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Thread: How PR has changed the web. (A debate)

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    SitePoint Enthusiast JCsuperstar's Avatar
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    How PR has changed the web. (A debate)

    How PR has changed the web. (A Tome)

    PageRank and the Supplemental Index
    PageRank has once again been stated to be the primary factor in determining a web page's position in Google's Search Engine Results and a web page's assignment to the 'Main Index' or the 'Supplemental Index'. According to Adam Lasnik, who administers a Google group on crawling, indexing, and ranking, backlinks are a "...key way that our algorithms will view your pages as more valuable to retain in our main index".

    Google has explained that other factors such as content, quality, and on page aspects do make a difference in where you're site is positioned on SERPs. But, with the recent addition of a 'Supplemental Index', pages are now, in effect, grouped into two different categories: searchable and virtually unsearchable with backlinks being the primary determinant of which category a legitimate page will fall under.

    With PageRank as the stated and apparent 'key' factor in determining a web page's designated index, once again the search for quality backlinks is on. And with it comes the need to hoard PageRank, or, in other words, create outbound links to as few people as possible while building inbound links to your own.

    The result is as Adam puts it, a negative "feedback loop" in which a site's viability relies heavily upon backlinks that are increasingly difficult to get. However, basic means of building backlinks, such as link trading and directory submission are more frequently determined to be low quality, thus having little positive benefit on PageRank.

    For large sites, there is usually little trouble in acquiring backlinks. However, a link trade with a small blog or online store is hardly worth the time and effort for larger authority sites. Many smaller sites are either forced to accept few to no inbounds links or are pushed into acquiring low value links, or worse, bad links that are purchased or found in link farms.

    PageRank is King
    Google states that it does not want site owners seeking inbound links in order to manipulate search engine results. However, by creating a demand for links as a scarce and required resource they are, in fact, encouraging just that behavior. The suggestion by Google's representatives to "Get more quality backlinks" is, in effect, a call to do just what they claim to discourage.

    I've seen it many times. Sites that were once placed very high in
    SERPs are now sent to the supplemental index for a lack of backlinks. Content ceases to be king. Fresh updates of the content on product pages that are designed to provide the user with more information and really 'reach out to the customer' as Adam puts it are not even noticed by Google until months later. And then there's still a slim probability that the page will be upgraded back to the main index. This is true even for sites who have unique and quality content.

    Sites who offer troubleshooting forums, original content, and a little more than a cookie cutter, scraped content, online store still have a slim chance of getting back into the main index any time if they cannot acquire backlinks in an aggressive strategy to influence (or rather, manipulate) search engines.

    So who can win?
    Large, already established companies? Sure. Companies with the resources to invest heavily in marketing and advertising? Definitely. Companies who offer a buzz worthy innovation? Yes, if the buzz catches. Mom & Pop shops with quality products and services that are similar (and better) than their large competitors? Probably not. But what if they have better and more informative websites? Still, probably not.

    So the problem is now, this: Google who has claimed to only want to serve the interests of its searchers by relaying the best and most relevant results is actually only relaying those who are established, trendy, or those who have invested the most in trying to manipulate search engines. But they are not actually returning the most relevant pages or even the highest quality web. Right now, Yahoo! is doing that.

    The Solution As I See It
    This being said, and I hope somebody will listen, it's high time Google started hiring some staff! I don't care how great the mathematic algorithms are, they seem to be somewhat inefficient in actually providing the best results. It's like the BCS in College football... there are certain factors that can't be determined simply through automated processing of statistics and coefficients. Javascript and Flash can be useful but Google can't see them. Also, the most useful content is not the keyword stuffed baloney that seems to be required under Google's automated processes.

