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  1. #126
    Brevity is greatly overrated brandaggio's Avatar
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    @charmedlover
    My thing with Apple is that they can do a really fine job when they want to and considering the amount of resources thrown into the iPhone I think at least from a consumer browsing experience perspective - it looks like it will deliver. If you are a mobile developer you better be aware of its quirks. Safari on the iPhone won't be going away any time soon.

    I actually do know how to code for mobiles (really - I care about this sort of stuff to a fault) and that is one of the reasons I always have Opera on hand, at the same time I think Apple's approach of rendering the regular styles is a pragmatic one, albeit different from Opera's take.

    What I am getting at is that there is more than one way to skin a cat and in the end what the average consumer wants will drive the market more than what we geeks think is the most elegant/best approach (I am fan of standards, forward leaning features, progressive enhancement/graceful degradation and print, screen and handheld styles).

    I think that Apple will make sure that the web browsing experience on the iPhone is close to the best on any available mobile (if not better) - or not bother - like the iPod, we can point out particular features or functionality it lacks, but on the whole it does represent the best in its class (for both hardware and software - and their seamless integration). So there is a precedent set where Apple just might raise the bar - and do it thinking differently. Sometimes less is indeed more (see Occam's razor).

    (BTW I posted this via Opera - for Mac - and am digging on Speed Dial - very, very cool indeed.)

  2. #127
    SitePoint Wizard samsm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charmedlover View Post
    Considering most people who have praised Firefox for being open source have failed to also provide their operating system, it causes me to raise the question if they even understand open source or if they are just spouting useless reitteration someone else told them...
    That's silly.

    You can be in favor of open source and not go 100% open source for practical reasons. Switching to Firefox is much easier than switching to Linux.

    Or you can think that open source is a mark in the plus column, but when faced with a superior option go proprietary instead. If you care about open source this is probably your rationale whether you choose Opera or Firefox.

    I don't know of anyone who makes a 100% commitment to every single thing they believe in ... I doubt it is practical or possible.
    Using your unpaid time to add free content to SitePoint Pty Ltd's portfolio?

  3. #128
    He's No Good To Me Dead silver trophybronze trophy stymiee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProBlogging View Post
    I merely dislike the user interface.
    That's what keeps me from using it as well. Although at this point I have grown dependent on so many extensions that switching would be painful to do at this point.

  4. #129
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    opera is not free software

  5. #130
    SitePoint Addict CaryD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aardvark Freak View Post
    opera is not free software
    You are correct by their definition, but wrong by mine. Ah, semantics.

  6. #131
    In memoriam gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Schulz's Avatar
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    Oh God, somebody please shoot me.

    Opera is free. You don't have to pay for it. Just because it hasn't been released under an open source license that Stallman approves of doesn't mean it's not free. It's just a different kind of free. Like "free, as in beer."

  7. #132
    ********* wombat firepages's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charmedlover View Post
    ... open source have failed to also provide their operating system, it causes me to raise the question if they even understand open source or if they are just spouting useless reitteration someone else told them...
    quite possibly

    me : firefox : ubuntu edgy

    not that I think that a product not being open-source is a reason to not use a product, thats daft.... & we still have to test in IE.

    Problem is there are too many browsers to test for, and since opera can masquerade as whatever I don't feel the need.

    I have not tried opera for years but downloading now* to see if its changed .. if I recall correctly I really never much liked the interface.

    Edit:

    actually #apt-get install opera .. gives me v 9.21 which appears to be current

    Edit:

    hmmm looks like any other browser

  8. #133
    In memoriam gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Schulz's Avatar
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    The answer (from a developer's POV) is obvious. Don't test for browsers. Test against rendering engines. And for that, there are only four you need to worry about (I'm only going to list the dominant browser in each category, if applicable): Trident (IE), Gecko (Firefox), Presto (Opera), KHTML/WebKit (Konqueror, Safari).

    Do that, and you'll be fine in 99% of cases.

  9. #134
    SitePoint Evangelist
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Schulz View Post
    And for that, there are only four you need to worry about (I'm only going
    to list the dominant browser in each category, if applicable): Trident (IE),
    Gecko (Firefox), Presto (Opera), KHTML/WebKit (Konqueror, Safari).

    Do that, and you'll be fine in 99% of cases.


    List of web browsers
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_web_browsers

  10. #135
    SitePoint Enthusiast Chousho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charmedlover View Post
    Considering most people who have praised Firefox for being open source have failed to also provide their operating system, it causes me to raise the question if they even understand open source or if they are just spouting useless reitteration someone else told them...
    I'm not seeing a connection here. People not mentioning their OS has what to do with whether a browser is open source, exactly?

    I'm also a bit lost on this thread. It asks "why don't you use Opera", but quite a few posts seemingly are "why you should use Opera" in a counter-argumentative form.

