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  1. #101
    SitePoint Wizard Pedro Monteiro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maginno
    What does a sketch have to do with anything? The design has to be finished complete with revisions in order to win most contests.
    I present sketches. They might look finished, but usually all they get is raw work from me. If I see that I am in the right direction I may chose to refine the work and present something closer to the finished product.

    Quote Originally Posted by maginno
    No I am assuming that if you compare it to a regular project (as you did) in terms of real world value then they are equal and not comparisons between apples and oranges. If as you said the rate of $250 is good then for the same design why wouldn't you put in the same hours? I think you are admitting that $250 isn't good enough to put in the same hours but don't realize your admitting it yet.
    But I do admit that. My point still stands, I feel it is a good rate for the time that I am willing to put in.

  2. #102
    SitePoint Wizard Pedro Monteiro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maginno
    Heartily agree and I wanted to drop the issue of value of contests and come back to what I see as a big step backward.

    In looking over the guidelines today I noticed a big change. The guidelines when I last checked them indicated that abandoning a contest was a bannable offense. that wording has been eliminated. There is now nothing in the guidelines that suggest ANY penalty for abandoning a contest (unless i missed it which is possible)

    The coming system as announced here will actually make note of abandonments and when they do that will further announce to other contest holders looking at active contests that abandoning contests will not get you banned "(unless perhaps you get really outrageous.).

    Why is Sitepoint so afraid of banning members who abandon contests? I don't understand it.
    I haven't read the guideline changes, but I take your word for it, and I must agree with you, it is a bit worrying indeed.

    And for the life of me, I can't understand how a contest holder who abandoned a contest is still allowed to log in to the community forums.

  3. #103
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    Sorry pedro your point fails you just don't see that it does. A sketch does not win you a contest. Its no point. You have to finish the whole thing with revisions.

    your second arguments falls as well because you can't claim its equal pay for equal work if you are not willing to put in the same hours. You distinctly said it matched real world pay rates by referring to contract work done. Since you won't put in the same hours to what you are comparing it to then its a classic example of comparing apples to oranges. The point has no logical way of standing.

  4. #104
    SitePoint Wizard Pedro Monteiro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maginno
    Sorry pedro your point fails you just don't see that it does. A sketch does not win you a contest. Its no point. You have to finish the whole thing with revisions.
    You make a very good point here and raise an interesting issue . Maybe contest holders should not be able to request revisions. Afterall, they are "buying" a concept that can be later refined. So I will take that one in the gut, and do agree with you that sketches don't win contests. Everytime I won a contest I had refine my design over and over again, although I did limit my time.

    Quote Originally Posted by maginno
    your second arguments falls as well because you can't claim its equal pay for equal work if you are not willing to put in the same hours. You distinctly said it matched real world pay rates by referring to contract work done. Since you won't put in the same hours to what you are comparing it to then its a classic example of comparing apples to oranges. The point has no logical way of standing.
    Here is where we drift apart. What I said was that it is a good rate for me for the hours that I put in, but you are the one who is comparing a contest to a contracted job. This situation reminds me of Web design firms that design "sketches" to use as baits to close contracts. The amount of hours that were spent to develop "hook designs" are naturally considerably lower then if the job was already contracted. I take the same approach when designing for a contest. If I win the contest, I have done so by sacrificing time that constituted a good ROI for me.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro Monteiro
    Here is where we drift apart. What I said was that it is a good rate for me for the hours that I put in, but you are the one who is comparing a contest to a contracted job.
    I'd rather drop this issue because we won't agree but you did the comparison right here

    "And as for the "real world" remark, well I have been on this industry long enough to know how it works, and it IS the real World on the broader sense, like it or not. I have worked for very high rates when dealing directly with the costumer, but I also outsource my work for lower fees"

    That is contract work you are hired for and it was you who brought it in for a comparison. doesn't work because by your own admission you won't do the same hours. Some people think $7.00 an hour is a great pay scale but its not an issue of what you consider good for you but of what the industry charges under normal non contest situations.