    What's needed is some good old fashioned people to look through the web on behalf of Google and actually check out websites. You don't have to get rid of crawlers and algorithms, but they should be weighted ( if they already are they should be weighted more) by human opinions and site reviewers. Now, I know this will probably never happen. After all we have to keep costs down to take care of the stockholders and our huge profit margins! And you might tell me that we site owners should be out creating demand for our sites, and we'll automatically start seeing increases in our search positions. But, Google offers a product. That product is designed to
    provide the best quality searches possible to its users and the only way to really do that is to get some actual human opinions.

    To sum up my short tome I would like to say this. I have a site that sells Nortel products, among others. Nortel themselves contacted my company and told me that my site was perhaps the best, most informative secondary market telecommunications site out there. Of course they would not link to my site (after all they're looking out for they're own PageRank) but they are looking into making us an official partner. I built this site by myself, and I market it by myself. I don't have the resources to compete with many others in the online marketing world. However, I offer a better experience and more
    information to my users than most of my competitors. (Sounds familiar right, Google!) Google, with their mathematical algorithms, apparently cannot see this, but maybe, if they got some humans to check it out, they would. And, what's more, they'd offer a better product at the same time.


    Colin
    Last edited by JCsuperstar; Nov 14, 2006 at 15:52. Reason: Make more readable.

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    SitePoint Wizard Pedro Monteiro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCsuperstar
    How PR has changed the web. (A Tome)

    PageRank and the Supplemental Index
    PageRank has once again been stated to be the primary factor in determining a web page's position in Google's Search Engine Results and a web page's assignment to the 'Main Index' or the 'Supplemental Index'. According to Adam Lasnik, who administers a Google group on crawling, indexing, and ranking, backlinks are a "...key way that our algorithms will view your pages as more valuable to retain in our main index".
    I am sorry, but I will have to stop you right there.

    Before proceeding, allow me bring foward an example.

    Here is a case study of one of my campaigns that completely backs my statement:

    Loja das flores is a Flower retail store. Our main level keywords (the ones that provide a better ROI) are "encomenda de flores" (flower delivery)

    Site: http://www.lojadasflores.pt

    Keywords: Encomenda de flores (Flower delivery)

    Rank: #1 and #2
    PR:0

    Keywords: Encomenda flores (Flower delivery without "de")

    Rank: #3 and #4
    PR:0

    Keywords: Encomenda de rosas (Roses delivery)

    Rank: #3 and #4
    PR:0

    Keywords: Encomenda rosas (Roses delivery)

    Rank: #3 and #4
    PR:0

    Please not that this is a 4 month old site.
    __________________

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    SitePoint Wizard Pedro Monteiro's Avatar
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    I'm not saying it's not important, but it is just one more element that integrates goggles algorithm.

    PR is not equivalent to the alorgithm, it's just part of it.

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    King of Paralysis by Analysis bronze trophy
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    Pedro,

    Your example is a little misleading as you're targeting keywords that aren't competitive. Any SEO at all should put you at the top of those SERPs.

    Results 1 - 10 of about 517 for "Encomenda de flores".
    Results 1 - 10 of about 17 for "Encomenda flores".
    Results 1 - 10 of about 325 for "Encomenda de rosas".

    Now with that said, JC Google does employ people that go out there and manually review sites in their index. A year or so ago the Google Quality Guidelines (?) manual that they used to train these people was leaked (or at least parts of it were). I would assume that Google uses their findings to tweak the algo to try to improve it.

    Human edited directories are never going to be as good as Google for obvious reasons, try submitting a site to DMOZ (a good site) and see how long it takes to get in if you get in at all.

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    SitePoint Wizard Pedro Monteiro's Avatar
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    tke71709, but SEO is not about ranking with competitive keywords, it's about ROI, period.

    I want to rank with keywords that will bring my clients some business, not just traffic. And believe me when I tell you that the conversion rate of the campaign that I stated is speaking for itself.

    As for as for any SEO at all being able to rank on those particular keywords, that is accurate, but not any SEO can actually understand that it's better to invest on niche unsaturated segments.

