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  1. #51
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    Going back very far in this topic, I am only 16, a junior Web Designer if you will, but I already have advanced knowledge in FLASH 4, Photoshop 5.5 /PSP6, aswell as knowin' javascript and HTML to almost the max, in my opinion however, I do not consider my talents to be that great compared to someone like Thomas Bratta etc, however, since I first got the Internet I had a facination with creating web pages, so I have learned using a program called HTMLed32, esentially it is Notepad, but with quick speed up's such as keyboard shortcuts which you can define.

    I have also merged this with looking at the source code of people's sites, together I have been able to create dynamic interfaces, also with knowledge of color scheming etc.

    My problem is, my age. I'm too young to go into the field of work, and yet too advanced for many professional Web Designers, it's not often you meet someone who is this dedicated

    I also made one vital error in my major webpage which I have been working on for about 6 months now...I used frames, which has made me make an entire site, just for different resolutions

    If you want to visit my site, please do so at http://www.supersaiyans.org

    I just thought I would share my thoughts, and how I get irritated sometimes when "Newbies" take the easy road out and use FP2K (no offence intended to anyone who does). Just my opinion. Besides creating a page by hand is much more fun, and you also have much greater control.

    Does anyone have any thoughts on what I have said, and what I should do about my interest in Web Design at such an early age.

    Thanks, Neo.

  2. #52
    SitePoint Guru CJ's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>Originally posted by I am the one:
    I just thought I would share my thoughts, and how I get irritated sometimes when "Newbies" take the easy road out and use FP2K (no offence intended to anyone who does). Just my opinion. Besides creating a page by hand is much more fun, and you also have much greater control.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    Listen man, you have like a small website. But how would you think about creating a +100 page website with Notepad? May I also say I'm also only 16 and that I still have a life next to web design....

    Next thing is I know HTML, and I can make pages in Notepad. But I know it is economical not interesting to do it that way. I know Flash4 too. And I've worked with PS5, PSP and Image Composer and 3 times even with Fireworks. So I ought to know how those things work.

    Another thing is that taking the easy way is certainly not taking the FP2K way. It takes time to know how to make a cross browser compatible site. It takes time to know all features of it.

    FP2000 is a choice I made. I know it is the right one.

    You have probably NO expertise in what you should know if you want to get a job as webmaster somewhere. Because I know you HAVE to know or FP2000 or DreamWeaver or any other WYSIWYG editor.

    Also about the control... I have no idea what you're talking about.. Have YOU ever used a WYSIWYG editor? Or are you one of those who rather believe everything what is said by ppl?

    Let's talk again in a few years ok?

    Christophe

    ps: This is what I think.


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  3. #53
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>You have probably NO expertise in what you should know if you want to get a job as webmaster somewhere. Because I know you HAVE to know or FP2000 or DreamWeaver or any other WYSIWYG editor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Wrong. The only people who require it is small time companies who don't know a thing about coding and don't want to be dependent on you after the page is done.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>Another thing is that taking the easy way is certainly not taking the FP2K way. It takes time to know how to make a cross browser compatible site. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    So you admit its hard to make a cross browser compatible site in frontpage?

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>
    But how would you think about creating a +100 page website with Notepad?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I made a few near 500 page sites with notepad, well cutehtml really which is just a simple text editor, really easy when you use ssi.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>But anyway... It ought to be possible for MS and MacroMedia to add a feature in their program which updates the program everytime new technologies are there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    That'd be pretty hard to do I think, since who knows what a new technology will be like? It'd have to be a pretty general update feature and the Microsoft people would have to code alot of technical stuff on their side before you could get it. It wouldn't just be fill in the blank.

    Chris

  4. #54
    SitePoint Guru CJ's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>Originally posted by aspen:

    Wrong. The only people who require it is small time companies who don't know a thing about coding and don't want to be dependent on you after the page is done.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Sorry for you, but I saw it several times and mostly it were one of the biggest companies in Belgium.

    BTW: Making a crossbrowser compatible site is difficult with every editor.

