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  1. #26
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    Sketch (Layout), Photoshop/ImageReady (Design), Dreamweaver (Content/Code)....that's basically it....i'm a designer though, not a web developver

  2. #27
    . shoooo... silver trophy logic_earth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozone88 View Post
    Some one was saying in one of the other threads that Expression Web doesn't support PHP or asp?!
    No It doesn't support PHP and it doesn't support Classic ASP. But it does ASP.NET and if you ar using ASP you want to be using ASP.NET.
    Logic without the fatal effects.
    All code snippets are licensed under WTFPL.


  3. #28
    SitePoint Enthusiast michaelper22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by logic_earth View Post
    No It doesn't support PHP and it doesn't support Classic ASP. But it does ASP.NET and if you ar using ASP you want to be using ASP.NET.
    You could sort of compare classic ASP to PHP; it's more of a scripting engine than a framework that ASP.Net is.

    Off Topic:

    Please don't quote me on that since I am nowhere near a web developer, and couldn't build a useful and well-designed Web app in any language/environment for my life.
    Educated - New possibilities are on the horizon every day
    How to make the Ultimate WordPress Static Front Page

  4. #29
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    Generally I find it to be the same but also different when I build a website for first and foremost I will need to plan what I want from the visual interface and the backend code to the content and the optmization I want to be done on each page. I believe if you follow all of this through then you can have a good working website. Please note that this is all my opinion and I am not a certified designer or developer.

    Plan

    For a plan you should first decide:

    • What your website is going to be and what content it is going to hold.
    • What colours you want to be used on your website.
    • What font styles and types you want.
    • If you want a backend system.
    • What language you want the backend system to run off.
    • What standards you want your website to adhear to (HTML 4.01, XHTML 1.0)
    • How you will use SEO on your website to get more visitors and make it a success.


    After this you have your plan which you should make sure you remember the quote "Plans are not set in stone" as I have found this to be useful many times in my life. So we have a plan of what we want to do and then you could make a sketch or rough copy of what you want the visual implementation of you website to have.

    Visual Interface

    For this I usually decide on:

    • The structure of the layout
    • What image will the header contain if you want an image there
    • A rough copy of some logos which you may want to use.
    • The design and implementation of you nagivation system.
    • The structure of your contents while having a backend system in mind if you want one.
    • Where you will place affiliates or advertisements if you want them.
    • How the website will look against different resolutions. (Whether it will expand or stay static)


    Having done this then I usually start to actually implement it and you grab your graphics program, which I solely use Adobe Fireworks 8 but many people use Adobe Illustrator or Adobe Photoshop but thats your choice and you can use any. Then after you come up with a design which you like and you are ready to implement that into the website which you are building you start to code the actual site, but not any backend systems yet.

    Coding:

    Personally everyone has their own coding standards and ways of doing this so this is an opinionated answer, but I would use Adobe Dreamweaver 8's code view for it highlights the syntax and indents when you need easily to make your code more accessible and usable, which helps you sorting out any bugs, errors or corrections if you sort through organised code instead of messy syntax.

    First I would:

    • Name all of the classes or ID's if you are using DIV's or Table's because I always name both.
    • Implement them for then you just have to style them and position them
    • Insert all of your HTML including a Doctype, any META's you want and an external or internal stylesheet, I go for external


    Then I would start using CSS and style the website, so it would help having a good grasp on this code but you can also learn through touch and error but I personally wouldn't suggest doing this for a big website.

    After styling your website to make sure it appears how you want it to appear on all different browsers and Operating Systems as you need to have good accesibility and usability then you can create the backend system if you want. Now this isn't make best area so I can only give you a basic idea.

    Backend System

    Most people would use a CMS or a Content Management System and they would code it in PHP or ASP and use mySQL databases but i'm sure there are other ways to do it. Again I would recommend planning what you want to do but I believe with these programming languages you need to have a fairly good grasp of what you can have the code do to create a good flawless system.