  11. #136
    SitePoint Evangelist
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chousho View Post
    I'm also a bit lost on this thread. It asks "why don't you use Opera", but quite a few posts seemingly are "why you should use Opera" in a counter-argumentative form.
    In the first post by the poster it clearly states:

    "If you use Opera please feel free to explain
    briefly the main reason that you use Opera."

  12. #137
    In memoriam gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Schulz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnOmAlY_ View Post
    And if you look closely, 99% of them revolve around the four rendering engines I mentioned previously.

  13. #138
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    I wanted to install Opera a few months ago, but couldn't quickly find a 64bit .deb package, and I haven't bothered looking since then.
    It also doesn't have Firebug
    "Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what
    it might appear to others that what you were or might
    have been was not otherwise than what you had been
    would have appeared to them to be otherwise."

  14. #139
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    Well I had problems with Opera and complex sites like istockphoto.com...

    It doesn't work well with to much javascripts...
    www.mangiaphoto.com - daily photo news
    www.serveradminblog.com - Open source tips and tricks

  15. #140
    In memoriam gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Schulz's Avatar
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    Probably because the scripts were written poorly (big shock!) in the first place.

  16. #141
    The I's for intelligent silver trophy iTechno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnOmAlY_ View Post
    In the first post by the poster it clearly states:

    "If you use Opera please feel free to explain
    briefly the main reason that you use Opera."
    I think he's referring to CharmedLover and Dan countering every statement.

  17. #142
    SitePoint Evangelist -T-'s Avatar
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    Personally I find opera to be to "dumbified", it's just hard finding the settings I want to change, or they don't exist
    chrome is a wrapper that combines a browser with spyware

  18. #143
    SitePoint Addict dAEk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProBlogging View Post
    I merely dislike the user interface.
    Don't judge by appearance - pretty much every aspect of the user interface can be modified to fit your preferences. If you don't like the default UI look, you can make it use the underlying look from the operating system, or you could add/remove buttons, create custom ones, etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by -T- View Post
    Personally I find opera to be to "dumbified", it's just hard finding the settings I want to change, or they don't exist
    How is it difficult? Go to Tools > Preferences > Advanced and you'll find most of the settings to modify. Granted, there is a lot that can be tweaked, and I can imagine being "scared off" by that, but don't panic; the controls *are* organized.
    Some of the settings can be reached by pressing F12 when on a page, it brings up the quick preferences menu.
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  19. #144
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Schulz View Post
    Oh God, somebody please shoot me.

    Opera is free. You don't have to pay for it. Just because it hasn't been released under an open source license that Stallman approves of doesn't mean it's not free. It's just a different kind of free. Like "free, as in beer."
    the original post asked why people don't use it. that is the main reason for me. i could list others, but freedom is very important to me.

    the funny thing is, had opera been open sourced back in the 90s, i think it would have beaten firefox to the punch and gained tons of momentum.

  20. #145
    In memoriam gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Schulz's Avatar
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    I doubt, it actually. Back in the 90s nobody gave a hairy rat's backside about Web standards, save for Opera, and they were pre-occupied trying to implement technologies and standards that had yet to mature. Even if they were to open-source the Elektra rendering engine (which was dropped with version 7 in favor of Presto), I doubt anyone would have done anything with it at the time since back then CSS was used exclusively for fonts and colors on Web pages - if that.

  21. #146
    ********* wombat firepages's Avatar
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    had opera been open sourced back in the 90s, i think it would have beaten firefox to the punch and gained tons of momentum
    no, had it been Advert free in the 90's it may well have been a bigger player than it is today.

  22. #147
    In memoriam gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Schulz's Avatar
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    That I will agree with. Though of course, Opera should have done something about the way it rendered Web pages back during the Dark Ages of Web Design anyway to keep it from being an also-ran browser.

  23. #148
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    Opera is the best browser on Planet Earth...

    Why I don't use IE :
    1. The "latest" version of IE is crap in front of Opera or FF.
    2. Security is horrible.
    3. Like all windows products, it is a traget for spyware,adware,crapware,god-knows-what ware...
    4. Tabs introduced in IE7.. Not 1% as good as Opera.
    5. IE's looks suck.
    6. User-UnFriendly.
    7. I dont like their icon.
    8. If there were even 1% of Opera's features and user friendliness in IE, I would have considered it a good browser.

    Why I don't use FF 99.9999% of the times:
    1. Security issues are not fixed promptly.
    2. I don't need extensions for surfing.
    3. The "NEW" feature named "Tabbed Browsing" in FF is younger and uglier than "Opera's tabbed browsing's" grandson.
    4. Most of the features in Opera come as "extensions" in FF.
    5. FF thinks that the my computer is in fact stolen from NASA and it need not need worry about mmemory or processor power. [ Runs (or should I say crawls) way slower than Opera on my AMD Athlon 64 X2 4600+ , 2 x 1GB DDRII memory at 667 Mhz ] .
    Whereas Opera thinks that my computer was probably manufactured in a coal mine in Africa and cant even spell Windose.. oh... Windows.
    6. Is fugly.. I dont like those chunky, squary looks..

