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  1. #26
    SitePoint Wizard
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>Originally posted by wluke:
    I have designed several professional sites and I find Dreamweaver's disjointed interface a real pain. It detracts from developing sites having all those windows open from palettes, tools and libraries, then your actual document and the little tag dialog boxes. Its too bad because its cross-platform capabilities are good.

    Frontpage 2000's interface is much better with sliding toolbars and collapsible windows, there is a lot more space for working. I don't use Frontpage 2000, except for quick site management no and then, but do consider its interface more superior to Dreamweaver's.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I agree - all the windows are really cluttery. I only have the main properties pallete open. At my res (1280x1024) there is plenty of worm too

    I like FrontPage's (and all of Office's) way of toolbars, but I have grown used to Dreamweavers interface and like it better.

    FrontPage 2000 was designed to make it easy to make sites. Easy for newbies, especially. Dreamweaver 3 was designed with power in mind. It is very powerful. If you can't handle the power, there is nothing wrong with that.

    Dreamweaver shouldn't be your first editor unless you are experienced with site management. If you have used MS Office before, then FP is definately for you.

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  2. #27
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    Frontpage is only useful if you don't know anything about HTML (Newbies use it!) and still want to create a good looking site. When it is about making a professional site, you'll find DreamWeaver very handy. I use it myself and I'll probably never use anything else.

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  3. #28
    SitePoint Guru CJ's Avatar
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    It seems nobody can answer me on the question about the crap code... I'm still waiting...

    Of yes and ELLEDAN, I use FP2000 to make my sites and I really think they look professional. And I've used DreamWeaver and I did not have to go as much in the HTML code as in FP2000... And as newbie you can't make a professinal site nor with DW nor with FP nor with another program...

    Christophe

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  4. #29
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>Originally posted by Elledan:
    Frontpage is only useful if you don't know anything about HTML (Newbies use it!) and still want to create a good looking site. When it is about making a professional site, you'll find DreamWeaver very handy. I use it myself and I'll probably never use anything else.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    A terribly misguided generalization Elledan...

    FrontPage is useful for anyone who wants to create tables and layouts quickly and easily and likes the way Microsoft programs operate...I havn't used Dreamweaver but just by looking at screenshots I can tell I'd have to make more than a minimal effort to adapt to it...why should I have to? FrontPage's interface is incredibly simple for me and something I'm used to...it gets the job done (I see no evidence of bulky code whatsoever) and I create plenty of good looking sites.

    I designed my very first website (although it was a piece of crap) about 2 and a half years ago...I am not a newbie...

    I may hate AOLPress, but am sometime surprised to find that some significantly professional looking sites have been created in it...just because I don't personally like it or recommend it, it doesn't mean it cannot be used to create quality sites...

    I don't think I'm a newbie just because I use a program...I think I'm a person who benefits from saving time with a solution sitting right in front of me.

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    [This message has been edited by TWTCommish (edited July 03, 2000).]

  5. #30
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    I never said anything about FP2000 being bad or something. Everybody knows that only FP98 really sucks, it is just that it's easier to start in FP2000.
    For myself, I hate the way you've to work in those Microsoft products, like not having those handy seperate menu. And the size of the whole program... I think 167 MB is quite some diskspace. And that while Dreamweaver uses about 20 MB!
    Everybody who wants it may use FP2000, but I'll never be one of the users.

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  6. #31
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>Originally posted by TWTCommish:
    I designed my very first website (although it was a piece of crap) about 2 and a half years ago...I am not a newbie...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    &lt;brag&gt;5 years since my first design!&lt;/brag&gt;

    FrontPage is a good editor when you can tame it, but you shouldn't have to tame your editor! Dreamweaver does take time to adjust to, but it can do so much more than FP or any other editor can. You won't know what you are missing until you play with Dreamweaver hands-on. Why do you think so many people like Dreamweaver?

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    [This message has been edited by trcfreebies (edited July 03, 2000).]

  7. #32
    SitePoint Guru CJ's Avatar
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    Finally I get some support

    Yeah actually, wluke, the interface is the greatest thing about FrontPage 2000, and you can also make those bars floating like in DreamWeaver... Just to tell you...

    Oh yes, about the more powerfull: I haven't found one more powerful thing on DreamWeaver except that SSI, but I've found it better to just insert it in the code in FP.

    The fact that DW is only 17mb big, and FP 2000 is much bigger does make clear that FP 2000 has much more capebilities than just thos 20megs. And who buys nowerdays, especially those who build websites, small harddrives? I know that here now the standard is 15 to 20 gigs.