    Of course you can also create one from a tutorial but that will not be your own and will probably have many flaws and security holes in it, which is not good as if people can get into the CMS or other backend system them they can plant vicious things into your website. I would suggest with my extremely limited knowledge for this that you:

    • Plan and note what you want the system to do.
    • Design the database with what you want to do.
    • Design the User Interface and implement it.
    • Connect and do whatever is needed with the database.
    • Secure the system and check it.
    • Deploy the system and BETA it before deploying it full time.


    Many PHP or ASP coders would probably say something different from that but it would be better to listen to them on something like this as I am not good at coding PHP and ASP.

    Finally what every single site needs is content and you are the only one able to come up with the content as you have planned this site and know what it is all about, so you can use your backend system or your HTML pages to insert the content and then your website is underway after you've uploaded it by FTP or othermeans and I wish you good luck.

  5. #30
    www.logoraman.com electroskan.com's Avatar
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    Wow that is the best post so far M Davies
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  6. #31
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    First of all I'm 75% developer, 25% designer - which might explain why I do things the way I do... be interesting to know what others ratio themselves as?
    Anyway..I create my own template structure, works better than dreamweavers way. All my pages are asp pages. Not coded a basic html page for yonks.

    1.I do my design in fireworks, including a mock up page.
    2.I then code an html page normally from scratch BUT using a css file that has most of any features I'll need - like 3 column full width layout or fixed 780 width.
    3.Once I'm happy with the layout I take out the 4 main sections (banner, nav, content,footer) and put them into an ASP include file.
    4.Where I took them from I replace with call to a function to create them. eg <% createBanner %> or <% drawNav %>
    5.I'm now left with a shell that I can add content too really easily, but I can tweak the design whenever I need and only ever change 1 file - the included asp file. With dreamweaver templates you have to upload every page if you make a change.

    lastly, I have all my navigation in an xml file. That way I can add pages whenever I want. In fact, my xml nav file also handles page titles, meta keywords and descriptions and such. Why xml and not database?....because it's less strain on the server to process and I use access not sql server.

    great thread.

  7. #32
    SitePoint Member
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    oh...on SEO I validate the first 'test' page to iron out any problems then so the 'shell' is clean. After that I can totally concentrate on the MAIN thing which is content, content and more content.

    I only write in xhtml also.

  8. #33
    In memoriam gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Schulz's Avatar
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    So you force your Internet Explorer users to download your Web page rather than viewing it?

  9. #34
    SitePoint Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by logic_earth View Post
    if you ar using ASP you want to be using ASP.NET.
    I'm quite happy with classic. I like the idea of .net but not had a need for it (all my clients are small bizzies), and by the time I've learnt it.....there'll be something else to learn anyway and some point I'd like to make some money!!!

    One day I'll get into it I guess and I'll look back at this post and go....what an *** I was!

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by codythebest View Post
    I build my sites with notepad. I hand code in HTML, PHP, java, etc...
    I lost jobs against kiddies using dreamweaver or frontpage.
    But I got a new life by correcting other webmaster's mistakes. Mistakes that they couldn't understand because they didn't know the codes...
    So I build sites old fashion way...
    I wouldn't say that notepad is the right tool for the job. A nice text editor with code highlights etc is much easier on the eyes... I use gedit

  11. #36
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    Hi to all, I'm a graphic designer who's been flirting on the edge of web for over 11 years (I created the design for the programmers back then)...

    I have owned the Macromedia suite (now Adobe) since 1999 and am only just getting to grips with it now. I agree about coding and writing code, but I feel strongly that visual communication needs to work closely with the code and not be a slave to it - colours and fonts etc. I got very tired of being told I couldn't do something because of the restrictions...

    I work in Photoshop and design my site and then think about how I am going to construct it. Is this wrong? Don't get me wrong, I love the coding part (so far) but I fall into the DW camp. I'm trying to learn CSS now...

    Any words of wisdom are welcome...

