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  1. #126
    SitePoint Zealot Enzyme Online's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haleden View Post
    Reasons for Windows (aka PC) over Mac:

    - Right-click
    exactly
    one-click mouse is weird and doesn't seem very effective
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  2. #127
    In memoriam gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Schulz's Avatar
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    Uhm, you do know you can use your own mouse, right?

    Now will someone please explain to me why mine won't work? Oh yeah, that's right. Mine has four legs and fur.

  3. #128
    SitePoint Zealot Enzyme Online's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Schulz View Post
    Uhm, you do know you can use your own mouse, right?

    Now will someone please explain to me why mine won't work? Oh yeah, that's right. Mine has four legs and fur.
    never knew that
    why don't mac users just do that?
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  4. #129
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzyme Online View Post
    never knew that
    why don't mac users just do that?
    A lot of us do (I use a MS Intellimouse, all the extra buttons work and are mapped to various functions). Or you can use 2 finger tapping to emulate a right-click if you're on a laptop.

  5. #130
    SitePoint Wizard mcsolas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia View Post
    A lot of us do (I use a MS Intellimouse, all the extra buttons work and are mapped to various functions).
    Nice! I use the same ones. My left and right buttons are copy/paste respectively. People think its magic when they watch me use the computer, cuz things just start 'appearing' but Im not touching the keyboard.

    Is this hard to configure?
    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia View Post
    Or you can use 2 finger tapping to emulate a right-click if you're on a laptop.
    CTRL-Click works as well. I had to figure that one out when I had all the USB ports connected to hard drives. Its been nice to learn a few basic mac skills

  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia View Post
    Price has been done in this thread, read up on it. It's not that much of a premium to get a Mac anymore, if any at all.

    What am I missing here?


    ThinkPad T60 Series $1,788.00

    Processor: Intel® Core™ 2 Duo processor T7600 (2.33GHz, 4MB L2, 667MHz FSB)

    Operating system: Genuine Windows Vista Home Premium

    Display type: 15.4 WXGA TFT

    System graphics: ATI Mobility Radeon X1400 128MB

    Total memory: 2 GB PC2-5300 DDR2 SDRAM 667MHz SODIMM Memory (2 DIMM)

    Hard drive: 120GB Hard Disk Drive, 5400rpm

    Optical device: CD-RW/DVD-ROM Combo 24X/24X/24X/8X Max, Ultrabay Slim


    http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/c...062AAEBCA813BF


    Mac Book Pro $2,499.00

    2.4GHz Intel Core 2 Duo

    2GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM - 2x1GB

    160GB Serial ATA Drive @ 5400 rpm

    SuperDrive 8x (DVD±R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)

    MacBook Pro 15-inch Widescreen Display


    http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPL...kKXUKsC/5.?p=0

  7. #132
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    Because even Safari is now available on Windows^^

  8. #133
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcsolas View Post
    Nice! I use the same ones. My left and right buttons are copy/paste respectively. People think its magic when they watch me use the computer, cuz things just start 'appearing' but Im not touching the keyboard.
    I have them mapped to dashboard/expose
    Quote Originally Posted by mcsolas
    Is this hard to configure?CTRL-Click works as well. I had to figure that one out when I had all the USB ports connected to hard drives. Its been nice to learn a few basic mac skills
    It's pretty easy to set up if you have a laptop that supports it (any Intel laptop, and I believe newish Powerbook G4s). It should be in System Prefs under Mouse and Keyboard (or whatever it's called, i forget the exact name now)

  9. #134
    SitePoint Addict jpease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cringer View Post
    What am I missing here?
    What are you missing? An accurate comparison, that's what!

    Your ThinkPad has a 120GB HD vs the MacBook Pro 160GB HD.
    Your ThinkPad has a 2.33GHz CPU vs the MacBook Pro 2.4GHz CPU
    Your ThinkPad has a DVD-ROM vs the MacBook Pro DVD±RW
    Your ThinkPad has ATI Mobility Radeon X1400 128MB the MacBook Pro NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT 256MB
    Your ThinkPad does not have a web cam, the MacBook Pro does.
    Your ThinkPad does not appear to have Bluetooth, the MacBook Pro does.
    Your ThinkPad does not come with a remote, the MacBook Pro does.
    Your ThinkPad comes with a "home" version of the OS, the MacBook Pro comes with the full pro version.
    Your ThinkPad comes with a 667MHz FSB, the MacBook Pro 800MHz FSB

    Just a few of the details that came to mind as far as the equality of the items you are comparing. I'm not trying to say it is impossible to configure a cheaper equally equipped ThinkPad than a MacBook Pro - but your comparison is not an accurate representation of that.