    Christophe

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  5. #55
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">code/font><HR><pre>
    &lt;!--#include virtual="/directory/header.asp" --&gt;
    &lt;% header(1) %&gt;
    &lt;!--#include virtual="/directory/issue.asp" --&gt;
    &lt;!--#include virtual="/directory/footer.asp" --&gt;
    &lt;% footer(1) %&gt;
    [/code]

    Content pages basically look like:
    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">code/font><HR><pre>
    &lt;!--#include virtual="/directory/header.asp" --&gt;
    &lt;% header(2) %&gt;
    &lt;!--#include virtual="/directory/article.asp" --&gt;
    &lt;!--#include virtual="/directory/header.asp" --&gt;
    &lt;% footer(2) %&gt;
    [/code]

    I hope to grow this scheme to thousands of pages eventually. I also hope to move to a completely web-based data enty scheme so that the site can be updated anywhere from any browser.

    For this I am finishing up a text editor which has a similar interface to Homesite and I hope to make it available for download under GPL as soon as I can make it compatible with Netscape which probably won't be until after Netscape 6 is officially released. Right now the editor uses ASP and client-side vbScript but I am changing it to use client-side javascript even though it lowers the capabilities of the editor. You can see what B-Editor (for lack of a better name at this time) looks like in the browser window by going here.

    p.s. This will include a WYSIWYG mode once I figure out the drag and drop features. But since its browser based its feature set will automatically be updated everytime the browser is.

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    [This message has been edited by wluke (edited August 13, 2000).]

  6. #56
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>Sorry for you, but I saw it several times and mostly it were one of the biggest companies in Belgium.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Well its not like that on this side of the atlantic, most companies want you to know how to code.

    Chris

  7. #57
    SitePoint Guru CJ's Avatar
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    I never said I didn't know how to code. Shaila who started the topic told us (s)he DOES know HTML...

    Christophe

    ps: glasses aren't that expensive...

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  8. #58
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>I never said I didn't know how to code. Shaila who started the topic told us (s)he DOES know HTML...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yes, but the discussion turned into "people using frontpage who don't know how to code." You'll notice I always say people who are "Dependent" on frontpage. If you're like TWTCommish and learn how to code and then decide to use wysiwyg editor then go ahead, my problem is teaching people only wysiwyg and not how to code, or people learning only how to use wysiwyg editor and not code on their own. Its just like the calculator analogy used earlier in this thread. Learn how to do it by hand, then use a tool to speed things up. (unfortunately its not a perfect product and doesn't always "speed things up", but thats another discussion).

    Chris

  9. #59
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    Well, check all the WYSIWYG attitude..lol

    I will not agree or disagree with any of the views on this subject. What I'd like to state is we all work at are own pace and in our own style. The individuality of ALL the sites in existance, is what makes designing a pure pleasure for me.
    I use FP2k as an editor, but do the majority of my work in NotePad, as FP2k has a tendency to add it's own components, when it feels we need them.. :-)
    I started off using nothing but Fpage2k, then slowly as I understood more html, asp and javascript..with a little vbscript thrown in for good measure, I've been at it a year and have just as of May, published my first site, which is e-commerce related.
    I say..do what you feel, read a TON and continue to ask insightful questions, in this forum. :-}
    Best Regards, Deborah

  10. #60
    Follow Me On Twitter: @djg gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Grossman's Avatar
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    I've always written straight HTML with Notepad.

    I downloaded Dreamweaver because it's so talked about on the web. My number one problem with it is: I can't figure out how to use it! I went to try designing a simple page in it to get the hang of the program. I spent 5 straight minutes searching for a way to make a table cell with a black background!

    If I could figure out how to use WYSIWYG editors maybe I'd use one. But, hey, why? For the first time ever I designed a site in a graphics program (even though the site itself has only one graphic) because I had a picture of it in my head that I wanted to get down fast. I drew it out in Paint Shop Pro 5 since I'm most comfortable in that program for graphics, and went to work to turn it into a webpage.

    Line by line, TR by TR, I turned it into a 31k homepage (which I later reduced to around 20k - huge because of the large amounts of tables I had to write to get it to look the way I wanted, and the complex javascripts on the homepage). It took less than an hour to write out the design for WebDevPortal.com in Notepad exactly as it looked in PSP (and I mean exactly, since I drew the picture with 750-pixel lines and 150 pixel sections for example - kept the sizes simple, not random).

    What's the advantage to using a WYSIWYG editor again? I converted most of that 20+k page into separate SSI pages for the menus, ads, footer, etc so updating the entire site takes a few edits...

    Just a few thoughts after reading the above posts

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  11. #61
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    You want to know why you should use a WYSIWYG editor? That's a very easy question: If you've got a very complex table, with even more complex tables nested in the first table, than you'll be glad to use a WYSIWYG editor.

