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  1. #26
    SitePoint Addict agentforte's Avatar
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    Arrow How I plan to go about it

    Well I decided it would be best to program it myself, and pay to have the site audited by a firm that specializes in security once it is complete.

    This will be less expensive than paying someone to program it, but still give me confidence in the website security.

    The project is a community site integrated with a marketing system.

    -Frank

  2. #27
    Who turned the lights out !! Mandes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agentforte View Post
    Well I decided it would be best to program it myself, and pay to have the site audited by a firm that specializes in security once it is complete.
    Mmmm, bad choice.

    Security should be integrated into the code, not added as an after thought. Going this route could mean you pay someone to rewrite large chunks of your code.
    A Little Knowledge Is A Very Dangerous Thing.......
    That Makes Me A Lethal Weapon !!!!!!!!

    Contract PHP Programming

  3. #28
    Sesame Street Iimitk's Avatar
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    Also these security audit companies might get you in a dilemma similar to one freelance developers got you in! I'm loudly echoing Mandes's above post.
    Imagination is more important than knowledge. - Einstein

  4. #29
    SitePoint Wizard stereofrog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agentforte View Post
    Well I decided it would be best to program it myself
    Surely. Programming websites is but a piece of cake, everyone can learn it in two weeks.

  5. #30
    Who turned the lights out !! Mandes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stereofrog View Post
    Surely. Programming websites is but a piece of cake, everyone can learn it in two weeks.
    Oh, stereofrog, come on, with security in 2 weeks...... 3 weeks at least
    A Little Knowledge Is A Very Dangerous Thing.......
    That Makes Me A Lethal Weapon !!!!!!!!

    Contract PHP Programming

  6. #31
    SitePoint Zealot
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    Sounds like you are having some trouble agentforte, if you would like some help along the way feel free to PM me and I can give you a way to reach me via messenger (AIM | Yahoo Messenger | MSN Messenger). I am not talking about charging you a sum of money to help you and running but rather as you need help with small things I can give you my input and advice. Good luck with your site.
    Kayzio - We don't hesitate, we accelerate.

  7. #32
    SitePoint Enthusiast owentech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allstar View Post

    Also, I am one that don't like to use the class structures and sticks with simple functions to do what I want.

    From my experience in the past with class vs functions. I did a bulk pagerank checking software along with downloading a list of recently expired domains it inquired to the registrars and the functions version was entirely easier for me to understand then the class version of it.
    Aah! Glad to see someone else thinks like me. I always prefer the simpler approach. Sometimes I think tech guys use more advanced(?) technology for technology's sake, when a simpler approach would do just fine.
    But maybe I am lazy...
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  8. #33
    SitePoint Wizard wheeler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agentforte View Post
    I decided to learn programming after a number of developers, ones I paid to do work for me, left me out to dry. Most of them just took too long and fed me bad excuses. The one that actually did work, but left part way through, taking on other projects rather than completing a site he committed to (J@*k A**).

    (FYI, I got most of the money back after demanding refunds)

    I thought hiring someone would be faster, but it is over 2 years later and my website is still not done.

    Anyway, after about a month of learning html and css, and another intensive month and a half (12 to 14 hrs a day) of reading and trying out "Build your own database driven website" and "The PHP Anthology" (Volume I and II), I am ready to do it myself. I don't think I ever learned so much, so fast.

    Now, here is my dilemma:

    I don't want to start from scratch, since there is a lot of functional code(which would probably take me one or two weeks to do).
    I would like to have it done in an object oriented approach since I have plans to add a lot of functionality to the site with new features every month or two.

    His code is just a list of functions. Do you think it would be worth dividing them into classes and modifying the code as needed?

    He also used a bit of shorthand php... could anyone confirm:
    is <= $something > just shorthand for <?php echo $something; ?>?

    Thanks!
    year and half for a 4 grand site? this company must've been some of the slowest developers known to man... maybe you've used up all your bad luck, next time you'll have some luck!

    I just want to echo some others concerns that learning php is not exactly easy - maybe you can get the concepts in a short time, but nothing short of hundreds of hours of trial and error will truly advance your skill level. You'd have to weight up whether you have a good 3 months full-time that you can dedicate to this.

    I don't really like the idea of "rent a coder" sites due to bad experiences - its probably safer to look locally. I just discovered there is a PHP Group in my area (see meetup.com)... maybe you could track down a good developer by joining your local group.
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  9. #34
    SitePoint Wizard samsm's Avatar
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    Software estimation is notoriously poor. This isn't just a web design problem, and it isn't just an independent developer problem. (see: Vista, Windows)

    In fact, it isn't just a development problem. Graduate students were asked how long it would take them to complete their thesis if everything went perfectly. They'd say 7 weeks or something. Then they were asked how long it would take if everything went wrong, worst case scenario. 16 weeks. Here's the significant part: When asked how long they thought the thesis would actually take, students would say 8-9 weeks, in other words, very close to the perfect scenario. (the numbers are from memory and probably inaccurate, but you get the gist)

    People make choices based around an unrealistically sunny version of their future. This is why we have things like credit card debt: "oh, future me will have a better job and be better at saving than me and will pay off the debt easily". Yeah, right. The only demographic that, as a group, isn't vulnerable to this particular breed poor judgment is the clinically depressed. Their estimations tend to be (dreary? unreasonably pessimistic? no...) accurate.

    Anyway, point is, when you get an estimation you can't expect it to be accurate. That would buck not only 50 years of software development history but also human nature.