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    King of Paralysis by Analysis bronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro Monteiro
    tke71709, but SEO is not about ranking with competitive keywords, it's about ROI, period.
    Sorry but I disagree 100% with that statement.

    SEO is Search Engine Optimization, is the art of getting ranked well for certain search terms. You can do SEO for crappy terms, you can do SEO for good terms (in terms of ROI) either way you're doing SEO.

    Finding terms with a high ROI is a very useful service and a great add-on to SEO but it's not SEO per se.

    I want to rank with keywords that will bring my clients some business, not just traffic. And believe me when I tell you that the conversion rate of the campaign that I stated is speaking for itself.
    I have no doubt that those terms convert well and you're a smart guy for thinking outside the SEO box but that isn't the discussion here. The discussion was whether PR has been corrupted and whether new sites have any chance in the SERPS. You used those sites as examples of how lower PR/newer sites can do well but in reality they have little or no competition so they aren't good examples for this thread.

    As for as for any SEO at all being able to rank on those particular keywords, that is accurate, but not any SEO can actually understand that it's better to invest on niche unsaturated segments.
    Again I'm not putting down your work, just stating that they aren't good examples for what we were talking about originally.

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    SitePoint Wizard Pedro Monteiro's Avatar
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    tke71709, I get what your saying, and I don't really feel you have put my work in question at all.

    I agree that ROI is just part of SEO like you stated. I might have thrown a fair reasonable argument, but just a tad "off topic".

    However, PR is just one more element behind google's algorithm. I'm not saying you shouldn't take into account, but always keep in mind that it's just one more link in the chain.

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    It is not completely true.

    You can have a PR9 bur if you have duplicate content i.e. content already indexed by other sites you will go in supplemental.

    Plus the toolbar PR updates every 3 months so if i start a blog now and get 20 good PR backlinks the toolbar will still display PR0, even though internally at Google they will have already updated our pagerank.

    So original content + good relevant backlinks = better SERPS.

    Matt Cutts himself said that Google algorithms takes into account about 100 factors. PR is only one of them.

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    He's No Good To Me Dead silver trophybronze trophy stymiee's Avatar
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    Chris Beasley just blogged about PageRank and I think it's worth a read: PageRank: An Essay

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    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    I am sorry, but I will have to stop you right there.

    Before proceeding, allow me bring foward an example.

    Here is a case study of one of my campaigns that completely backs my statement:

    Loja das flores is a Flower retail store. Our main level keywords (the ones that provide a better ROI) are "encomenda de flores" (flower delivery)

    Site: http://www.lojadasflores.pt

    Keywords: Encomenda de flores (Flower delivery)

    Rank: #1 and #2
    PR:0

    Keywords: Encomenda flores (Flower delivery without "de")

    Rank: #3 and #4
    PR:0

    Keywords: Encomenda de rosas (Roses delivery)

    Rank: #3 and #4
    PR:0

    Keywords: Encomenda rosas (Roses delivery)

    Rank: #3 and #4
    PR:0

    Please not that this is a 4 month old site.
    http://www.sitepoint.com/article/top...myths-revealed

    This article was written in 2002, it is not new information. You've made the mistake of believing myths 1 and 2.
    Chris Beasley - I publish content and ecommerce sites.
    Featured Article: Free Comprehensive SEO Guide
    My Guide to Building a Successful Website
    My Blog|My Webmaster Forums

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    SitePoint Wizard Pedro Monteiro's Avatar
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    Aspen, I have the utmost respect for you, but what I am stating in that post is completely the opposite.

    The site that I am ranking with has absolutely no PR at all.

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    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    You need to read that article.

    Myth #1, PR is all that matters

    It isn't all that matters, you can get to the top on some terms, certainly obscure ones like you have mentioned, without it.

    Myth #2, the Google toolbar shows your actual PR.

    Not only does Google calculate PR on a daily basis (and only update the toolbar quarterly or biannually) but also a PR of 0 is really just an actual PR of 0-1.

