SitePoint Sponsor

User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 37
  1. #1
    SitePoint Addict agentforte's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Toronto, ON, Canada
    Posts
    213
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Unhappy My Problems with developers

    I decided to learn programming after a number of developers, ones I paid to do work for me, left me out to dry. Most of them just took too long and fed me bad excuses. The one that actually did work, but left part way through, taking on other projects rather than completing a site he committed to (J@*k A**).

    (FYI, I got most of the money back after demanding refunds)

    I thought hiring someone would be faster, but it is over 2 years later and my website is still not done.

    Anyway, after about a month of learning html and css, and another intensive month and a half (12 to 14 hrs a day) of reading and trying out "Build your own database driven website" and "The PHP Anthology" (Volume I and II), I am ready to do it myself. I don't think I ever learned so much, so fast.

    Now, here is my dilemma:

    I don't want to start from scratch, since there is a lot of functional code(which would probably take me one or two weeks to do).
    I would like to have it done in an object oriented approach since I have plans to add a lot of functionality to the site with new features every month or two.

    His code is just a list of functions. Do you think it would be worth dividing them into classes and modifying the code as needed?

    He also used a bit of shorthand php... could anyone confirm:
    is <= $something > just shorthand for <?php echo $something; ?>?

    Thanks!

  2. #2
    Follow Me On Twitter: @djg gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Grossman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Philadephia, PA
    Posts
    20,580
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    <?= $something; ?> is the same as <?php echo $something; ?>, yes.

    If you think the object oriented approach is to just group functions into classes for no other reason than to have classes, you don't understand the paradigm, so don't bother with the fruitless extra work.

    Sorry to hear about the bad experiences you've had. One issue with freelance developers these days may be the fact that we're in such demand that most of the professionals have taken the lucrative job offers that are so abundant right now.

  3. #3
    . shoooo... silver trophy logic_earth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    9,013
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I had to leave a project half way though just recently, it wasn't because I had another project lined up and taking on more then I could chew. But I am a full-time student and I had to make a choice when my school work increased.

    When I took the job my school work was pretty steady for the past quarters so wasn't expecting the increase in turn wasn't prepared.

    Also I didn't charge for the work I did do, I probably could have but I would not feel right about that.
    Logic without the fatal effects.
    All code snippets are licensed under WTFPL.


  4. #4
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy dc dalton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Right behind you, watching, always watching.
    Posts
    5,431
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Grossman View Post
    <?= $something; ?> is the same as <?php echo $something; ?>, yes.
    I'm sorry but NO THEY ARE NOT! Yes it is shorthand but it is WRONG

    Short tags (IE: <?= ) are the WRONG way to approach PHP, they are a bad habit and 100&#37; against proper PHP development ideas. As far as I'm concerned the PHP developers should stop them from working!

    Sorry Dan but telling this person they are the same is the 'easy way out'! Short tags are WRONG and should NOT be used!

    (sorry for yelling but this one really gets my goat ... it's my Java background applied to PHP)

  5. #5
    Follow Me On Twitter: @djg gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Grossman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Philadephia, PA
    Posts
    20,580
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by dc dalton View Post
    Sorry Dan but telling this person they are the same is the 'easy way out'! Short tags are WRONG and should NOT be used!
    So you'd suggest we just not answer him when he asks what the code the developer already wrote for him does?

  6. #6
    Follow Me On Twitter: @djg gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Grossman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Philadephia, PA
    Posts
    20,580
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by logic_earth View Post
    I had to leave a project half way though just recently, it wasn't because I had another project lined up and taking on more then I could chew. But I am a full-time student and I had to make a choice when my school work increased.
    Just be careful not to anger someone who'd actually take you to court for breaching a contract for work.