    I'm a fan of incremental development that yields a usable product as it goes. If you ask a developer to build a login system and they don't have it done in a week or so, that's disappointing. But think about how much time you saved! If you had asked them to make the entire site, it would have taken months for you to figure out that the job wasn't getting done!
    Using your unpaid time to add free content to SitePoint Pty Ltd's portfolio?

  10. #35
    SitePoint Addict agentforte's Avatar
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    Angry The worst part

    Quote Originally Posted by samsm View Post
    Software estimation is notoriously poor. This isn't just a web design problem, and it isn't just an independent developer problem. (see: Vista, Windows)

    Anyway, point is, when you get an estimation you can't expect it to be accurate. That would buck not only 50 years of software development history but also human nature.

    I'm a fan of incremental development that yields a usable product as it goes. If you ask a developer to build a login system and they don't have it done in a week or so, that's disappointing. But think about how much time you saved! If you had asked them to make the entire site, it would have taken months for you to figure out that the job wasn't getting done!
    Let me give some background first:

    1) I completely designed the front end of the site and provided a detailed description of how the pages should work. Also, I did not just make up impossible things. All features were things I have seen that were done before.

    2) We made a milestones agreement. When they did not hit targets, since they did have some stuff done I went into further detail and modified the agreement

    3) I went through each small component of the website with the developer asking how long they would take for each. (should have done this in the beginning, I thought I gave enough detail though. BUT it turns out that it was not the amount of detail that was the problem)

    4) they showed me just enough that I thought things were getting done (just because I can log in, it doesn't mean everything is working or its secure... I did not think about that until recently)

    So when you said:
    "Anyway, point is, when you get an estimation you can't expect it to be accurate. That would buck not only 50 years of software development history but also human nature."

    I have to disagree. People running a business should have a good idea of how long they will take to do a project... especially when they went through the details of the website.

    I was just unlucky to get a web development company that was dishonest, saying that they could do a project when really, they could not.
    Not only were they dishonest, but they went out of their way to keep me from leaving by doing just enough to convince me it would be done soon.. the bare minimum. (by the way, after looking at the code they left me with, they were FAR from complete).

    This was the worst part was not that they could not complete it.
    The worst part was that they actively wasted my time.


    I hope this was an exception, and there aren't other developers doing this with the hope that they can make money without doing the work in a reasonable amount of time.

  11. #36
    SitePoint Wizard samsm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agentforte View Post
    I have to disagree. People running a business should have a good idea of how long they will take to do a project... especially when they went through the details of the website.

    I was just unlucky to get a web development company that was dishonest, saying that they could do a project when really, they could not. ...
    Ha! I'm sorry, I did make it sound like I was blaming you for what happened. Not my intention.

    I'm more trying to say that for better or worse this is a somewhat common problem and one that you have to battle aggressively or it is extremely likely to happen.

    Rapid releases instead of milestones was what I was trying to suggest. Get a developer who can create a working site, ready for business on the net (secure and all), release it, and add all the features you want as you go. Not a silver bullet, but an option to consider.
    Using your unpaid time to add free content to SitePoint Pty Ltd's portfolio?

  12. #37
    SitePoint Zealot allstar's Avatar
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    What were you having them do for you? What was the job? Which business were they?

    Personally, I am a freelancer. I take small jobs, cause I know I can't do a huge job in good time. If I had a crew I could depend on then I could possibly take a big job. I do like that 11k company does. I break it down. Then think it over. How long each part will take. Write down a schedule. Which days I am going to complete each task. If I run into a problem I inform the person that hired me and try to explain what the problem is and how much it will set the finished project back. I do the same if I complete something faster then expected. Also, I am not ashamed to say I have turned down large projects and high payouts, because I knew I could not complete the job or they gave such a broad description of what they wanted I did not know what was expected to be done. Those types of jobs are the types that they change their mind about something over and over again.

    For instance I just got asked to do a coupons site for another person. They were showing me different sites left and right of the wide concept of the site. They were offering upwards of $2k to do the site. I agreed at first, because I kind of got the idea of what they wanted. Then I asked for more details. Do you want this. Do you want that. You can't do this and it will not be able to do that unless you do this first. Basically, they did not give me the input I asked for. They just kept saying I want a coupons site that people can get points when they complete an offer and after a certain amount of points they get a prize. (sounded to me like one of those free ipod sites). So, I asked them how do they want to track when they bought what is on the coupon. Do you want to have a store too to sell what is on the coupon or are you going to have it affiliate based? They said "I just want a coupon site.. yada yada". Then I went to explain what is needed for both in house store vs affiliate payouts. Then they just repeated about it being a coupon site and showing me yet another site. I was like ok enough is enough. I can't do this for you.

    To top it off. I got to talking to them about a different project I want to start and they basically stole the idea and went to another person to have them do my idea. I was all pist off "&#37;^#@"... "Word of advice, Never tell your ideas unless you want them to get ripped off." I usually follow that rule, I just let it slip this one time, cause I was hoping they would fund the project, but instead the stole the idea. ahhh. I know I should have known better.

    Anyhow, just running off at the mouth about myself and what I do when i get a job.

    Quote Originally Posted by wheeler
    I just discovered there is a PHP Group in my area (see meetup.com)
    Thanks for the advice. It would be nice to get some local influences in my scripting. I checked my town must be lame, they don't have any computer scripts clubs.


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