    Suffice to say until you can show me a company that can get a web design done from any web design firm for $250 then we will agree that its a good rate by real world standards. Until then its a steal of a deal. No ifs no buts.

  6. #106
    SitePoint Member sbell22's Avatar
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    I'm with Maginno (post #16), the period is too long. Why should it take over 7 days for a graphic design contest, or over 10 days for a web design contest? Unless someone is really dragging their feet.

    I feel if they want to participate, they should be ready - on both sides. And to extend the period, increases the chance for abandonment and other forms of fraud.

    The SP contest system is a very cool thing, I hope the community will protect it. True entrepreneurialism at work. And as observed, some serious talent on display! Long live SP contests!!

    -steve

  7. #107
    ~Design Contests Freak~ khuldun's Avatar
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    I guess my original 3 point suggestion agenda got crushed in the avalanche
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  8. #108
    One website at a time mmj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maginno
    In looking over the guidelines today I noticed a big change. The guidelines when I last checked them indicated that abandoning a contest was a bannable offense. that wording has been eliminated. There is now nothing in the guidelines that suggest ANY penalty for abandoning a contest (unless i missed it which is possible)
    The main reason for that guidelines change was to reflect that the contest will now be deemed 'abandoned' by the system automatically - so I removed the part about reporting the issue to a moderator and having a moderator close the contest, as the contest may now be closed by itself. It was not my intention to downplay the seriousness of that particular guideline - in fact, all those guidelines should be treated seriously and will always be dealt with at moderators' discretion.

    The moderators now get a stern looking red warning when they haven't given feedback to an entry, and if they leave it 4 days they will get an email.

    This week, while the contests are half price and you still have the option of creating an old contest if you prefer, I'll be observing how it is working and speaking with contest holders and entrants to get feedback.
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  9. #109
    Matt Williams revsorg's Avatar
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    In previous competitions I have noticed some people remove their entries at some stage after entering them.

    I imagine there are a number of reasons for this, sometimes to do with saving a design for use elsewhere, not wanting to have failed entries seen by the whole world, or simply that free image hosting stopped delivering the image into the Sitepoint page.

    The new system doesn't seem to let you delete images. Is that a deliberate decision?
    And it seems that you also can't submit an entry that is hosted elsewhere, it has to be an uploaded image.
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  10. #110
    Night Elf silver trophybronze trophy Varelse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmj
    (...) The moderators now get a stern looking red warning when they haven't given feedback to an entry, and if they leave it 4 days they will get an email.
    Contest holders... Right?
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  11. #111
    ~Design Contests Freak~ khuldun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varelse
    Contest holders... Right?
    Beat me to it, i was just about to give a heads up on that.
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  12. #112
    ~Design Contests Freak~ khuldun's Avatar
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    Id like to roll out a couple other ideas as well.

    Is there a way to segregate Logo, Complete Identity Package, Uncoded Templates and Coded Templates.

    A way to show total prize money on the main contest listings page.

    A way to view contest in order of date of closing of receiving entries.

    A way to just check only the contests in which you have submitted an entry ( Apart form the usual search function )


    mmj it would eb interesting to get your views on my previous suggestions as well.
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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmj
    The main reason for that guidelines change was to reflect that the contest will now be deemed 'abandoned' by the system automatically - so I removed the part about reporting the issue to a moderator and having a moderator close the contest, as the contest may now be closed by itself.
    Okay, I see why it was changed however right now if you read the guidelines the only consequence mentioned for abandoning a contest is that it will be closed. Thats pretty much what an abandoner wants anyway. Plus when a propective contest holder sees an active contest from someone who has abandoned contests in the past (since it will be shown) the natural conclusion will be that its fine and dandy to do it a few times - ample wiggle room.