  7. #7
    . shoooo... silver trophy logic_earth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    9,013
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Grossman View Post
    Just be careful not to anger someone who'd actually take you to court for breaching a contract for work.
    Yeah, thats why I talked to the client about the situation with school and we both agreed that I should put school first. Course I don't expect all clients to be as understanding.
    Logic without the fatal effects.
    All code snippets are licensed under WTFPL.


  8. #8
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Denver, Phang-Nga, Thailand
    Posts
    4,379
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by agentforte View Post
    I decided to learn programming after a number of developers, ones I paid to do work for me, left me out to dry. Most of them just took too long and fed me bad excuses. The one that actually did work, but left part way through, taking on other projects rather than completing a site he committed to (J@*k A**).

    (FYI, I got most of the money back after demanding refunds)

    I thought hiring someone would be faster, but it is over 2 years later and my website is still not done.

    Anyway, after about a month of learning html and css, and another intensive month and a half (12 to 14 hrs a day) of reading and trying out "Build your own database driven website" and "The PHP Anthology" (Volume I and II), I am ready to do it myself. I don't think I ever learned so much, so fast.

    Now, here is my dilemma:

    I don't want to start from scratch, since there is a lot of functional code(which would probably take me one or two weeks to do).
    I would like to have it done in an object oriented approach since I have plans to add a lot of functionality to the site with new features every month or two.

    His code is just a list of functions. Do you think it would be worth dividing them into classes and modifying the code as needed?

    He also used a bit of shorthand php... could anyone confirm:
    is <= $something > just shorthand for <?php echo $something; ?>?

    Thanks!
    Outsourcing is a skill, too. Maybe you could have just gotten better at that
    The fewer our wants, the nearer we resemble the gods. Socrates

    SAGEWING LLC - QUALITY WEB AND MOBILE APPS. PREMIUM OUTSOURCING SERVICES.
    Twitter | LinkedIn | Facebook | Google+

  9. #9
    SitePoint Wizard samsm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Atlanta, GA, USA
    Posts
    5,011
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by dc dalton View Post
    Short tags (IE: <?= ) are the WRONG way to approach PHP, they are a bad habit and 100% against proper PHP development ideas.
    I need some education on this claim. Is there a good thread or something I could read on this topic?
    Using your unpaid time to add free content to SitePoint Pty Ltd's portfolio?

  10. #10
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy Kailash Badu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    2,560
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    There is nothing inherently wrong with shorthand tags. except:
    1.shorthand tag might have been disabled in certain PHP setups thus leaving your application less portable.(though enabling them back is not very hard)
    2.It can come in conflict with XML, if your are embedding php in xml or xhtml pages.

    Apart from this, shorthand tag is just as normal as its full counterpart.

  11. #11
    SitePoint Evangelist catweasel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Goldfields, VIC, Australia
    Posts
    518
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Kailash Badu View Post
    There is nothing inherently wrong with shorthand tags. except:
    1.shorthand tag might have been disabled in certain PHP setups thus leaving your application less portable.(though enabling them back is not very hard)
    2.It can come in conflict with XML, if your are embedding php in xml or xhtml pages.

    Apart from this, shorthand tag is just as normal as its full counterpart.
    I'd agree with DC Dalton on this one..although I think his response is a bit excited. Shorthand tags will be disbaled by default in PHP 6 so it's best to avoid them in production code.. they're handy when testing output in development stages though or for doing quick examples on forums.

  12. #12
    Follow Me On Twitter: @djg gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Grossman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Philadephia, PA
    Posts
    20,580
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    They're pretty heavily used in templates.

  13. #13
    SitePoint Evangelist catweasel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Goldfields, VIC, Australia
    Posts
    518
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Grossman View Post
    They're pretty heavily used in templates.
    That's a worry

  14. #14
    SitePoint Wizard samsm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Atlanta, GA, USA
    Posts
    5,011
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by catweasel View Post
    I'd agree with DC Dalton on this one..although I think his response is a bit excited. Shorthand tags will be disabled by default in PHP 6 so it's best to avoid them in production code.. they're handy when testing output in development stages though or for doing quick examples on forums.
    That's a practicality-based object ... which I get.