    Just for the records: I can produce a VERY complex table in DreamWeaver within five minutes. And to change the BG color of a cell: In Dreamweaver you've got a nice seperate menu that's called 'properties menu' in that menu you can change about everything of a cell, just put the cursor in the cell and pick a color (or fill it in by yourself).

    Ok, I admit, I DEPEND on DreamWeaver

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  12. #62
    SitePoint Enthusiast Edwin's Avatar
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    I'm going to take a swing at this from a completely different direction...

    If you want to give the impression of professionalism, it is not enough to master a certain toolset, and to have a passing familiarity with JavaScript, PHP, Perl or whatever acronym is the current flavour of the month.

    That kind of skill is fairly widely available, and you can learn *enough* to be able to produce professional-looking pages through practice, volunteer work, learning from other sites by looking at their code and so on.

    Now I'm probably heading into a storm of controversy by saying this, but here goes...

    The one skill that is *sorely missing* from many, many web designers' portfolios of skills is the ability to write clear, coherent, gramatically correct English sentences.

    It really shocks me when time and again I go to an attractive "About Us" type site put together by a web designer to find the site dripping with spelling mistakes, garbled grammar and incoherent rambling.

    Frankly, unless you are going to work STRICTLY on design and never touch a word of the content side of things, this is the skill so many people need to polish. HTML coders are a dime a dozen... HTML coders who can write ENGLISH and HTML seem to be much rarer!

    And if you're not confident in your English, that's nothing to be ashamed about, even for a second... but you sure should be ashamed of yourself if you don't get somebody else to proofread and rewrite your portfolio site, which is essentially your "sales tool" when presenting yourself to potential customers, so that the sentences flow, the grammar is untwisted and the spelling doesn't jar.

    The above, incidentally, was not aimed at any particular poster in this thread - I wanted simply to share my observations after having visited literally hundreds of "web design" sites!

    Edwin

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  13. #63
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>Originally posted by aspen:
    If you're like TWTCommish and learn how to code and then decide to use wysiwyg editor then go ahead, my problem is teaching people only wysiwyg and not how to code, or people learning only how to use wysiwyg editor and not code on their own.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I don't see anyone here personally who seems dependent...and yes I think we can all agree that a knowledge of HTML is a must.

    Surprisingly, you're a bit off; I used FrontPage before learning ALL of HTML...however my skills with it dramatically increased after learning HTML and ditching all the weird FP extensions and such.

    Just please stay away from the big, vague statements like "FP is for newbies" or "FP is only for...etc."...coding by hand is great if you have the time. I, personally, do not.




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  14. #64
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>Originally posted by freesources:

    You have probably NO expertise in what you should know if you want to get a job as webmaster somewhere. Because I know you HAVE to know or FP2000 or DreamWeaver or any other WYSIWYG editor.

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    ok, jumping in a bit late on this thread... I have been watching the job market for webdesigners for a long time, ever since I had my first 'real' webdesign job 3 years ago. I have noticed that generally companies that are looking for mid/entry level designers ask for WYSYWIG Editors. Reason why - site maintenace. If you are mid/entry level - chances are you will be stuck with updates. There are about 50% of those. But at the interview they don't care much about that, all they want is examples of your work and to make sure you know HTML. Now I am in the market for webdevelopers, I am searching for a possible replacement of my current job. I have not seen one company that asks for WYSYWIG skills from a webdeveloper. They concentrate on scripting languages and programming languages, databases, XML/XSL, etc.

    I hope you get the picture - in general, no matter what the posted job requirements state, people with strong HTML coding skills get more respect from the interviewers. And in this cruel word that means more money

    So use whatever tool you want, but keep your ears open to what others tell you (I'd ecpecially take wluke's advice, I dare to say the he's one of the most experienced people that visit this forum), and keep your eyes open to whats going on around you. Always remember that a humand mind is more powerful than a piece of software, and your hands are your best tool.

    ...

  15. #65
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    shaila,
    to answer your questions, I would recommend doing job searches on www.dice.com, http://washingtonpost.com/wl/home.shtml (a very good search) or some other job search engines. Start by searching for keyword HTML. See what you can find and send your resume to as many companies as possible. Make sure in your objective to state that you want to learn more, sometimes companies will train their employees

    HTH

  16. #66
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    I'd have to agree with just about everything everyone has said. When I first got into web design, no one I knew even took WYSIWYG editors seriously. I learned HTML and dug in.