    Why surfing the net without Opera is like being in the midst of hundred naked girls but not being able to even touch one :
    1. Opera is beautiful.... Literally..
    2. It is secure... Like a sexy girl free of aids/std..
    3. In my four years of using Opera, not even a single complaint.
    4. most user friendly browser..... Every minute detail is looked after.
    5. King of Tabs.
    6. Doesn't shove **** down your throat like FF. No ****ing Google
    Spyware-free ( or Spyware Free ) toolbar.
    7. What I feel about Opera :
    Everyone wants a wife who is :
    Caring
    Loving
    Kind
    Beautiful
    Sexy
    Loyal
    Space giving
    etc...
    I dont think that one can be found with all the above qualities. But, thank God, in case of browsers Opera is JUST THE PERFECT THING.

    Many more features of Opera are there but its too late now ( 12 am ) so i gotta go sleep.
    You guys may have guessed that I am die hard Opera fan... coz this is my first post and I created the SP account just for this post..

  24. #149
    Working on it... Contrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwistR View Post
    5. FF thinks that the my computer is in fact stolen from NASA and it need not need worry about mmemory or processor power. [ Runs (or should I say crawls) way slower than Opera on my AMD Athlon 64 X2 4600+ , 2 x 1GB DDRII memory at 667 Mhz ] .
    Whereas Opera thinks that my computer was probably manufactured in a coal mine in Africa and cant even spell Windose.. oh... Windows.
    I definitely agree with this!!!
    Whenever I run a large script with Firefox, it crashes.
    Opera is extremely powerful and stable!
    And so I got lost in code...completely asphyxiated by it...

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  25. #150
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Before I give the reasons I don't use Opera, I'll provide a "timeline" of the browsers I have used as my primary browser since the beginning:

    1) Mosaic
    2) Netscape 1.2 thru 4.23
    3) Opera 6 thru 7.54
    4) Firebird (which became Firefox)
    5) Firefox

    I originally switched to Opera from Netscape 4.23 because v4.23 was obsolete, Netscape 6 sucked big time and there was no way in [that really hot place] I was going to switch to MSIE4.

    I switched from Opera with v7.54 because of the Opera Google RAD issue (the older members here will remember those debates).

    The reasons I haven't and don't plan to shift back to Opera as my primary browser even though the Google RAD issue has been resolved is (in descending order):

    1) Firefox does what I need and I hate switching browsers.

    2) As others have pointed out Opera has problems with more sites than Firefox especially where Ajax and/or JavaScript is concerned. Yes this is caused by faulting programming on the website in question, but I don't care. I simply want to surf the web with as few problems as possible while avoiding the risks associated with MSIE.

    3) I really depend upon Firefox's development tools like DOM Inspector, Webdeveloper extension, etc.

    4) Opera's market share is too small. On the sites I run Opera accounts for less than 0.6% of my traffic; while Firefox accounts for 15% of traffic (excluding myself). It is a lot easier to convince webmaster's of broken sites to fix their site to work correctly on a browser that has 15% of the market than a site that only has 0.6% of the market at best. I also don't see Opera as a viable browser for the long term on the desktop/laptop computer. Opera depends too heavily upon the hand held market to remain a viable company. Since I already stated I don't like changing browsers, changing to Opera only opens me up to having to change again later when the browser I'm currently using works just fine.

    Now with all of that said, Opera is a fine browser and I do use it as my secondary testing browser. While I hat this from a browsing standpoint, what I like about Opera from a testing standpoint, is the fact that it is so draconian about web standards. I find this really helps me find coding errors that I might not otherwise pick up (even with using W3C's HTML & CSS validators). I know that if my code properly validates to W3C HTML4.01 Strict and CSS2 specifications and renders identically in Firefox and Opera it is a pretty safe bet that the code is clean. Any rendering issues I find in MSIE are written off as MSIE bugs and special MSIE only CSS tweaks are used to resolve the isolated issues. This testing practice helps ensure usability of my sites in browsers I can not test on (e.g. Safari).

    In regards to the Firefox stability issues people like to drum up, for years I have routinely run Firefox for days and weeks on end without shutting it down and rarely experience browser crashes. In fact Firefox crashes no more for me than any other piece of software--Opera included. My standard running practice for Firefox includes keeping between 15 and 25 tabs open at any given time (currently I have 23 tabs open to 23 different websites). The only thing I routinely disable, which has increased the stability and reliability of Firefox is Flash objects via the use of the Flashblock extension. I frequently find poorly designed Flash objects can suck down too many resources and cause issues.

    Opera's chief problem is that their marketing sucks. Had they been faster to adapt their business plan, and ditched toolbar ads sooner they probably would have been able to gain a better foothold in the browser market before Firefox stole all their thunder. As things stand now, I just don't see Opera gaining widespread acceptance or increasing their overall market share without some really amazing marketing. Opera will also have to give up some of its obsessively narrow view of web standards and become a little more forgiving of poorly designed sites.
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    Based onFirefox's default theme but uses much less window space


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