    100% against proper PHP development ideas? That I don't get.
    Using your unpaid time to add free content to SitePoint Pty Ltd's portfolio?

  15. #15
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy Kailash Badu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    2,560
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'd agree with DC Dalton on this one..although I think his response is a bit excited. Shorthand tags will be disbaled by default in PHP 6 so it's best to avoid them in production code.. they're handy when testing output in development stages though or for doing quick examples on forums
    .

    There are lots of features in PHP 4/5 that won't be supported in PHP 6. That doesn't stop me from using those features in my current apps. Though shorthand tags are convenient in templating, I avoid them not because they would stop working in PHP 6. I avoid them only for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post. If I have complete control over the production server, if I am not going to redistribute the code and if my page doesn't use XML, I have no problem using shorthand tags. Off course, that is my preference and if someone finds them way too abhorable, he might as well not use them. But I hardly see a reason to overreact (especially in the same scale as one should do with registered_globals, allow_url_fopen, open_basedir, or even magic quotes)

  16. #16
    SitePoint Zealot
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    137
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Look, let's not get into a debate over whether short_tags are good or not. For compatibility, they aren't the best option, but they do work, so lets leave it at that.

    With regard to hiring PHP freelancers, the main problem is the barrier to entry. Just about anybody can learn basic PHP and rattle off some dodgy technical story to make it look like they know what they're doing. They then take your money and disappear, or give you dodgy code that doesn't work like it should (or use short tags).

    Some of the bigger sites are more reliable, especially elance, for finding good developers who won't take your money and run. If you have bad experiences with a freelancer there, the sites are designed not to let people get away with it and to inform future employers of the freelancer's history, to the extent that developers for hire make sure they get everything right the first time.

  17. #17
    SitePoint Zealot allstar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    in my box.
    Posts
    125
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I am starting to see this more and more. How much time did you invest in the hiring process? Do you do research on them? Do you have unrealistic time frames of completing the work for the money ordered? I often run into posts asking for coders that pay a little for a lot of work. They often have the titles of "Easy 5 minute job" and then in the post they basically ask for a full blow CMS to be wrote in a weeks time frame. I kind of smirk and pass over it. To find some "job blow" took the job for $30 and then in a week to hear the person that did the hiring complain about how the job did not get done.

    I am super glad you are learning php, html, css, and javascript. It could take years though to master it fully. As for using prewrote source code. Make sure you get permission from the original coder to use it or you could face a copyright lawsuit. Unless you stated that it was a work for hire position and all code will remain copyright to yourself.

    As for the shorthand vs non short hand debate. You can yell and scream all you want, but unless they want to follow standards it is not going to do any good. I am one that is guilty of using <?= in my code all the time. It just makes for easier reading code to myself. Also, I am one that don't like to use the class structures and sticks with simple functions to do what I want.

    From my experience in the past with class vs functions. I did a bulk pagerank checking software along with downloading a list of recently expired domains it inquired to the registrars and the functions version was entirely easier for me to understand then the class version of it.

    As for doing it yourself vs hiring someone to do it for you. I would suggest you think of "time is money" could you be making more money when someone else is coding for you and your out selling or if you are doinig the coding and trying to sell multi-tasking.

    Cheers on your choice to do it yourself.

  18. #18
    SitePoint Addict agentforte's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Toronto, ON, Canada
    Posts
    213
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    shorthand

    Quote Originally Posted by dc dalton View Post
    I'm sorry but NO THEY ARE NOT! Yes it is shorthand but it is WRONG

    Short tags (IE: <?= ) are the WRONG way to approach PHP, they are a bad habit and 100% against proper PHP development ideas. As far as I'm concerned the PHP developers should stop them from working!

    Sorry Dan but telling this person they are the same is the 'easy way out'! Short tags are WRONG and should NOT be used!