    Now, I use FP2000 on a regular basis... but when something isn't working right, or even when it is, I still hit that handy "HTML" tab and make sure things are ok. You can't always trust it. It's a good idea to know the language behind the editor.

    Sincerely,
    Michael Glenn Wendt &lt; mwendt@iname.com &gt;

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  17. #67
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>Originally posted by aspen:
    An empty table maybe but what good is that, you still have to type in the info into the cells, whereas me I type at 110 wpm and fill in the table as I make it which negates any bonus you'd get from the wysiwyg editor to nil.

    Chris
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Chris is right. I use a variety of tools in design but none of them are WYSISYG. They have tag editors which can really speed up the process. I don't use FP simply because I don't believe the IDE really creates any advantage over other editors.

    As far as the age comment back in the list: My programming team consists of people age 22 to 54. The 54yr old is not only a better GUI designer, but is also very creative. Most of my re-writes and assists for him are technical in nature. The younger guys (I'm an oldie too at 43) do a great job but I find myself doing more corrections on their interfaces. That's a matter of experience and failing to realize that much of the world is really not computer literate.

    The key with websites is to make them usable, regardless of the age of the designer or the tools used to create them.

    Mike

  18. #68
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>Originally posted by freesources:

    You have probably NO expertise in what you should know if you want to get a job as webmaster somewhere. Because I know you HAVE to know or FP2000 or DreamWeaver or any other WYSIWYG editor.

    Christophe

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    For the record, most Webmaster jobs in the US are high-paying, highly technical positions that don't require FP or dreamweaver. Typically, the skills required are stated as HTML, Java, VB, C/C++, UNIX, NT, SSL, and DB administration of some flavor.
    You're typically not designing pages so much as you're designing the site and administering it. In a fulltime job environment, the difference in pay from a designer to a webmaster is usually more than $500 per week.

    Mike

  19. #69
    SitePoint Guru CJ's Avatar
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    With all the respect, but I was talking about jobs in Belgium... I think MSN.be is one of the only database driven sites here in Belgium... I can understand that you may think that.

    But Shaila also asked what she could do with the knowledge of a wysiwyg editor. She did not ask what you need to make lots of money. If you would have taken time to read her post you should've understood...

    Johanns Christophe

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  20. #70
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>Originally posted by EnetX:
    Chris is right. I use a variety of tools in design but none of them are WYSISYG. They have tag editors which can really speed up the process. I don't use FP simply because I don't believe the IDE really creates any advantage over other editors.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Whoa, hold on now.

    I don't care if aspen can type 110wpm...I can type around 130 if I get in the zone and a WYSIWYG editor still saves me a buttload of time.

    Some people have the time to code by hand, others do not. A developer with solid skills can make a killer site in FrontPage or Dreamweaver...coding by hand is good in some ways, but it's not the ONLY way. I'm annoyed out of my mind when someone acts as if their way is gospel, and all others have been led astray. You may have time for it, but I know I don't, and I know I can still make a cross-browser, cross-resolution, cross-platform, quick loading, professional looking site with an HTML editor; there's your bottom line.

    I respect coding by hand; I do it myself a little, and obviously it gives you total control, but some people don't need every comma and bracket tucked away nicely...so please, for the 10th time (almost literally): don't demean it just because you personally don't/won't/can't use it!

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    [This message has been edited by TWTCommish (edited August 18, 2000).]

  21. #71
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    WTG Chris!!

    I have no problems..getting jobs..making money and every month it's better..Financially rewarding and my clients are not concerned with *what* I use, as long as the sites I build are Consumer Friendly..Easy to look at and never a problem with ordering/down time.

    It's true. Use what works for you and learn as you go along.

    I've seen many designers that can type 110wpm, but their creative skills, are *lacking*.
    Creative people with one finger typing...lol..you get what I'm saying..

    And just on an end note...
    How many of you folks remember the first site you ever built?
    Mine..had *lovely* dark wallpaper in assorted colors with bubbles on it and orange text. I won't EVEN get into the Bog down buttons I used.

    Best Regards, Deborah
    http://www.waterbedandfuton.com
    Current Project - http://www.covermyfuton.com

  22. #72
    :) delemtri's Avatar
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    I code by hand, always have and probably always will. Not that there's anything wrong with FP/DW or any of them, just that I've never liked using them. (Oh, and I can pass 200 WPM on a good day ).