  10. #135
    SitePoint Wizard mcsolas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia View Post
    I have them mapped to dashboard/expose
    I can see how these are useful to have handy as well.

    I was wondering what button my buddy hit the other day when all the windows re-organized themselves....

  11. #136
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cringer View Post
    What am I missing here?
    Slightly slower processor, last generation processor in the thinkpad vs the Macbook Pro (Merom vs Santa Rosa), no LED screen option in the Thinkpad which increases battery life, no DVD burner in the thinkpad, worse graphics card in the thinkpad (radeon x1400 vs geforce 8600), no webcam built into the thinkpad, slower FSB in the thinkpad (667MHz vs 800)

    That's just off the top of my head. Not to mention the differences in software...

  12. #137
    SitePoint Wizard mcsolas's Avatar
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    By the way - I forgot to mention 1 more issue.

    I found (useful) information on troubleshooting macs to be scarce in comparison to researching similar issues for a pc.

    In many cases, I found almost nothing on the subject. Especially for video editing issues.

    I ended up reading a good portion of the 3 volume set of final cut manuals.
    It was the only place I found useful info. (Imagine that)

    Still, some issues were not easy to figure out... even when using both the books and the internet.

  13. #138
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    I say Mac is the way to go. At present, price should not be a issue as much as before. You can install Windows and still have functional computer that is not odd.

  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpease View Post
    What are you missing? An accurate comparison, that's what!

    Your ThinkPad has a 120GB HD vs the MacBook Pro 160GB HD.
    Your ThinkPad has a 2.33GHz CPU vs the MacBook Pro 2.4GHz CPU
    Your ThinkPad has a DVD-ROM vs the MacBook Pro DVD±RW
    Your ThinkPad has ATI Mobility Radeon X1400 128MB the MacBook Pro NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT 256MB
    Your ThinkPad does not have a web cam, the MacBook Pro does.
    Your ThinkPad does not appear to have Bluetooth, the MacBook Pro does.
    Your ThinkPad does not come with a remote, the MacBook Pro does.
    Your ThinkPad comes with a "home" version of the OS, the MacBook Pro comes with the full pro version.
    Your ThinkPad comes with a 667MHz FSB, the MacBook Pro 800MHz FSB

    Just a few of the details that came to mind as far as the equality of the items you are comparing. I'm not trying to say it is impossible to configure a cheaper equally equipped ThinkPad than a MacBook Pro - but your comparison is not an accurate representation of that.
    The only thing in that list that is a noticable difference (at least to me) is the nVidia geforce.

    Everything else can be either upgraded on the Thinkpad for negligible cost or I'd never notice the difference anyway (like 2.33 dual core vs. a 2.4 for example)

  15. #140
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cringer View Post
    The only thing in that list that is a noticable difference (at least to me) is the nVidia geforce.

    Everything else can be either upgraded on the Thinkpad for negligible cost or I'd never notice the difference anyway (like 2.33 dual core vs. a 2.4 for example)
    Then you probably shouldn't ask for a direct comparison if you're going to dismiss everything that makes the two systems different.

  16. #141
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    The amazing thing about the never ending Mac vs. PC debate is how different the two sides are. The PC users tend to argue that the PC's work better for them because of pragmatic reasons, such as price or compatibility. They don't really express much love for the PC or much hate for the Mac.

    The Mac users, though, delight in using terms like 'Micro$ft' and taking cheap shots at Bill Gates. The love Macs not just because they love Macs, it's also because most of them seem to loathe PC's! Even the recent Apple commercials play on this, with Macs and PC's personified and the Mac guy making the PC guy look like an idiot.

    Today on the BBC news site I there was an article about the new Safari-for-Windows thing. This quote is very telling:

    JupiterResearch analyst Michael Gartenberg said the new features would give developers "the tools to create the next generation of applications".

