Zend framework

[mwmitchell]

Hi,

I've been thinking about this for a while.... Basically, I've built my own framework and library. I really like it. Works well and I understand it completely. It seems to be pretty flexible too when changes need to be made. I have the standard components of MVC, some view helpers built in among other things. The controller router is a little more simple, and more restricted/less flexible than the Zend router. Actually, my MVC "framework" is more simple and more restrictive in that it doesn't offer a bunch of ways to "make it work for you". It's what it is. And I actually like that. I'm not trying to do everything.

But... it's just me. I have little documentation and little tests. My fear is that someday someone might have to edit my code and have a hard time. I've tried to make it easy to understand of course. I'm always thinking of other people when I code, even thought it's rare that someone ever gets in and edits it.

I've been keeping an eye on the Zend framework. So far, I like what I see. There are some cool components coming and already there. I've thought about keeping my controller system and just using Zend components... but then.. what's the point? There are many developers working on the framework and it would only benefit me to use that as well.

I like my controller architecture (although similar to Zend). I use Doctrine for my models, love it.

Does it make any sense for me to switch over to the Zend framework? What is an obsessive, loving to re-invent the wheel geek like me to do?

Any advice?

[Dr Livingston]

If you are happy enough using your own framework, and you know that you'll continue to be happy developing with it in the future, then remain with it; Continue to use it and develop it further as needs and time permit

You'll enjoy your development a lot more in that sense; If you are feeling you are being left out, or more importantly, left of the shelf because you don't develop with the Zend Framework, then you need to factor in what advantages there are for you, to develop the Zend way.

As the Zend Framework becomes more and more established, it will be a considered advantage to have knowledge, skills and experience with the Zend Framework, but only to a particular sector of the market; How big that particular sector could (would) be is pure speculation, presently at the moment though.

But it's a governing factor that can't be ruled out; My particular feeling is that to follow the progress carefuly, keep upto date with the happenings, and take a creative look at the framework and documentation, but no more...

You can't have the time to develop to your own framework, and then have to develop using another one, at the same time; It's either one or the other, all or nothing. Another way to look at it is to keep an eye on the framework, and take inspiration from it.

Don't forget that you can adapt parts of the Zend Framework at any time, to work with your own framework, whilst at the same time you learn more about Zends Framework; If I have a piece of functionality missing from my framework, and I've not got the time to develop a solution right there and then, I'll adapt a part of someone else library.

I did that with JPGraph for example? I didn't need the entire library, but just a certain part of it to get me past an iteration... Still not got around to developing a solution for that particular problem but I will, eventually.

[ahundiak]

I have been using the Zend framework since the initial code previews. There are certainly advantages to using a reasonably well documented and supported framework.

If you are happy with PHPDoctrine then you certainly don't want to move to Zend_Db, at least not in the near future. The framework developers are starting to add some active record stuff but it's very immature.

I know you said you liked your controllers but the Zend's controllers and routers are stable and work quite well. If you do go with the framework then you probably will want to switch to them. I did not like the way the dispatcher built class names but found it trivial to extend the class and tweak it for my purposes.

The Zend TemplateView is kind of lame. But once I again I found it easy to extend it and make a nice TransformView (at least I think that's what I have) that also works well for me.

I'm not currently using them but once the initial release is made I plan on switching over the Authentication and Access Control classes as well.

[Falesh]

Just a thought about the creativity aspect, maybe you could get some of that by contributing to the Zend Framework rather then extending your own.

Personally I am going to switch over to using the Zend Framework, either when version beta 1 is released or before if something comes up. I feel that the advantages of using a framework that could well become a standard outway the extra fun and faster learning of PHP that I got from my own.

[avantis]

Falesh is right...

I got my own framework but now switched completely over Zend Framework due to some advantages:
- more secure components
- way larger team so easier to get more components, more secure, aso
- easier to work in a team (just needs the rest of team to work ZF documentation )
and so on...

[Dr Livingston]

On the flip side there are serious disadvantages as well; You become so consumed with the framework in question that you forget for the better part, how to solve particular problems yourself as the solution already exists for you.

You loose something in that sense, and to me that is something that is part of something bigger that you lose; I wouldn't without serious thought and soul searching, be prepared to do that.

Once you have been developing with that given framework, you'll find it a lot harder to develop outside of it's scope as well; You develop outside that given framework you lose your dependency on it...

The home comforts so to speak? Some of you are old enough to have left home; Do you remember those days, where you had to learn how to get by without Mum doing your washing for you? Cooking your meals?

That's the sort of dependency you'd have on the framework after a while developing with it. So, it's not always the best case to go down the route of developing with another framework other than your own. If you have your own framework, my advice would be to continue developing with it, and continue to develop it, as a framework.

On the other hand, if you don't have your own framework, you have much more to lose in the long term, but more to gain on the short term; With your own framework, it's the reverse.

[Falesh]

On the flip side there are serious disadvantages as well; You become so consumed with the framework in question that you forget for the better part, how to solve particular problems yourself as the solution already exists for you.

Isn't this also true of any framework including your own?

I can see your point for newcomers to PHP, if they walked right into coding with a pre built framework they would miss a lot. But I don't see a problem for those who have explored a good range of problems, including building their own framework. In fact it can also be benaficial to see how someone else soved a problem as it can give you a useful alternative perspective.

[webaddictz]

In fact it can also be benaficial to see how someone else soved a problem as it can give you a useful alternative perspective.

It can, and it will. Nevertheless; it's also possible to implement those alternative solutions within your own framework. When using a major framework, like Zend (or any other for that matter), you will lose your own point of view, unless this is absolutely the same as the framework's.

With your own framework, you'll have to do it yourself, but you can rest assured that everything works, just the way you want it.

Cheers,

Berry

[ahundiak]

It can, and it will. Nevertheless; it's also possible to implement those alternative solutions within your own framework. When using a major framework, like Zend (or any other for that matter), you will lose your own point of view, unless this is absolutely the same as the framework's.

With your own framework, you'll have to do it yourself, but you can rest assured that everything works, just the way you want it.

Cheers,

Berry

Disagree about losing your point of view. For example, by default the Zend framework assumes one controller per module which handles multiple actions. So you would have a PersonController with methods for handling searching, editing etc. I basically wanted one action per controller i.e. a PersonEditController, PersonListController etc. A slight tweak to the Zend Dispatcher class (through extension) and I was off and running.

[jjshell]

On the flip side there are serious disadvantages as well; You become so consumed with the framework in question that you forget for the better part, how to solve particular problems yourself as the solution already exists for you.

Being very pragmatic, I think the only point of problems in a dev environment is them to be solved. If the framework does it for me, then I'll go with it. I don't have the fancy of enjoying a "you learn from your problems and they help you discovering your rtue self" philosophy in my coding practice (not assuming that it's what you implied in your post).
You can also code for "artistic purpose", which is great. But unfortunately, I don't have the time, even though I wish I had. It's strictly professional. I need to code quick, I need to hire people that can perform this or that task, and a widely used framework is the best tool I can dream of.