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  1. #1
    Typo Negative brokenvoice's Avatar
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    Tempted to ask "What's the point?"

    I've been working on a layout for my site for the past couple of weeks. Spending a lot of time on typography, trying to get everything just right. I don't want to use tables, I want the site to work on every browser so I want to use XHTML Strict for document structure and CSS2 for presentation.

    Opera doesn't understand what {text-indent : 1.5em;} should actually look like and IE 6 can't figure out percentage widths of a <div> whos parent also has a percentage width.

    There's a screenshot of all this at http://www.brokenvoice.org/css_problems/css_burps.gif

    Strangely, when you use the HTML Strict DOCTYPE instead of the XHTML Strict DOCTYPE, IE can suddenly figure out correct widths again.

    Bah!

  2. #2
    SitePoint Wizard Aes's Avatar
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    That's a very nice looking site by the way. However, if you're going for compatibility in every browser, CSS2 is not the way to go -- yet.

    Tables are great -- they're part of the xHTML 1.1 specification, and when used appropriately work wonders.

    I'm not saying refrain from CSS2 by any means -- I love CSS; just don't use it completely, in my opinion, until every browser supports it as well as they do HTML.

    EDIT: Also of note, if you have PHP on your server, I have a nice browser detection script I use to write specific DOCTYPES depending upon the browser being used to allow my pages to appear correctly.

    I'd be happy to "hook you up" so to speak.
    Colin Anderson
    Ambition is a poor excuse for those without
    sense enough to be lazy.

  3. #3
    Typo Negative brokenvoice's Avatar
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    I agree with what you are saying regarding the XHTML specification, tables do have a structural role. The W3C has been very specific about not using any presentational markup (we are talking XHTML Strict here rather than the transitional variety), and as it is only my own site, I'm more than happy to spend time getting my layouts done in CSS. I want to be fully up and running when the browser makers finally get their acts together.

    As for browser compatibility, the site will work in anything from IE 6 right down to Avant Go because of the separation of style from content. Though it certainly won't look the same it will function properly. I just find it ironic coming on the back of the Microsoft MSN fiasco where they were bleating on about locking out browsers that don't support the latest standards (when in fact their code was uterly non-standard) and yet their latest browser can't handle these very same latest standards.

    Ironic also the one of the main men (possibly even the main man) behind CSS is very high up in Opera, yet they too have their own CSS glitches.

    Thanks for your offer of that PHP browser sniffer, though just after I posted I wrote one myself

  4. #4
    What? Maelstrom's Avatar
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    Originally posted by brokenvoice
    I agree with what you are saying regarding the XHTML specification, tables do have a structural role. The W3C has been very specific about not using any presentational markup (we are talking XHTML Strict here rather than the transitional variety), and as it is only my own site, I'm more than happy to spend time getting my layouts done in CSS. I want to be fully up and running when the browser makers finally get their acts together.
    The utopia of inet development. When this happens programming for the web will actually be more like creating applications.

    The biggest thing standing in the way of further development into true standards is
    a) Developers refusing to care about standards
    b) Client and surfers not knowing and caring about them

    Until those two things get fixed I don't believe we will see a true developers standard for a long time. Unless we forget about the clients with non-standard browsers altogether.
    Maelstrom Personal - Apparition Visions
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  5. #5
    <C²: web standards /> cybercodeur's Avatar
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    I agree with Maelstrom yet once again. Standards are far from being implemented even though the browsers are now capable of supporting most of them in a nice way.

    It's a matter of educating everybody. Cients, project managers, salesperson, etc. It's our duty as Web builders to promote the cause of Web Standards.

    I feel the same way as you do. I'd like to make my site the more standards compliant possible. In the making I put myself under so much pressure that I can't get anything done. I am always trying to push more and the result is that I keep going backwards.

    I think we have to accept the fact that it can't be perfect just yet. But that doesn't mean we can't make it as perfect as possible in today's reality.

    I think some ways of coding, even though not totally compliant still have to be used. Tables for example, still can be used even though it would be much greater in terms of accomplishment to create your whole site without any.