    Writing on his blog, he said: "Apple has once again taken their platform to the next step and given developers the framework they need. It also looks and feels really cool and perhaps that's even more important."
    To me, that's crazy! I love a machine that looks cool but there is just no way that it's anywhere near as important as the functionality. I frequently work with government agencies and I can tell you that when a citizen of the public is having their court case, their welfare check, their food stamps, or their restraining order managed by a system that my team works on they couldn't care less how 'cool' the computers used to make it are. In fact, we are going for the simple bang-for-the-buck - trying to get as much functionality we can for the available budget.

    While my workstation at home is decidedly 'cooler' than what the government provides it's workers, I still don't bother too much with elegance and fancy stuff. It just doesn't make my work better or help my business. Perhaps a little bit, sure, but not as much as just spending less and focusing on the work itself.

    The problem is not that PC users don't that much how much cooler the Mac is. They know it's cooler -they just don't use them for whatever reason.

    I rarely, if ever, meet a PC user who dislikes Macs to any great degree. They don't seem to care that much about the whole thing. That said, I rarely meet a Mac user who isn't absolutely, dogmatically, emotionally, emphatically a Mac user and a PC basher. (in fairness, there are examples of levelheaded mac users on this very thread, but they are in the minority!).

    A Mac just wouldn't work for me because of the kind of work I do. I do like the hardware, but OSX just doesn't interest me because I'd need Windows anyways.

    And anyways, to me a computer is just a tool. It's the words that I type, the code that I write, the designs I make that I am proud of an interested in. Sure, Macs are cool, but who cares when what I am really interested is the result of my efforts at the keyboard. If a Windows box gets me there faster, ok by me. If I switch to Mac (as I have before) that's ok, too.

    It's amazing how emotional people get about this! After all, they always wind up in the trash heap after a few years (like most cars) so why get so loyal to a brand? I see my computers as a tool, no more and no less.
    The fewer our wants, the nearer we resemble the gods. — Socrates

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  17. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia View Post
    Then you probably shouldn't ask for a direct comparison if you're going to dismiss everything that makes the two systems different.
    Sorry - I didn't mean to ask for a direct comparison.

    What I was after was the reason that 2 pretty similar machines are $800 apart. Not to hate on Macs... just because I am genuinely curious as I recently purchased a notebook and did a lot of speccing builds and prices (including mac book pros).

    So I am not dimissing or denying the differences, I am searching for the additional $800 added value:

    Your ThinkPad has a 120GB HD vs the MacBook Pro 160GB HD. $45 upgrade
    Your ThinkPad has a 2.33GHz CPU vs the MacBook Pro 2.4GHz CPU Negligible
    Your ThinkPad has a DVD-ROM vs the MacBook Pro DVD±RW $50 Upgrade
    Your ThinkPad has ATI Mobility Radeon X1400 128MB the MacBook Pro NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT 256MB big difference that I missed
    Your ThinkPad does not have a web cam, the MacBook Pro does. IIRC this was a free option, at least on the T61's
    Your ThinkPad does not appear to have Bluetooth, the MacBook Pro does. The thinkpads have blue tooth. You can remove it for -$30.
    Your ThinkPad does not come with a remote, the MacBook Pro does. okay
    Your ThinkPad comes with a "home" version of the OS, the MacBook Pro comes with the full pro version. upgrade to buisness $30.
    Your ThinkPad comes with a 667MHz FSB, the MacBook Pro 800MHz FSB Who would ever notice the difference?


    That's why I recognize only the video card as a sizable difference.


    Here is the bottom line, per apple's web site you cannot aquire a mac book pro for less than $2,000... that's for the cheapest model. If you wanna jazz it up you're looking at $2,500 minimum. That's a high price tag.


    The new T-61's have santa rosa chips, Nvidia cards, web cams, and all kinds of other cool stuff and you can still build a "souped up" model comparable to the better mac books for well under 2 grand.


    So having recently shopped around, I notice when people claim there is no price difference anymore. There certainly still is.

  18. #143
    SitePoint Addict Trent Reimer's Avatar
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    I was actually saving up for a Mac when I was strolling through the local nerd store on an unrelated errand and they made me an offer on a de-branded PC I really couldn't refuse. I took it home and promptly installed Linux. It hasn't missed a beat and I've happily upgraded Linux every six months free of charge.

    I keep telling myself my next computer will be a Mac. I have to say, if it wasn't for Ubuntu that day would become a lot more urgent. I suspect I will have a Linux partition even on my Mac.

    p.s. I like Opera too even though it's not my primary browser.