    So it is possible that you have a PR of 1 or higher, and Google merely has not updated the toolbar since calculating it. It is also possible that your PR is between 0 and 1 (maybe .5, or .9) but with their rounding formula it comes out as 0.

    You see what I mean? The Google Toolbar is perpetually stale in what it shows, and also only an approximation of your actual score. You can't base any kind of conclusion off of what it shows anymore.
    Chris Beasley - I publish content and ecommerce sites.
    Featured Article: Free Comprehensive SEO Guide
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    King of Paralysis by Analysis bronze trophy
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    You probably shouldn't have posted the search phrases, this thread is now outranks your SEO work for some of the keyphrases lol. I hope your client doesn't come across this thread

    Further proof of what we've been saying that your phrases are not competitive at all.

    You seem to be saying that the fact that you're ranking with 0 PR means that PR isn't as important as people think. The truth of the matter is you're going up against a bunch of other pages with PR0 in the SERPS. Very few of the other first page listings have any PR at all.

    So your PR0 page is competing against a bunch of other PR0 pages that no one is optimizing for. Which PR 0 page is better? Google goes to other factors than PR to determine that (anchor text, on-page, theme, etc...).

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    SitePoint Wizard Pedro Monteiro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tke71709

    You seem to be saying that the fact that you're ranking with 0 PR means that PR isn't as important as people think. The truth of the matter is you're going up against a bunch of other pages with PR0 in the SERPS. Very few of the other first page listings have any PR at all.
    Keyword: encomenda de flores.

    http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...enda+de+flores

    http://www.flowerland.com.br/info/en...rnacional.aspx - PR4

    http://office.microsoft.com/pt-br/te...CT101043091046 - What do you know, it's Microsoft

    http://www.interflora.pt/aboutus.aspx - PR 3

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    SitePoint Wizard Pedro Monteiro's Avatar
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    I guess that what I'm saying is that PR is not important, it does not bring you sales.

    I'm not obliterating the importance of Page Rank, it it what it is. It doesn't determine how well you are/will do in the SERPS. Other factors come into play, such has the context of the link and the words in the anchor text.

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    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    Just because there are other factors, doesn't mean PR is not a factor. They are not mutually exclusive, this is what you must realize.
    Chris Beasley - I publish content and ecommerce sites.
    Featured Article: Free Comprehensive SEO Guide
    My Guide to Building a Successful Website
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    SitePoint Wizard Pedro Monteiro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aspen
    Just because there are other factors, doesn't mean PR is not a factor. They are not mutually exclusive, this is what you must realize.
    Hello Aspen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro Monteiro

    However, PR is just one more element behind google's algorithm. I'm not saying you shouldn't take into account, but always keep in mind that it's just one more link in the chain.
    I don't know where you are getting the perception that I am discarding PR has a factor, but that's precisely what it is, a factor among plenty of others.

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    SitePoint Enthusiast JCsuperstar's Avatar
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    Hello all,

    Thanks for commenting. I thought my original entry was too long and would probably just be looked at and not commented on. So thanks for the surprise!

    What I was trying to suggest is that PR is important in that, according to Google's own employees, backlinks are a main determinant of whether you are in the 'Supplemental' index. This is especially true for sites selling common goods. I also wanted to emphasize that it also holds true even if you have original content for a common product. Since many (and most retail sites) sell similar goods this problem is especially relevant.

    I do have 'Supplemental' Pages that show up #1 for certain search terms, however these are mostly rare or low demand items. For popular items, pages that have been sent to 'Supplemental' index for low PR (rather than originality or usefulness of content) will never see the light of day.

    I don't disagree that completely human edited directories can't compete with search engines. However, I believe that more time should be committed to website reviewing and more weight given to objective human opinion in Google's algorithms. This, I think, would provide a more ideal mixture to provide the most relevant search results.

