PT sized fonts don't scale up? Check.

    That last one is interesting because Safari uses the OSX font rendering engine instead of the windows one - in fact it looks like large portions of OSX are API wrapped to run the program instead of a true 'windows native' version of the code - this is nothing new since Firefox runs atop XUL and a great many applications are built atop Trident's rendering engine... But Leopard was supposed to make the entire UI vector based with all elements fully scaleable. Did that get the axe yet? (I say yet because I've suspected all along this would get pulled from Leopard before release - I'm willing to bet that's why it's been pushed forward 8 months)

    On a positive note, you can choose NOT to install the "Bonjour" crudware and auto-updater. I'm all for auto-updating, but I think Opera and Firefox got it right - do it when I run the... program, don't install another [needless] service to sit there chewing CPU and memory for something that shouldn't even happen but every few months.

    Still, I have to say this is more than welcome and for a Beta, it's not bad at all if for no other reason than it means a couple hundred less watts power use for me - It means I can (assuming they keep the OSX and Windows versions rendering engines on the same... codebase) retire my [Mac]... and NEVER have to touch OSX just to test one browser ever again. This is a huge boon to web developers on a budget who cannot justify the cost of owning a Mac, or people like myself who cannot actually get any real WORK done on in OSX without cursing it to the 9th circle of hell.

    I'm seeing across the web a lot of conflicting reports about speed - I'm suspecting it could be hardware related. Trying to run OSX on a standard PC you have the issue that not all PC CPU's have SSE2 or SSE3 - I'm wondering if they are calling those functions and emulating them if missing, which would explain why CPU consumption is way up and speed is way down for some people. (Which I'm not encountering at all on my A64 4000+ San Diego, which DOES support SSE3). I know iTunes under OSX requires both SSE2 and SSE3 unless you hack the tar out of it, and even then it never quite runs right - and Rosetta likewise requires it... if we are looking at some form of API wrapper and port of significant portions of OSX, that could be the cause of people seeing slowdowns.

    It could also be a 2d video acceleration issue. I'm on a 640 meg 8800GTS - there is no such thing as video slowdown on my card... Older video cards, or worse integrated chipsets may be seeing major slowdowns and/or video corruption. I know SIS video chipsets for example have rendering problems on bold and italic fonts if their 2d acceleration is turned up all the way. (In XP/2K - display properties > settings > advanced > troubleshoot, turn down the slider one notch, corruption goes away)

    Some people are also claiming memory and cpu use WAY out of league with what I had been seeing on the desktop - this leads me to believe certain modules are being loaded and/or unloaded based on the available hardware... Some people are reporting 100-120k footprint if you start it up with nothing but google showing - where my own results are around 55K, just under double what I consider the norm for other browsers (28-29K)

    I did try it out on my 1ghz P3 laptop - and it's pretty much unusable. Agonizingly slow, 50% cpu use ALL THE TIME, EVEN WHEN MINIMIZED... So... Yeah, hardware. Anything lower in specs than a Mac Mini probably isn't going to run it very well... and there are a LOT of PC's out there with less CPU than the mini. Not everyone has sunk money into Pentium D's, Athlon X2's or Core processors yet... and how many PC users are still stuck on... integrated video?

    I suspect Safari on PC is NOT for them, with the Celeron D or better being the 'you must be this tall' stick. I'm going to try it on a few more machines, I'll post up my results... I'm interested to see what a non-SSE3 but semi-modern CPU like a A64 3000+ or Pentium 4 does to it, much less non-SSE2 cpu's like the Athlon XP. I've really got the feeling a SSE emulation layer is one of the root causes of it being slow on some machines.

    Oh, and I see trying to select a block of text with the mouse works in that same... method as it does under OSX.

    *** ADDENDUM ***

    My bad, speed comparison to OSX was faulty - I was comparing Safari 2 on OSX to Safari 3 Windows. Safari 3 on OSX is just as fast as it's windows counterpart, meaning there have been MAJOR speed improvements to the codebase for 3.

    Which is MORE than welcome - the Safari DOM when it came to manipulating elements was a joke, holding back a lot of AJAX programs from being viable on that platform.
    Just a word of warning that I'd share with you all - and yes, he is a friend of mine.

  18. #93
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    As far as the SSE2/3 thing goes:

    I'm running Safari 3 on a really old PC (2.0GHz Pentium 4 Netburst-style from like 2001/2002) and I'm not seeing any performance issues. I don't think performance problems are related to the lack of SSE3 like deathshadow is thinking of.

  19. #94
    In memoriam gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Schulz's Avatar
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    Vinnie, I'll be sure to pass it along to him. I can't wait to get home and see how my 933mH Pentium III and ASUS TUSI-M board handle it though, but if he's right, well let's just say I won't be a happy Mentor.

  20. #95
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    i downloaded this as soon as i found it. apart from the cleartype issue, ive also had a problem with it substituting in a custom font 'linkin' for helvatica. which is kinda weird...

    nevertheless its working well as a browser...

  21. #96
    SitePoint Evangelist
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    I find Mac's font rendering to be better than Windows' ClearType, so I might get used to this browser. I haven't downloaded yet but seeing that I already use iTunes for my main music player, it wouldn't look too out of place.

  22. #97
    Follow Me On Twitter: @djg gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Grossman's Avatar
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    After the years of pointing out Windows security flaws as an Apple advantage, it's kinda nice to see the dozens of zero-day bugs, vulnerabilities, and remote execution exploits being discussed on hundreds of blogs. Already.

    If you didn't catch that, it's actually a bit dangerous to browse the web with Safari 3 beta right now. There are remote execution vulnerabilities actively being exploited that require nothing more than visiting one of the malicious websites.

    Welcome to Windows, Apple.

    http://technorati.com/search/safari+vulnerability

  23. #98
    SitePoint Wizard holmescreek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Grossman View Post
    After the years of pointing out Windows security flaws as an Apple advantage, it's kinda nice to see the dozens of zero-day bugs, vulnerabilities, and remote execution exploits being discussed on hundreds of blogs. Already.
    You made a very good point Dan. I'm a mac user running windows under parallels if I were a windows user, I would recommend doing the same.

    It might be weird running XP inside an XP vpc/parallels box, but at least you have a nice little sandbox to play around in (provided you turn off VPC access to your USB, FW, or other drives to prevent any nasties from spreading)
    intragenesis, llc professional web & graphic design

  24. #99
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    Overall I like it, but it is a little slower than Firefox. Maybe that will change once it gets out of beta.

  25. #100
    SitePoint Zealot kimberlybarryd's Avatar
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    Screenshot of Arial Font.http://homesincolchester.ca/screenshot.htm Is this the way Safari looks with Arial?


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