    Personally though, from the standpoint of someone who has no expertise whatsoever in web design programs, I think you should definitely learn how to code the underlying HTML first (like someone's comment about the calculator).

    In reply to I am the one: If you're on SitePoint Forums, you're doing EXACTLY what you should be! Out of all of the design jobs I've gotten/tried to get (all in the past two or three weeks no less) all but two have been on SitePoint - and the other three were also on online forums (HostRocket, eDevBoards, and something on ezboard). Not only is this a good place to find work but you'll also be immersed in the subculture of web developers and hosts. And an addendum: I'm 14 myself, and of the four jobs I've actually done, three of my clients were 18 or younger and I don't know the fourth one's age. Don't let your age be a hindrance; as long as people judge you by your work and not by the day you were born, you'll be ok.

  23. #73
    SitePoint Enthusiast AgentX's Avatar
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    I think that the terms "Webmaster" and "Web Designer" have become confused/mixed together.

    In my opinion, a Webmaster generally has been in the field for at least a couple of years, and has gained useful skills such as administrating websites, programming (ie javascript, etc), and knows how to design the pages of a website. The webmaster is more technically minded than the web designer.

    The Web Designer on the other hand has a full grasp of Adobe Photoshop, and the designing program of their choice.

    I'm often amazed at job "requirements" these days. Just one person is expected to have knowledge of webpage design, graphic design, flash design, programming skills and technical experience. These are just some of the requirements companies expect.

    Is this realistic? There is so much to designing a website, often more than one person alone can handle. It's one thing to know how to design graphics and pages. How can one person effectively design a website, put it all together, program all the scripts by themselves in a timeframe that meets the expectations of an employer?

    There is room for specialization. If your serious about designing a professional looking website, you can't expect to hire just 1 person. Maybe if all your looking for is a dozen or so pages + graphics sure, but if you want an interactive site that relies on javascripts, asp, databases etc or a flash based website, is it realistic to expect all of these things from just 1 person?

    Get real people. Once again specialization is the key. If your interested in having a serious web presence, you need a team of people with different skills and experience. 1 person might be able to design a nice looking site, but there is so much more to it than that. Just my 2c...

    AgentX

  24. #74
    Xbox why have you forsaken me? moospot's Avatar
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    Originally posted by AgentX
    I'm often amazed at job "requirements" these days. Just one person is expected to have knowledge of webpage design, graphic design, flash design, programming skills and technical experience. These are just some of the requirements companies expect.

    Is this realistic? There is so much to designing a website, often more than one person alone can handle. It's one thing to know how to design graphics and pages. How can one person effectively design a website, put it all together, program all the scripts by themselves in a timeframe that meets the expectations of an employer?

    There is room for specialization. If your serious about designing a professional looking website, you can't expect to hire just 1 person. Maybe if all your looking for is a dozen or so pages + graphics sure, but if you want an interactive site that relies on javascripts, asp, databases etc or a flash based website, is it realistic to expect all of these things from just 1 person?
    I couldn't have said that better myself! It's like you have to focus on your job and then put in another few hours after work to learn something new. Has anyone seen these job postings? For example, they will post a job for a VB programmer who can do COM, ASP, IIS and SQL server, then expect them to know XML, HTML, javascript, Photoshop, Flash, 3d modeling, etc. and will only pay in the 30's maybe 40's. Ridiculous!
    Last edited by moospot; Jul 11, 2001 at 07:23.

  25. #75
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    The problem with the 'web designer' job description is that everyone has a different idea of what that means, exactly. Is an HTML expert with no Photoshop skills whatsoever a web designer? How about someone who's perfect at Flash and PHP, but only knows HTML superficially? And what with someone who's good at Photoshop, Flash and HTML but doesn't have any design/layout/typography skills?

    So, what do companies do? They put just about everything even remotely to do with websites in their requirements. Sure, there are a few people out there who are this kind of 'homo universalis', but it's certainly not the majority.

    The whole thing will probably even out over time, with more realistic requirements being made by companies. It is a general problem in the jobmarket nowadays, though, that companies seem to be looking for superpeople. You have to be dynamic, reliable, highly-skilled, young, experienced, eager to learn, creative, efficient, all at the same time. I guess it helps if you've got MPD
    katdesign says 'meow'


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