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  1. #1
    Umm. PHP Guru....Naaaah jaswinder_rana's Avatar
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    Framework(s) - A Real Quick Question

    Hi:

    I know it's been discussed before but I want to get opinions if there are any new frameworks which you came across.

    I am starting a new application which'll be sort of combination of many applications with image hosting and video hosting and other things.

    I will be using
    PHP 5/MySQL 5/Apace / *NIX
    OR
    PHP 5/MSSQL 2005/IIS / Windows


    I will try to use a lot of Front end functionality with javascript (in user end ofcourse but not for pages available for search engines).

    I will also need all the familiar classes like:
    1) Validation
    2) Authentication (if any with permissions)
    3) Error Handling
    4) DB Abstraction
    5) Template system.
    6) News System
    7) INPUT validation (like vBulletin does)
    8) Form generation (mainly for Polls etc.)



    I have heard about:
    1) PEAR
    2) PRADO
    3) WACT


    My Questions are:
    1) Are there any more?
    2) Can ONE of the frameworks need MOST or ALL of my needs?
    3) Do these frameworks are similar or really for different needs?
    4) Do you have any more suggestions?

    Please suggest
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  2. #2
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy Cups's Avatar
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    This feature comparison chart might help, although its at least a year old now.

  3. #3
    Umm. PHP Guru....Naaaah jaswinder_rana's Avatar
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    Thanks.

    as per that chart i found only ZooP Framework came close as it has templates, DB Objects and AJAX and auth etc.

    But, I haven't heard about it before. I looked at the tutorials and found it complicated.

    So, my next question is:
    1) Should I use one with MOST functionality?
    OR
    2) Should I combine one or more frameworks?
    OR
    3) should I use one with MOST AND implement other features on my own?

    I know it will depend on my requirements, but what would YOU DO if you were me?
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  4. #4
    eschew sesquipedalians silver trophy sweatje's Avatar
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    I would say the Zend framework and perhaps EZ Components should also be reviewed.
    Jason Sweat ZCE - jsweat_php@yahoo.com
    Book: PHP Patterns
    Good Stuff: SimpleTest PHPUnit FireFox ADOdb YUI
    Detestable (adjective): software that isn't testable.

  5. #5
    Umm. PHP Guru....Naaaah jaswinder_rana's Avatar
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    ZEND framework doesn't have AUTH and AJAX and Template parts

    and ez one doesn't have AUTH and AJAX part.

    Now, let's say i use ZEND, then is it possible to easily add
    - Smarty
    - AJAX framework (i was looking at http://www.prototypejs.org/)

    So, my next question (and I hopefully think last) is:

    How easy it is to add some other components in these frameworks? let's say as in general.
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  6. #6
    Umm. PHP Guru....Naaaah jaswinder_rana's Avatar
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    I was looking at both systems and the examples they had in their manuals.

    My first instinct was to leave and keep doing the simple stuff I have been doing.

    Should i invest my time to learn how to use one or should I just keep using my simple framework with classes and such?
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  7. #7
    SitePoint Addict Jasper Bekkers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaswinder_rana View Post
    ZEND framework doesn't have AUTH and AJAX and Template parts
    What do you think Zend_Auth and Zend_Acl do?
    Now, let's say i use ZEND, then is it possible to easily add
    - Smarty
    - AJAX framework (i was looking at http://www.prototypejs.org/)
    The Zend_View is designed to work nice with template engines and as such it is documented how the integration is done. The framework should work with prototype.js because ZF's MVC architecture and JSON support (the native transport protocol for prototype.js).

  8. #8
    Follow Me On Twitter: @djg gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Grossman's Avatar
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    Check out Symfony.

    1) Validation
    http://www.symfony-project.com/book/...7;20Validation

    2) Authentication (if any with permissions)
    http://www.symfony-project.com/book/...ion%20Security

    3) Error Handling
    http://www.symfony-project.com/book/...y%20Exceptions

    4) DB Abstraction
    http://www.symfony-project.com/book/...he-Model-Layer

    5) Template system.
    http://www.symfony-project.com/book/...the-View-Layer

    6) News System
    This doesn't sound like a framework job... that sounds like an app you'd build on top of one

    7) INPUT validation (like vBulletin does)
    http://www.symfony-project.com/book/...y%20Validators

    8) Form generation (mainly for Polls etc.)
    http://www.symfony-project.com/book/...Form%20Helpers
    http://www.symfony-project.com/book/trunk/14-Generators

  9. #9
    Umm. PHP Guru....Naaaah jaswinder_rana's Avatar
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    thanks. that's a new one. will look into that one too. but it seems it has all that i need.

    But, i do need to check Zend again. i mised a few parts.

    I also need to check which one is easy to implement. as the examples in Zend make it look tough to use (it may not be but to first time user it does, at least to me)

    any more suggestions? if not about framework then what should i mainly look for while searching for a framework??
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  10. #10
    Follow Me On Twitter: @djg gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Grossman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaswinder_rana View Post
    any more suggestions? if not about framework then what should i mainly look for while searching for a framework??
    If you're not in a rush, you might want to give the ones that look promising a quick try. Read a bit of the documentation for each, build a little program. Either try to implement some tiny piece of your program to see what it'll take, or build something generic like a blog or CMS.