    Roger

  12. #37
    SitePoint Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by dodger2402 View Post
    I feel strongly that visual communication needs to work closely with the code and not be a slave to it - colours and fonts etc. I got very tired of being told I couldn't do something because of the restrictions...
    Roger

    I think it has to be done design first and make the code fit. But then it comes down to whether you know how to make it work or are persistent enough to learn how to, and across all platforms. As for restrictions - I believe that is an excuse used by those that don't share the same vision or are just too lazy to be bothered....or in some cases I've seen they are afraid they will be shown up. As a developer I personally would love to work with a designer who pushed my skills all the time.

  13. #38
    In memoriam gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Schulz's Avatar
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    Design and code can co-exist peacefully, with some hand-holding and a strong crack of the whip from time to time. All it takes is time for both sides to realize what they can and cannot do together.

  14. #39
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    Hi WebbySteve, my sentiments exactly. The excuses I used to get just highlighted that persons interest - some would try, others wouldn't bother.

    I come from a graphic design background - I started my first job before PCs and Macs - I've been using Macs since 1990 and I love them. I enjoy nothing more than working in Photshop, Illustrator, Quark and Indesign. I see the web as the most amazing communication tool ever - where else could you get help from people on the other side of the world?

    An now it's maturing, responsible people who want to help others are creating the most fantastic environment... (time to get off the soap box).

    So, design first and then build after is my way...

    Roger

  15. #40
    SitePoint Zealot codythebest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hannson View Post
    I wouldn't say that notepad is the right tool for the job. A nice text editor with code highlights etc is much easier on the eyes... I use gedit
    I'll try it. I use notepad since ever and soo used to it that I don't even think about something else...Talk about old fashion...

  16. #41
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    I LOOVEE to use notepad well, notpad likes (I actually use gedit too, on ubuntu).

    But when I get lazy I like to use other programs like Kompozer, Screem or Quanta Plus (I love opensource software... but I must admit Dreamweaver is good too)

    PD: Davies, that is really good information I'll save it up and get used to do all those things to make my websites.

  17. #42
    SitePoint Zealot jvr's Avatar
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    Define your objectives or goals why do you need to build that site. Then, know yourself, know your strength and weaknesses. Research for your project. As a developer, you must be resourceful. After that, define your project. Is it web based or LAN Based? something like that. Then, design the layout of your project. After the designing plan, here's now the development. In this state, you will focused on the coding,designing, and the functionality of the project. After the development phase, testing is next. Test your project to see if there is anything wrong so you can debug it. Then after that, the actual implementation of the project.

  18. #43
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy Stormrider's Avatar
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    Starting with a photoshop template, I build 1 page using (X)HTML / CSS, and get it to look like the photoshop file (slicing up images, sorting out what is a background image and what isn't etc). I always use php, even for static sites, because you get the use of include() then, which is very useful. Once I have the template I chop it up into a main file then smaller included files like navigation, header etc, and use php include() to reconstruct the page. Once that is working, I can just copy the main page and replace with whatever content that page needs.

  19. #44
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    Concept:

    Site uses and functionality drawn out on paper. This will include admin system (if needed) data types, user types and appropriate site "areas".

    Design:

    I have recently started mocking up ideas using Xara Xtreme on Linux - it's great. This is the stage I am playing with "blocks" and colour combos, based on the clients requirements.

    Once I have a look I am happy with, I can go about creating graphic elements required, and creating an (x)html/CSS template that will form the basis for most/all of the site.

    Build:

    I will usually create the pages and or directory structure that I have envisaged, as well as put together the database (if there is one) next. Some elements are common across all/most sites, so a lot of time can be saved.

    Once the core CSS files are created (they can be "tweaked" later), and the main pages are in place, I can start working with functionality (forms etc). At this stage the actions, validation etc are all run through php and tested.

    Once everything is functional using php only, it's time to sprinkle with some JS yumminess (valdation, sometimes changing how things are displayed to JS active browsers etc).