    Christophe

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  8. #33
    SitePoint Enthusiast MAC's Avatar
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    A very successful man was asked the secret of his success. He replied:
    "Success came from consistently making good decisions."
    "But how do you consistently make good decisions?"
    "Consistently making good decisions comes from experience."
    "And how did you gain experience?"
    "Experience comes from making bad decisions and learning from them."

    Everyone has to start somewhere. If I had to recommend a website creation tool to an utter web "newbie", I would recommend Front Page. Front Page's interface is so similar to MS Office's that any one who can format a document in Word can format a web page. ( Does this make them good designers? Maybe not, but a least they can make a web page. ) Then it is up to them to learn from their mistakes.

    I started with Front Page several years ago. My first design did *not* look good. But fortunately I could see that, and so I completely reworked it, and my first website looked resonably well. (Looked well on IE... I about fell over backwards when I saw my beautiful website on netscape!) The more I learned, the more Front Page was cramping me, by not allowing me to do the things I thing I wanted to do. I was spending more and more time in the HTML source screen fixing things, than I was in WYSIWYG mode.

    I got Dreamweaver because I had heard that it was the king of editors and used by the “pros”. Stepping up from Front Page to Dreamweaver was wonderful. I could put any thing I wanted into the my web pages, and Dreamweaver would not rewrite my code.

    Now as I begin to use PHP, Dreamweaver is begining to cramp me, I and I am using the Bare Bones Editor more and more. Dreamweaver is still invaluable for quickly coming up with multiple designs for a website. I tweak the designs and then fit them into templates.

    Of the entry level web software, Front Page manages to be the easiest to use, and it makes better looking, and quicker loading pages than lots of the other entry level software I have seen.

    However on the high end Dreamweaver seem to beat Front Page all to pieces as a WYSIWIG editor. (By the way, most of the compliants I have heard about Dreamweaver, don’t apply to the Mac version.)

    What you want really depends on your current ablity level.

    Just $0.02



  9. #34
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>Originally posted by MAC:
    By the way, most of the compliants I have heard about Dreamweaver, don’t apply to the Mac version.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Just curious, what might these complaints be?


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  10. #35
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>Originally posted by Elledan:
    I never said anything about FP2000 being bad or something. Everybody knows that only FP98 really sucks, it is just that it's easier to start in FP2000.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    "Frontpage is only useful if you don't know anything about HTML (Newbies use it!) and still want to create a good looking site."

    Saying that it's only useful for people who are not familiar with HTML is definetly saying it's bad. FP98 does not "really suck"...I'd be willing to bet you're under 18 by your choice of words alone.

    FrontPage creates tables and layouts quickly without junky code if you know how to stay away from it...

    Go ahead, explain how this means it's for newbies only...just because newbies CAN use it doesn't mean experienced designers CAN'T! I'm waiting for your answer...hope it comes soon.

    Maybe I'm being rough on you...but your comments were fairly rude and very blunt...I don't appreciate them at all. I plan to switch to DreamWeaver...but right now I have plenty of work and would rather not shell out $200 and any significant amount of time to learning a new program...




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  11. #36
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    Very Well put Mac.

    My first site was created in 1995, I used Notepad and an early version of Textpad to create it. There simply weren't any good HTML editors at the time. This is my ex-father-in-law's site for his tax business. Its still online today in the same form as way back then. It is written in HTML 2.0. The only thing cool about this site is an online Income Tax Estimator that is still accurate enough to be used today. You can see it at: http://www.networkone.net/~oth/info.html

    I have used Frontpage 97 with themes and all. In Fact you can see it at www.geocities.com/Heartland/Bluffs/3803/index.html or maybe its index.htm. Either way, look and see how I used Themes and a free web host. The page hasn't been updated in 3 years. Why??? I forgot the password and the account is under a email address I can't remember. This page was slightly automated in its creation. I used a program called GED2HTML for the creation of all the genealogical data. I hope to redo this site soon using an SQL database and ASP with the data being read either from Family Tree Maker or a GEDCOM file initially.

    Another page I learned on is "The Majormud Encyclopedia" located at www.bloodquest2.com/. This was the site I was working on when I first came to SitePoint (err Webmaster Resources). I learned from this site that its best to put content in a database. It has no automation whatsoever except that I installed NewsPro on the site. That site is currently close to 300 pages of hand-coded table agony. Check it out, its for an online game. Note though I don't maintain the site and haven't since 11/99 (by the looks of things no one else has either).