    (sorry for yelling but this one really gets my goat ... it's my Java background applied to PHP)
    I know that shorthand is not the proper way, I asked because I want to know if I can just replace it, or if there is some other meaning behind it.

    Thanks for the input though.

  19. #19
    Sesame Street Iimitk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    662
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    No offense intended here, but how could you claim you want to code with OO while asking so basic questions like about short tags? I understand your frustration about freelancers, but if you want to do it yourself, you should do it the right way, or you would end in the same boat as those you ran away off them: writing improper & uncompleted projects! Take the necessary time to learn in a proper way.

    As about your original project, unless it's very unique & narrow in purpose, I highly suggest that you first consider any of the available scripts, whether open source or commercial, that serve your project's exact purpose. Then you would practice your knowledge by modifying that software by adding more functionality or rewriting some code to best fit your needs.
    Imagination is more important than knowledge. - Einstein

  20. #20
    SitePoint Addict agentforte's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Toronto, ON, Canada
    Posts
    213
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Thumbs up Reasons and some tips on good business

    Quote Originally Posted by allstar View Post
    I am starting to see this more and more. How much time did you invest in the hiring process? Do you do research on them? Do you have unrealistic time frames of completing the work for the money ordered? ...
    In the beginning I did not do too much research, and I got burned. (wasted about a month and over $100)

    The next one I hired was an incorporated company.. I though they would be more reliable. They said they could do it for under $4000. It seemed like the right price range considering it was not such a simple website. Again I got burned, this time it cost me over a year and a half. Got my money back though. It left me really bitter. a year and a half!?! how?! am I stupid?

    Well, every time I went to hound them to give me a finished project, they showed me just enough that I thought it was going to be finished in the next week or two. Another part of the site was working, and they "have to work more on the back-end, then everything will work really soon".

    Finally I started learning programming, and looked for quotes and time frames elsewhere. Everyone said that it would be about 1 to 2 months of work.. NOT a year and a half. even with other projects in the works, it should not take more than three or four months.

    I got a quote and it was actually closer to an $11,000 website. They even gave me a VERY detailed breakdown of each part of the website, how many hours, the rate they charge, and it was easy to see that the previous programmers were way off the mark when giving me a quote.

    I think it was important for me to learn to program so I could prevent being ripped off or strung along wasting my time.

    Quote Originally Posted by allstar View Post
    As for doing it yourself vs hiring someone to do it for you. I would suggest you think of "time is money" could you be making more money when someone else is coding for you and your out selling or if you are doinig the coding and trying to sell multi-tasking.

    Cheers on your choice to do it yourself.
    I realized this, which is why I hired people in the first place. But with experience I realized I can get it done the way I want (to the very last detail) AND do it properly. Also, now that I learned how to do it, I realize I can finish it much faster than waiting for a company that has other projects in the works. Finally, I have less than $5000 budget, so until I start making money, getting someone to do the entire site will be difficult.

    If you want to be a good business person in programming, be blunt. Just tell people "Sorry I can't take on your project", or "I will not be free until XX date. if you want, come back to me then and I will see what I can do"
    Even better, have some people to outsource to. People you can trust. You can get a comission without doing any work. If you are unsure how reliable your outsourcing person/company is make sure to do some quality control .

    The one thing that REALLY bugged me was excuses. I don't care what your reasons are for not finishing on time. Just tell me "WHEN WILL YOU BE FINISHED BY?" or "CAN YOU FINISH THIS WORK BY THIS DATE?" if they can't give me an answer, I'm going elsewhere. I am glad that contracts forced them to give me all my money back. Too bad it's too expensive (time and layer fees) to try and get more compensation back for the wasted time.

    Thanks again, all this input is really helpful.