    For all of this I use bluefish for code (xhtml/css/php/JS) and XAMPP for testing locally.

    Deploy:

    I often keep the site on my local machines these days. Then meet with the client with a laptop and demonstrate everything (bearing in mind that there may well have been a couple of interim meetings, and I may have uploaded parts to discuss things remotely). Once they're happy and signed off, I upload to a live server (using FireFTP nowadays, fwiw) and bob's yer uncle.

    If you REALLY want to do things the right way, I can't recommend Ian Lloyds book heartily enough
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  20. #45
    SitePoint Evangelist ikeo's Avatar
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    just my quick 2c ... hopefully it helps the op.
    messing with Ruby on rails changed the way i code PHP and build websites forever.

    After years of building websites, I have a directory structure and framework that I just copy over to any new project.

    It has a standard empty css file, a config file that I edit manually per site (handles everything from db access to path includes and example.com to www.example.com redirects0.

    I have my controllers folder where i write code for all my pages ... if the site doesn't have any complicated code then it still allows me to configure things like meta tags and descriptions from one location (don't do this ... I'm lazy its bad practice ... works because I'm the lone developer).

    There is also a sections folder that i use for includes (things like navigations, ads, footers etc). All of this is configured to work with the controller so that all I have to do is edit the files to make the site nice.

    I also have a backend admin section that I just drag and drop into a new project as well that gets me up and running quickly.

    Typically, I can have a simple site up and running (if code is provided) in 2 hours.Building an entire site from scratch with a cms takes about 6 - 10 hours.

    My advice is to keep learning from each site build and looking for ways to make the process more efficient ... I'm lazy so I don't like doing the same thing over and over.

  21. #46
    SitePoint Enthusiast forumGuru's Avatar
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    Be careful about thinking there's a right and a wrong way to build a site. You have to carry out some basic analysis on the site you're developing and determine what route is best for it. You should certainly explore frameworks like Joomla, DotNetNuke and PHPNuke if you are not a seasoned programmer (sometimes even if you are) and see if they will meet your requirements. If you need to custom build it from scratch then it all depends on your experience and comfort-level. ASP.net and Java are going to scale better than PHP but unless you have the experience you may not feel comfortable using them. Also, you may want to start off with a static site and then convert it off if your proof of concept takes off.

    Many considerations and lots of different answers/opinions, but based on your question I'd strongly suggest you start off by looking at DotNetNuke, Joomla and PHPNuke.
    NumaNuma.com - Show us your funny side.

  22. #47
    SitePoint Enthusiast Adelante's Avatar
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    This is an interesting thread, I started using 1st page 2000 and with the help of a few great Sitepoint books learned the basics of CSS and HTML.

    I now use Dreamweaver CS3, 99% of my coding is done by hand and all positioning is done with CSS. I find Dreamweaver to be a fantastic editor and love the template functionality. It's certainly improved my site development efficiency.

  23. #48
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    I use PHP and dreamweaver.
    I use notepad to write codes...

  24. #49
    SitePoint Wizard ryanhellyer's Avatar
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    I generally create the HTML, style it with CSS and then turn it into a WordPress template. Then I start adding the content to WordPress.

    I find it easier to get the code and styling sorted out, then use WordPress as a CMS to control the actual content on each pages. This does have it's shortcomings though as the limitations of the WordPress editor do cause problems, but I generally manage to work around these problems.

    I use Araneae for text editing, but I suspect there are better options out there. Araneae has quite a few annoying bugs, I'm just too lazy to find a better editor :P

  25. #50
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    well first of i take out pen and paper and make mindmaps!

    then outline main features that are needed


    then setup subversion repository and the directories on my development server on local network (matches the dedicated servers we own) then create database thru analysing the domain and ER modeling, 3nf normalization

    then create automated backup scripts for the project to upload to remote servers

    then its just a matter of applying my framework and reusing as much code as possible with continuous unit testing

    testing, testing and more testing,

    limit beta release working on feedback from users, fixing bugs


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