    It's a good thing to try to be innovative, but it becomes a helluva nightmare when the world around you isn't ready for your ideas.
    Last edited by cybercodeur; Jan 4, 2002 at 00:07.
    Denis Boudreau <C²/> - Web Standards & Accessibility
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  6. #6
    What? Maelstrom's Avatar
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    Originally posted by cybercodeur
    I agree with Maelstrom yet once again. Standards are far from being implemented even though the browsers are now capable of supporting most of them in a nice way.

    That is happening quite a bit. ...

    BTW congrats on 200

    [quote]
    I think some ways of coding, even though not totally compliant still have to be used. Tables for example, still can be used even though it would be much greater in terms of accomplishment to create your whole site without any
    [/code]

    Its ironic but I started out using layers. The book I had taught layers as the primary way of positioning. However after much experimenting and kicking of computer thanx to different browsers I find I use tables almost exclusively and use layers more like large containers
    Maelstrom Personal - Apparition Visions
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  7. #7
    <C²: web standards /> cybercodeur's Avatar
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    I work pretty much the same way Maelstrom. Layers are taking up more place every day in my design habits but just not as much as I'd wish it did. We have to be patient. It's not easy to be ahead of his time...

    I haven't forgotten you Maelstrom. I should be able to send you something over the weekend. I've just been busy more than expected. Spending way too much time in here as taken much of my time.

    Be careful people. This place is addictive !

    I hope you can bear with me. I think it'll be worth it.

    And thank you. I did hit 200 last night. Pretty good considering I only subscribed some three weeks ago.
    Denis Boudreau <C²/> - Web Standards & Accessibility
    [+] ICQ number: 115649885 || Email: denis@cybercodeur.net
    [+] Daily Weblog on Web standards and accessibility : CYBERcodeur.net

  8. #8
    What? Maelstrom's Avatar
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    [i]I haven't forgotten you Maelstrom. I should be able to send you something over the weekend. I've just been busy more than expected. Spending way too much time in here as taken much of my time.

    Be careful people. This place is addictive !

    I hope you can bear with me. I think it'll be worth it.

    [/B]
    Well after seeing your website as well as seeing you arouund the forums I am sure it will be great. I just hope I can do it justice and create a site around the logo. And patience is my middle name I am currently in an interview process for an IT job building intranets so I am a little preoccupied.
    Maelstrom Personal - Apparition Visions
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  9. #9
    .net install meltdown
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    <offtopic>

    Originally posted by Maelstrom
    I am currently in an interview process for an IT job building intranets so I am a little preoccupied.
    Good luck Maelstrom.

    </offtopic>

  10. #10
    Back in Action Winged Spider's Avatar
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    First let me say that you have a very nice site. I've already bookmarked it for later reference.

    Using CSS for layout is a tough road to travel on.

    For the time being I've just said **** it and let the different browsers view the page a little differently instead of messing around with detection scripts and multiple style sheets. I have a page right now that just won't work quite right in IE. My solution? Let IE users suffer.

    Unfornatuly clients don't want to hear things like that and I'm always "forced" to work with tables.

    I personaly can't wait until content, code, and presentation are 100% separated from each other.

    I posted a thread a while back on posting our table-less creations on one thread to be css positioning resource. Why don't we restart that idea again?

    Let's show off these great achievements!


  11. #11
    What? Maelstrom's Avatar
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    Originally posted by isotope235
    <offtopic>

    Good luck Maelstrom.

    </offtopic>
    Thanx. ...Muchly appreicated.

    As for the tableless designs it would be fun to see what people can do using layers only. I am a little out of practice myself but I always enjoy watching
    Maelstrom Personal - Apparition Visions
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  12. #12
    .net install meltdown
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    Apoloigies for posting offtopic before looking at your page.

    Instead of using width:%;, experiment with setting the right & left margin prop's for id="content" for a fluid layout. There's some good info on this technique at glish.

    I haven't tested it, but using pixels for text-indent units might yield more consistent cross-browser results than em.

    Can you put up a link to the coded page? It would be helpful to see the source html & css.