  19. #144
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    1. I'm used to Linux. As a high school kid playing with computers and realizing there's more to the world than Windows, Linux was readily available. A $1000+ Mac was not. Now I could afford a Mac, but why bother? I have years of Linux experience and it does everything I want out of a computer.
    2. FOSS stuff is really great. I get the impression that there is lots of shareware and proprietary software on Macs. On Linux, everything is free. Very nice, and very easy to work with.

  20. #145
    ********* wombat firepages's Avatar
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    but why bother? I have years of Linux experience and it does everything I want out of a computer
    The only valid reason we had posted here was that the Mac was the only platform that lets you test (for web developers) on all 3 major platforms , with the release of Safari for windows thats out the window.

    So its back to looks or the OS itself, you can have all the power of *NIX for free so I don't see the OS itself as a bargain, & that brings us back to looks.

    The original question, why don't I use a Mac? because the look's are not worth the extra $ (for me personally anyway)

  21. #146
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    Quote Originally Posted by firepages View Post
    The only valid reason we had posted here was that the Mac was the only platform that lets you test (for web developers) on all 3 major platforms , with the release of Safari for windows thats out the window.
    aren't konq and safari basically the same though? and with safari for windows, that will soon be on linux too by way of wine.

  22. #147
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    First of all, because of the cost. Then there's the fact that all companies I worked for use Windows. So it would be difficult to shift from one to another. But I must admit that lately i've been tempted to switch. Only because MAC always look good.

  23. #148
    SitePoint Zealot Enzyme Online's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia View Post
    A lot of us do (I use a MS Intellimouse, all the extra buttons work and are mapped to various functions). Or you can use 2 finger tapping to emulate a right-click if you're on a laptop.
    niceee
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  24. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sagewing View Post
    The amazing thing about the never ending Mac vs. PC debate is how different the two sides are. The PC users tend to argue that the PC's work better for them because of pragmatic reasons, such as price or compatibility. They don't really express much love for the PC or much hate for the Mac.

    The Mac users, though, delight in using terms like 'Micro$ft' and taking cheap shots at Bill Gates. The love Macs not just because they love Macs, it's also because most of them seem to loathe PC's! Even the recent Apple commercials play on this, with Macs and PC's personified and the Mac guy making the PC guy look like an idiot.
    Speaking myself, I feel like I've been scr@wed by Microsoft, in so many ways - and I'm not alone. I wouldn't say I loathe PC's, but I do have an attitude towards Microsoftware.

    As for taking cheap shots at Bill Gates, you know what they say: What goes around, comes around. I suspect politics plays a considerable role in the popularity of Mac computers, just as it does with Firefox.

  25. #150
    SitePoint Addict jpease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cringer View Post
    What I was after was the reason that 2 pretty similar machines are $800 apart.

    So I am not dimissing or denying the differences, I am searching for the additional $800 added value.
    Good question. And I think the answer is rather simple.

    First, to close the gap in the $800, you have to correct the differences. With the two specs you gave us, the MacBook Pro is clearly the superior machine in many respects. I didn't look at the interface connections on the ThinkPad, but the MBP has FW400 & FW800 connections - which could be important to some users. The high end graphics card in the MBP allows connection of dual monitors. I suspect once you corrected those the gap would be closer to $500. And if you couldn't add those onto the ThinkPad, that might be a deal breaker for certain people. If they want dual monitors and the ability to import video by Firewire800, then the extra money gets them what they want / need.

    Second, how do you account for the final $500? Marketing. I doubt anyone here would say that Apple isn't at least pretty smart about marketing. The MacBook Pro is marketed generally at those looking for a top of the line laptop - graphic, audio, video, code pros. People making lots of money with their computers, or those who want to look like it. In my opinion the MacBook Pro is a great computer, but you are also paying for the status simple (which is why I bought a vanilla MacBook instead). I think Apple wants to maintain their image as a high-end hardware provider - they don't want to compete on price alone.

    So if you are looking for price comparisons (as I was when I was looking for my next machine), you really need to look at the MacBook line. Personally I found the price comparable (or cheaper) than Dells (see above post). It's a great little computer with lots of nice little industrial design features that Apple is known for - without the hefty price of a "pro" version. Add a Dell 20" monitor onto it and you are good to go.

    So in conclusion, MacBook Pro is not about price.
    MacBook is about price.
    Two different marketing tactics.
    Based on sales, I would guess both tactics are working in their respective markets.


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