    It wasn't until I actually tried to start with CodeIgniter and CakePHP that I realized I don't like coding in their frameworks at all... and that the level of help I could find wasn't high enough for me to be confident writing something bigger (not enough documentation, not a big enough user community, although both may have grown in the past year and a half).

    Zend looked kinda young back then but is looking nicer now. I didn't really want to be using something that was evolving so quickly at the same time. Symfony had just stabilized on its 1.0 version and the book was about to come out on Amazon. I've got a copy on my dining room table now

  11. #11
    Umm. PHP Guru....Naaaah jaswinder_rana's Avatar
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    Yeah, I was looking at it and for now I decided to look into Zend and then Symfony to see which one I like.

    But, for whatever reason I am leaning towards Zend.


    But, again the problem is what you mentioned. It's new and I am not sure whether or not to use it.

    Symfony is fine, but as I was looking at it's syntax it looked weird.

    But, I understand once I get familiar with it, i'll be fine. So, I am trying these 2

    Zend
    Symfony.

    If any concerns which I should know about please let me know.
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  12. #12
    SitePoint Zealot imagize's Avatar
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    I wouldn't write Zend off because of its young age, it's not far off its first full blown release. There are also a lot of quality developers contributing to the project and I believe Zend is actually financially supporting the lead contributors. So the project is not just going to flop anytime soon.

    Also the mailing list and discussion over @ nabble is very friendly and helpful.

  13. #13
    Umm. PHP Guru....Naaaah jaswinder_rana's Avatar
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    Thanks.

    i wasn't going to. I am going to look into
    Zend and Symfony.

    I am leaning towards Zend. Symfony is kind of confusing (at least to me) what with all those .yaml files
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  14. #14
    SitePoint Addict n0other's Avatar
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    The confusion will pass, then it's all joy. Go for symfony, you can't be wrong choosing it.

  15. #15
    SitePoint Addict Jasper Bekkers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by n0other View Post
    The confusion will pass, then it's all joy. Go for symfony, you can't be wrong choosing it.
    Both the frameworks satisfy the requirements so the choice will probably be (somewhat) personal preference and other secondary requirements such as the community, the manual, stability et cetera.

  16. #16
    Umm. PHP Guru....Naaaah jaswinder_rana's Avatar
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    Ok, few last questions.

    Which one has larger support?
    Which one will improve if there are any bugs?
    Which one will have frequent updates?

    I know they have sites and forums, but i want to know if you have experienced it yourselves.
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  17. #17
    Follow Me On Twitter: @djg gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Grossman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaswinder_rana View Post
    Ok, few last questions.

    Which one has larger support?
    Which one will improve if there are any bugs?
    Which one will have frequent updates?

    I know they have sites and forums, but i want to know if you have experienced it yourselves.
    Symfony has:
    • Half a dozen Google Groups that see dozens of messages a day
    • Over 800 closed requests and bugs up to the last release milestone
    • About 30 edits to the current code base per day trac timeline
    • A published book
    • An online book
    • API docs
    • Active wiki
    • Forums with tens of thousands of posts
    • Separate full documentation for each release, so you can always refer to the documentation for the framework release you used even if new versions have come out since you started your project
    • Upgrade utilities to update your projects to a new version of the framework when one comes out
    • 20 million users of Yahoo! Bookmarks proving that Symfony works and works right

  18. #18
    Umm. PHP Guru....Naaaah jaswinder_rana's Avatar
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    WOW.

    Will give it a try.
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  19. #19
    SitePoint Zealot mixDev's Avatar
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    Yup. As Dan Grossman said, give Symfony a try. I have used Symfony and Codeigniter before (will be using again) and see that Yahoo has used Symfony for a front-end live application.

    But if you want high performance, low footprint app, go for CI.
    Last edited by mixDev; May 27, 2007 at 14:13. Reason: CI has a proper spelling
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  20. #20
    Umm. PHP Guru....Naaaah jaswinder_rana's Avatar
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    when you say "low footprint" what does it mean?

    and how does it has high performance?
    and in what sense?
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  21. #21
    Follow Me On Twitter: @djg gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Grossman's Avatar
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    The run-time overhead of the entire Symfony framework is usually under 20 milliseconds. Here's a look, and this was in debug mode, which means the entire configuration was reprocessed and cache skipped:

    http://www.dangrossman.info/photos/screenshots/perf.png

    A single database query will cost more than Symfony adds to most programs.

  22. #22
    Umm. PHP Guru....Naaaah jaswinder_rana's Avatar
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    So, is it because Symfony has more to offer with all the different settings?

    or, that's the way Symfony is done?
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  23. #23
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    I found it personally pretty hard to setup Symfony since PEAR / CLI never worked right on XAMPP.. I liked CakePHP because it was pretty easy to setup and use
    Go visit my site :-D you know you want to ;-)
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  24. #24
    SitePoint Zealot mixDev's Avatar
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    Low footprint = low memory usage.

    CI doesnt need heavy libs like PEAR. So, if your app is simple, go for CI.

    We use CI for a frontend(no DB) to an SOA app. It works perfect, fast.
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  25. #25
    Follow Me On Twitter: @djg gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Grossman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mixDev View Post
    CI doesnt need heavy libs like PEAR.
    When you freeze a project to copy to production, Symfony copies the necessary library files into the project tree, and has no external dependencies. Nothing that isn't needed by the request made is loaded. If you don't make any database calls, the database layer is never loaded.


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