  13. #13
    Typo Negative brokenvoice's Avatar
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    Using the margins like you said works differently in IE6 than in Moz 0.9.7 and Opera 6, you have to set text-align : center in the body selector. The main container's width is actually set by margins on the body selector.

    As for using pixels to describe the text indents, typographically, an indent should be between 1 and 2 ems. If I use pixels, the text indent will stay the same even if the vistor increases the font size, which would ruin the effect of the indent.

    To be honest, I didn't post looking for a solution, it was more out of frustration. The fact that it broke if I used the XHTML Strict DOCTYPE and worked ok if I used the HTML Strict DOCTYPE annoys me. The fact that Opera got the indent wrong annoys me (though much less so). I was just looking to start a discussion about the implications rather than find a cure (which in effect I already have by switching to HTML Strict).

  14. #14
    <C²: web standards /> cybercodeur's Avatar
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    Good luck Maelstrom with your job interview. If your qualifications are only half as good as the quality of the messages you post in here, I'm sure you'll get it hand up!

    I think I'll be able to send you something later on today. I've used Poser 4 and Illustrator to get a body in Vector shape. Then I'll turn to good old Photoshop for a few magic tricks.

    Bear with me my friend !

    As for designing a site using mostly (or only) layers instead of tables, that's exactly what I plan on doing. I am still in the process of perfectionning my mock up, but I put myself under enormous pressure to build it as WebStandards compliant as humanly possible (according to my current knowledge that is).

    I'm also trying to finish my article on Web Standards, so I am really in the process of rethinking the way I work... those aren't easy times, but they sure as hell are passionate times...

    I'll be happy to show you all results as it progresses.
    Last edited by cybercodeur; Jan 5, 2002 at 10:43.
    Denis Boudreau <C²/> - Web Standards & Accessibility
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  15. #15
    What? Maelstrom's Avatar
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    To be honest, I didn't post looking for a solution, it was more out of frustration. The fact that it broke if I used the XHTML Strict DOCTYPE and worked ok if I used the HTML Strict DOCTYPE annoys me. The fact that Opera got the indent wrong annoys me (though much less so). I was just looking to start a discussion about the implications rather than find a cure (which in effect I already have by switching to HTML Strict). [/B]
    The problem is that standards are a hot topic in the last bit. Some developers want to use them because they would bring the whole 'application' development one huge step forward. However there are two groups against this move. The first being developers who don't care and like the way their pages show up and 'what works works' theory.

    The second group holding us back seperate even further into people who either refuse to upgrade browsers OR people who do't have the computers to upgrade.

    So in short any topic started on standards will cause some sort of discussion. Congratulations on a succesfu thread
    Maelstrom Personal - Apparition Visions
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  16. #16
    No. Phil.Roberts's Avatar
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    The second group holding us back seperate even further into people who either refuse to upgrade browsers OR people who do't have the computers to upgrade.

    And dont forget the group of people that refuse to adapt to the notion that the WWW is not print design, and that they cannot hold absolute control over what the end user see's. And the web suffers as a result of their attempts to bend the media to their wishes, Instead of designing FOR the web.
    THE INSTRUCTIONS BELOW ARE OLD AND MAY BE INACCURATE.
    THIS INSTALL METHOD IS NOT RECOMMENDED, IT MAY RUN
    OVER YOUR DOG. <-- MediaWiki installation guide

  17. #17
    <C²: web standards /> cybercodeur's Avatar
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    Hi again. I don't know if you got my PM Maelstrom but in any case, here's the logo. Go get your message for more details. Let's just say I am not as happy as I expected because it is impossible to transfer a 32000 polygon shape from Poser to illustrator. Adobe Illustrator just cannot handle it.

    So it had to go from Poser to photoshop directly. Therefore I could not make it a vector shpae as I had expected.

    Still it's not so bad. I hope you'll like it !!!

    The thinkg is since it's not vector shape you won't be able to play with your logo as much as I wanted you to. Oh well.

    Let me know what you think, if you're satisfied.

    New Malestrom logo
    Denis Boudreau <C²/> - Web Standards & Accessibility
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