    I have used Dreamweaver, didn't like it and felt it held me back. Never felt any power what so ever. Won't use it again.

    I currently use Homesite, Textpad, Topstyle and Visual Interdev (which has the same problems as Frontpage if you use Themes or extensions) to create webpages but great programming and database capabilities. My current webpage that has been in design for god knows how long is a total of 8 pages right now. Into those 8 pages I will be able to pump thousands of resources and articles if I so choose. As the system runs it will cache the material to the hard drive and make more pages but that is another story.

    The fact is we all start somewhere and as long as the newcomer learns the languages driving things behind the scenes, their first application is irrelevant.

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    [This message has been edited by wluke (edited July 03, 2000).]

  12. #37
    SitePoint Guru CJ's Avatar
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    WHEN DO I GET AN ANSWER TO MY QUESTION:

    'What kind of crappy code does FP2000 add?'

    Still waiting....

    Christophe

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  13. #38
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    Let me get this right, FP2000 is the most wonderfull editor to work with, together with DreamWeaver only some people prefer to work with FP2000 than with DW. I, personally, hate the interface of Word if I should use it to design webpages because you'll have to travel great distances with mouse which really wears you out. And again: FP2000 IS NOT BAD AND NEITHER IS DW. For really crappy editors, you should take a look at download.cnet.com, there you can find some editors who're expensive and still doesn't really work (like Netobjects Fusion, this one is $299,- just like DW and gives a lot of trouble).
    And TWTCommish, I hope you're not serious about saying that anyone who uses such words is younger than 18, this would suggest that those persons are dumb too.

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  14. #39
    SitePoint Guru CJ's Avatar
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    Just to let you know:
    You can drag those menu's above on the page and you have than floating windows like in DW...

    Christophe

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  15. #40
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    Sorry, I didn't know that. Maybe I'm a little paranoid about FP2000 sometimes since I've seen some sites made by guys who were very proud to have used FrontPage, and those site didn't even deserve to be called ugly, it was more worse than that.

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  16. #41
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    You want to know how Frontpage can screw up your code?

    Add themes. Then look at your source. Half of the page will now be comments, which though they don't show add to the download of the page.

    Add any of the components listed and the actual code is usually one or two lines surrounded by lots of &lt;!-- Frontpage webbot --&gt; comments.

    It used to be that if you manually added code like tables in FrontPage that when you saved it, the program would rearrange all your code resulting in overlapping tags and improperly closed tables. It also allowed you to overlap bold and italic tags. Not sure if 2000 has this problem still.

    Frontpage adds editing code used only by Frontpage to maintain the state of the document. These aren't HTML tags and can screw up other browsers.

    Case in point is the GeoCities code listed above. The entire site is like 11 megabytes of disk space. If I use a utility like KissFP (sorry forgot the URL), I can reduce that to 3 megabytes and all it does it remove Frontpage's comments.

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  17. #42
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>Originally posted by Elledan:
    And again: FP2000 IS NOT BAD AND NEITHER IS DW...

    ...And TWTCommish, I hope you're not serious about saying that anyone who uses such words is younger than 18, this would suggest that those persons are dumb too.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    No, not using those words...just your choice of words and the way you use them...some of tones (rude in some cases) in your posts suggest someone under 18...I could be wrong, just my impression of it.

    FP2000 isn't bad now? If you changed your mind, fine...but you stated it was useless to anyone who knew HTML, and that it was only for newbies...no matter what you say in defense of yourself, that statement (in my opnion) is just flat out naive...I'm not mad, upset, or angry in anyway...and I don't dislike you for your opinion either...I just think you're way off, that's all.



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  18. #43
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Wayne: Christophe (I believe) was referring to using FrontPage without their dumb form creator, web bots, or themes...we're not denying that those are for newbies...I'm pretty sure I can speak for Christophe when I say we both think it's quite useful for table and layout creation...

    I havn't had any problems with overlapping tags in all my time with FP98...and definetly not in FP2K...



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  19. #44
    SitePoint Guru CJ's Avatar
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    Thanks Chris!

    Well WLUKE, I thought I said which crappy code is added in FP2000 when you DON'T use all those extensions, webbots, themes, etc.

    Anyone? I guess a lot of people just are told that FP is for beginners, but actually it works much faster than other programs. And it is not less powerfull than DW.

    Christophe

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