  21. #21
    SitePoint Addict agentforte's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Toronto, ON, Canada
    Posts
    213
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by simsim View Post
    No offense intended here, but how could you claim you want to code with OO while asking so basic questions like about short tags? I understand your frustration about freelancers, but if you want to do it yourself, you should do it the right way, or you would end in the same boat as those you ran away off them: writing improper & uncompleted projects! Take the necessary time to learn in a proper way.
    Please read the post above yours. I do want to do it the right way. and I think your suggestion to use code out there and modify it for my specific needs is right on the mark. I am trying to use code that was written for MY site and modify it for my site. It was not done completely improperly. I just want to organize it and get rid of the shorthand PHP.

  22. #22
    Sesame Street Iimitk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    662
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Actually I was referring specifically to open source projects that might be similar to yours. These are software that are publicly available and usually served by a whole community of contributors, so one cannot be easily ripped off if he/she picked the the right project.
    Imagination is more important than knowledge. - Einstein

  23. #23
    Resident Code Monkey Chris Corbyn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    713
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'm sorry to hear you've had bad experiences. Learning to program is definitely a good things for 2 reasons:

    a) You might just decide to do it yourself
    b) If you do ever pay someone, you can make better judgement on when you're being fobbed/ripped off.

    I had to leave a project halfway through once (I'm not a freelancer by the way, I was doing a job on-the-side). I had submitted 3 modules out of 8 agreed, and it was previously agreed I'd be paid per-module - which I was. However, when I told the guy I couldn't complete the project due to work commitments he demanded the money back for the work I'd already done (which he had up and running). Needless to say I argued with him for a while about what was previously agreed. He eventually told me he'd gone to court and paid the legal fees to begin court proceedings to get his money back. I have a feeling he wasn't telling the truth because his "fees" did not amount to what I have paid to take people through small claims (unrelated to development) in the past. I read my NDA and my contract for the work and it didn't actually state that I was being paid in milestones, it simply said I would complete the work as agreed and would be paid for it. Grrr!!

    I gave him his money back and basically wasted 2 months of my own time. I'm reluctant to take on contract work now. It's annoying because (see signature) I put my heart and sole into my programming for the very fact I like people to appreciate my work.

    This all happened over a year ago. I'm sure I'm not the only developer who's been burned for not being able to complete a project

    EDIT | I should mention, that speaking as a developer it's always good to make sure you're in contact with your developers every day they are working so you can see what they're up to. This benefits the developer too since they can build an application exactly the way you need it.

  24. #24
    Who turned the lights out !! Mandes's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    S.W. France
    Posts
    2,496
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Obviously, on behalf of all us honest hardworking programmers, I'm sorry youve had nothing but bad experiences in your quest for completion of your project.

    However, my concern for you would be that as your just starting out and attempting to do a script(s) that others have quoted you will take this amount of time and these considerable costs, you wont have the experience 'perhaps' to write a secure solution to such a complicated project.

    I think that learning to program is a wise move for you, dont get me wrong, I wish you luck. My sugestion would be to perhaps work with an experienced programmer who can watch your back as you go.
    A Little Knowledge Is A Very Dangerous Thing.......
    That Makes Me A Lethal Weapon !!!!!!!!

    Contract PHP Programming

  25. #25
    SitePoint Evangelist catweasel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Goldfields, VIC, Australia
    Posts
    518
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by agentforte View Post
    In the beginning I did not do too much research, and I got burned. (wasted about a month and over $100)
    ...
    They said they could do it for under $4000.
    ...
    I got a quote and it was actually closer to an $11,000 website.
    This is typical of the web development industry.. quotes vary wildly.

    At the lower end of the scale you usually get some high school kid drammatically underquoting due to inexperience .. at the high end you have the big web design firms with high overheads quoting the big bucks.. in the middle you've got the freelancers and contractors. Generally if a web design firm lands a job they sub contract it out to the freelancers and contractors anyway... or they just limit the work they have to do by installing open source CMS's and E-commerce packages.

    Can I ask what the project is?


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •