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  1. #26
    Word Painter silver trophy Shyflower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Grossman View Post
    Out of 32 million unique visits analyzed across all sites tracked by W3Counter, only 0.2% (75,000) of visitors used Internet Explorer 5.5.

    0.1% (32,000) used Internet Explorer 5.0.

    I think these numbers have fallen far low enough to stop hacking designs for them. Here's the top 10 browsers currently:

    http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php
    Pretty much the same as my site stats in Google Analytics.
    Linda Jenkinson
    "Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean." ~Unknown

  2. #27
    The Mind's I ® silver trophy Dark Tranquility's Avatar
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    I dropped supporting IE5 since a year or so! The % of my sites visitors using that browser helped me make the move. However during the last months I had to make some clients sites work correctly in IE5 as ~5-15% of their target audiences were using IE5! I've even had to fix one site after finishing it just because the number of its visitors using IE5.5 and IE5.0 increased after its revamping and re-launch!

    So I'd say it is safe to drop IE5 unless you have some special cases! After all it depends on the audience targeted, the country, the town, the nature of the site etc... Every site is a different story and you should study each case separately

  3. #28
    SitePoint Wizard drhowarddrfine's Avatar
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    As a sidepoint, my employer has recently switched from a tables design to CSS, and clearly the site looks ok in IE, however view it in FF or Opera and the design elements go awol.
    Then they designed it using old, buggy non-standard IE. Never use IE as your initial test browser. Always, always use a modern browser like Firefox. Then you can adjust for IEs quirks and bugs.

  4. #29
    SitePoint Author silver trophybronze trophy

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    Quote Originally Posted by armchaircritic View Post
    As a sidepoint, my employer has recently switched from a tables design to CSS, and clearly the site looks ok in IE, however view it in FF or Opera and the design elements go awol. This is an international organisation!
    That's usually what happens when you test in IE while developing the site, instead of testing in a more standards-compliant browser. I always test in Opera, verify in Firefox and then tweak for IE.

    Quote Originally Posted by armchaircritic View Post
    Tommy: Is the fact that your site doesn't display styles in IE something to do with the XML-HTML your site appears to be written in?
    No, IE doesn't claim to support application/xhtml+xml, so it receives plain old HTML. IE5/6 do display the styling, although there is some graceful degradation compared to CSS2-compliant browsers. IE7 doesn't apply any CSS, though.

    The main style sheet is @import'ed in such a way that IE browsers don't get it (because they don't support media types after the @import directive). That's by design, so that I could serve a completely separate style sheet (using conditional comments) for IE5/6 without having to undo a lot of stuff.

    IE7 has far better CSS2 support than its predecessors. The IE style sheet doesn't work with IE7, so it doesn't get it. Unfortunately, IE7 still doesn't support media types after @import, so it doesn't get the main style sheet either.

    I'm on Linux at home, so I can't test in IE7. At the office we haven't upgraded to IE7 because most of our users are on Windows 2000. It's possible that IE7 would work with the main style sheet that is used by Opera, Firefox, Safari, Konqueror, etc., but I haven't tried it. I know I should, but I'm planning a rewrite anyway.
    Birnam wood is come to Dunsinane

  5. #30
    whagwan? silver trophybronze trophy akritic's Avatar
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    Thanks for your reply Tommy. Up untill now I have only linked to my stylesheets, so the issues with IE is something to bear in mind if I choose to adopt @import (I've noticed sites doing this, but have not found the time to read up on the differences)

    Andy

  6. #31
    The Mind's I ® silver trophy Dark Tranquility's Avatar
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    You can proceed this way:
    make a screen css file call it for instance: screencss.css and put this in it:

    Code CSS:
    /* My CSS Styles*/
    @import url("structure.css");
    @import url("decoration.css");
    @import url("hacks.css");
    save it in you folder and then link to screencss.css in your index:
    Code CSS:
    <link href="screencss.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" />
    then you actual CSS code will be for instance in structure.css, decoration.css and hacks.css also seperating the CSS into different files according to the function is helpful for updates, tweaks etc... and for avoiding FOUC

  7. #32
    SitePoint Wizard cranial-bore's Avatar
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    What has an IE5 user ever done for you? Nothin'! That's what.
    Make no mistake, if you gave an IE5 user half a chance he'd beat you, rob you and sell your grandmother.

    Time to stop doing favours for them or they'll never learn.
    mikehealy.com.au
    diigital.com art, design . Latest WorkSaturday Morning

  8. #33
    whagwan? silver trophybronze trophy akritic's Avatar
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    Thanks DT, your example is very helpful. I understand most of what you said there, and have looked into splitting stylesheets into different sections.
    What is FOUC, exactly?
    Andy

  9. #34
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    Arrow Screw IE5

    I say scrap IE 5. I'm relatively new to the game, and I only design for IE 6+.

    I know you could argue that it is the job of the designer to serve his visitors and that we have an obligation to make out sites work under IE 5, but how long can designers get pushed about by Microsoft, who can't even get a web browser right? There is a limit to this.

    Luckily, this is changing with IE 7 and hopefully IE 8 will be even more on the ball. So yes, I do think it is time to scrap IE 5.

  10. #35
    whagwan? silver trophybronze trophy akritic's Avatar
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    I don't think there are many changes planned for IE8 sadly. If anything, it may come a little closer to the CSS2.1 spec. Also MS is developing a developer 'opt-in' for standards mode.

    Microsoft's solution would be to make developers shoulder the responsibility if their sites break when rendered by IE8. Right now, Wilson said, "we can't tell if [site] authors intended standards [mode] or if they expect [their site's] behavior not to change" when they choose IE's standards mode.
    -Chris Wilson, Microsoft's platform architect for Internet Explorer

  11. #36
    Floridiot joebert's Avatar
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    People don't update their browser because they want to, they update it because they have to.

  12. #37
    Sesame Street Iimitk's Avatar
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    I'm glad to hear most people are dropping off IE5.x.

    Such topic would have definitely benefited from a public poll, although one can easily conclude the result so far.
    Imagination is more important than knowledge. - Einstein

  13. #38
    The Mind's I ® silver trophy Dark Tranquility's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by armchaircritic View Post
    Thanks DT, your example is very helpful. I understand most of what you said there, and have looked into splitting stylesheets into different sections.
    What is FOUC, exactly?
    Andy
    Andy, FOUC = Flash Of Unstyled Content means that the CSS loads after the Mark up itself and the browser displays for few seconds unstyled content

  14. #39
    SitePoint Author silver trophybronze trophy

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    Quote Originally Posted by armchaircritic View Post
    Up untill now I have only linked to my stylesheets, so the issues with IE is something to bear in mind if I choose to adopt @import
    IE supports @import, but not if you add media types to it.
    Code CSS:
    @import url(/style.css);
    This works in iE.

    Code CSS:
    @import url(/style.css) screen,projection;
    This doesn't work, because IE will look for a file named "style.css) screen,projection" in your root directory.

    Quote Originally Posted by armchaircritic View Post
    What is FOUC, exactly?
    Flash of unstyled content. It's when the page is rendered as unstyled HTML for an instant before CSS is applied. This happens in IE if there is no linked style sheets (or scripts, IIRC).
    Birnam wood is come to Dunsinane

  15. #40
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    IE 5 is seriously outdated.

  16. #41
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy Stormrider's Avatar
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    We support IE5.5+

    To be honest, while I wouldn't support it on any sites I do personally, (only IE6+), it really isn't difficult to but a couple of box model hacks in so it shows ok in 5.5, if you want to make it that tiny bit more accessible.

  17. #42
    SitePoint Author silver trophybronze trophy
    wwb_99's Avatar
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    That @import with media types trick is nice--it really lets one quit worrying about IE5. Who's main problem is that it played kinda sorta like a modern browser and understood @import so it would pick up the current stylesheets.

    Our shop pushed IE5 on the "nice to support, but we are not going to cry if it does not work" list a year or so back.

  18. #43
    SitePoint Addict mmanders's Avatar
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    Angry

    In my opinion, the web is fundamentally about sharing of information. Every browser, no matter how old (i.e. Lynx) will support the basics. you can still put across your content, and a basic navigation structure with no CSS styling that will be supported by older browsers. This way, although your visual design may not be experienced by everyone, your content can be. Having now catered for everyone with regard to content; you should apply a progressive enhancement approach to your visual design so that each borwser up the grading scale gets some sort of visual design - with the most standards compliant getting the most feature rich design.

    There's my two cents!

  19. #44
    CSS & JS/DOM Adept bronze trophy
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    wwb_99, am I correct in assuming that you use a conditional comment so that IE6+ will get a stylesheet too?

    This should hide a stylesheet from IE/Win and IE5/Mac:
    Code:
    @import 'example.css' all;
    As to FOUC, these are two good articles about it:
    Flash of Unstyled Content (FOUC)
    The FOUC Problem
    We miss you, Dan Schulz.
    Learn CSS. | X/HTML Validator | CSS validator
    Dynamic Site Solutions
    Code for Firefox, Chrome, Safari, & Opera, then add fixes for IE, not vice versa.

  20. #45
    SitePoint Author silver trophybronze trophy

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    Quote Originally Posted by mmanders View Post
    In my opinion, the web is fundamentally about sharing of information. Every browser, no matter how old (i.e. Lynx) will support the basics. you can still put across your content, and a basic navigation structure with no CSS styling that will be supported by older browsers. This way, although your visual design may not be experienced by everyone, your content can be.
    That's more or less what I said in post #19.
    Birnam wood is come to Dunsinane

  21. #46
    SitePoint Zealot
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    I wouldn't hack for IE5 unless it's a major glitch that has a simple fix that can be located in an "IE5hack.css" in conditional comments. (does IE5 support conditional comments?... )

  22. #47
    CSS & JS/DOM Adept bronze trophy
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    Conditional comments are supported by IE5+/Win. IE5/Mac does not support them.
    We miss you, Dan Schulz.
    Learn CSS. | X/HTML Validator | CSS validator
    Dynamic Site Solutions
    Code for Firefox, Chrome, Safari, & Opera, then add fixes for IE, not vice versa.

  23. #48
    SitePoint Evangelist AlienDev's Avatar
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    I say yes, drop IE5. I never have (and never will) even try to support IE5. Its not worth the effort. People using old browsers should get up with the times, unless the site target audience is for older people. Then it might be an exception.
    Me on StackOverflow | Blog & personal website.

    I mostly use: PHP, Java, JavaScript, Android.

  24. #49
    SitePoint Addict mmanders's Avatar
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    @AutisticCuckoo: I thought I might reinforce your point :-)

  25. #50
    SitePoint Addict
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    I help run the research section of university website. I recently put analytics up and here are the results:

    76% of visitors use IE. Out of these:

    64% use IE 6.0
    35% use IE 7.0
    1% (actually less) use IE 5.x

    So I'd say no, its not worth the hassle
    Ryan Price
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