    I also wanted to make the point that PR was supposed to be a useful tool to help determine a page's weight. But with Google's own employees saying 'Get backlinks' they themselves are encouraging SEO for the sake of "manipulating search engines". It has become an end in itself. Whether that's good or not is a good question? But, it was definitely not the original intent and definitely causes results to be skewed.

    Colin
    "Experience is simply the name we give our mistakes."

    Zen-Tel: Be one with your phone system.

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    SitePoint Enthusiast JCsuperstar's Avatar
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    Also, I would like to comment on Chris Beasley's essay.

    Chris says, "Web pages that are useful get more incoming links than web pages that are not useful." in the article after he describes how a link is seen as a vote for a web page. That is a pretty good summary of what he is saying.

    I would say that in theory this is great logic. Also, in practice it applies well to large sites like CNet and IBM who are already well known and visited often enough that at least a few people will link to them on their own and solely on merit. Website owners, writers, bloggers, etc. make themselves look credible by citing authority sites. Because of being around forever (since before Google was a twinkle in Larry's eye), massive advertising, or simply being the manufacturer of a product these sites are already known, trusted, authorities and will get backlinks on merit alone. They are above PageRank competition. For these sites PR is a great concept.

    But for etailers and blogs and smaller, yet still informative websites this is not the case. The fact is that most often pages with the most inbound links are those that spend the most time trying to get them (or who employ link trading pages) and are not in fact a vote for that site or a measure of its usefulness.

    In the example of my site. My competitors who are ranked at the top of SERPs (and not in the Supplemental index) are linked to by directories or people who were looking for a traded link. I've checked out every backlink searchable on Google for my competitors sites and all backlinks are from link pages or directories. However, because they sent time 'manipulating search engines' they are ranked higher.

    That being the case for most smaller sites PR is no longer what it was originally intended to be and I believe these sites' relevance & usefulness is better determined based on content and objective, non-competitive human opinion.

    Finally, Chris says, "the PageRank algorithm, in it’s infinite elegance, already takes such a feature [relevancy] into account indirectly through it’s appreciation of the implications of an incoming link". I have to respond that the usage of PageRank itself has changed the implication and meaning of an incoming link for the vast majority of sites. If PR is to remain a good indicator of usefulness or relevancy it should be tempered by these considerations.
    Last edited by JCsuperstar; Nov 20, 2006 at 12:29. Reason: Make more readable.
    "Experience is simply the name we give our mistakes."

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    King of Paralysis by Analysis bronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCsuperstar
    I also wanted to make the point that PR was supposed to be a useful tool to help determine a page's weight. But with Google's own employees saying 'Get backlinks' they themselves are encouraging SEO for the sake of "manipulating search engines". It has become an end in itself. Whether that's good or not is a good question? But, it was definitely not the original intent and definitely causes results to be skewed.

    Colin
    Unfortunately with anything that is remotely connected to money people are going to seek to skew the results. The best Google or any SE can do is to figure out ways to identify and devalue the "skewers".

    They've done it in the past with large SEO companies that left footprints in their codes (TrafficPower anyone? http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/confirming-a-penalty/)

    I'm under a firm belief that Google (and others) are actively trying to stay ahead of the SEO game. Matt Cutts has himself stated that pages have been devalued for obviously selling links (non-themed links).

    The problem is determining when a link is bought and when it is legitimely earned, some signs of dodgy links that Google could check for would include imho site-wide links, links at the end of a page (footer), reciprocal links, repeated use of exact same anchor text (with the anchor text not being the domain name). If Google doesn't devalue these links now, I feel that they are working on tweaking their algo to do so at the moment.

    I don't see Google ever punishing sites for these links as you could get a competitor banned by using them, but I can see them as essentially passing 0 PR to the linked page. It may not be happening today, it may not happen tomorrow, but it will happen and when it does those who built their sites on real links will be rewarded.

    With that said, I've got nothing against the blackhatters out there. It's a high-risk/reward scenario for them and a lot of work.

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