    I'm getting how the system will deter regulars who care from participating in a contest by a past abandoner but I'm not seeing anything that deters the CH from abandoning in the first place. Trust me even with two or three abandonments on record they will still get entries and knowing some arguments already raised by abandoners (in open threads) it will become a ratio thing. How many contests have i paid to how many times am I allowed to show no respect for people's time and effort.

    Obviously I can't make Sitepoint have a Zero tolerance policy for abandonments and I'll live with it as a natural part of participating in contests here but just in case you really want to cut down on it I can't see any other policy that will work (well maybe a two or three strike you are out rule might help). and yes I can see why you wouldn't want to be too harsh. Unlike say disciplining board spammers, coming down hard on Contest holders has some consequences. Chargebacks etc. Totally understandable hassle.

  14. #114
    10% cool, 90% geek. vkw91's Avatar
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    i thought this whole new change in contests was suppost to stop the coping of design etc...??
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  15. #115
    Non-Member buzzfretz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro Monteiro
    I don't see any sense in that. Forcing a contest holder to accept a design? I can't see how that would benefit anyone. Even though these contest do have their share of arbitrage, the prize is not a bounty. I just feel a system such has that would dramatically decrease the quality of the designs, as in reality, anyone could win.
    First of all, I fail to see how guaranteeing that a winner will be chosen would dramatically decrease the quality of the designs. By that same reasoning, if SitePoint were to raise the minimum award to, say, $1000 US then the designs would suffer even more since a prize is not a bounty and anyone could win.

    I must reiterate my original point. If the CH went to a PR firm and offered $120 for a logo design (the cost of holding a contest and the minimum award for a logo) he/she would be laughed out the door. As it stands now, the CH can (for only $20!) see literally dozens of prospective designs and then cheerfully abandon the contest on a whim.

    That's not really a contest so much as it is a sucker punch!

  16. #116
    SitePoint Wizard Pedro Monteiro's Avatar
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    I still can't understand this persistence in comparing a contest to a hired job. No offense intended, but people seem to act has if were mandatory to participate in these contests.

  17. #117
    Brevity is greatly overrated brandaggio's Avatar
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    Speaking only for myself, I try to evaluate if something is "an opportunity worth pursuing", weighing the possible upsides and downsides.

    One has to decide for themselves if the contests are an "opportunity worth pursuing" - different people will have different factors to consider and thus be compelled to enter or not.

  18. #118
    Non-Member buzzfretz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro Monteiro
    I still can't understand this persistence in comparing a contest to a hired job. No offense intended, but people seem to act has if were mandatory to participate in these contests.
    The Miss America Contest is not a hired job yet I don't remember there ever being a year when nobody was chosen because none of the contestants was sparkly or bubbly enough.

    Nor do I recall the Miss America Pageant ever being abandoned by the contest holders.

    No one has said that a contest is the same as a paying job. Why would having the CH choose one winner out of many options be same as a hired job? Not meaning to offend, either, but I just don't see that there is a comparison being made. For one thing, if someone hired you to do some work and then refused to pay you could sue them.

    Of course, the contests are not mandatory to enter. But don't you think that giving the CH the option to abandon a contest actually discourages potential entrants? Does this alone not cause the potential quality of the submissions to suffer?

    If an award is offered by a CH and then later withdrawn then the award becomes imaginary-- like a carrot on a stick.

  19. #119
    SitePoint Guru ckita's Avatar
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    Great to see some changes being implemented, boy it's been a long time since i viewed the contest section of sitepoint, indeed it has improved.

    I miss the days of Malbar..NHR and co :P

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro Monteiro
    I still can't understand this persistence in comparing a contest to a hired job. No offense intended, but people seem to act has if were mandatory to participate in these contests.
    Which people? Who ever implied that? Sorry Pedro but your point continues to make no sense to me. No design job is mandatory. A web design firm can choose to take a project or decline it. Your argument just as well argues that there should be no minimums at all since it isn't mandatory but if you are going to set any minimums (as in what you consider fair to do a design hired or not ) then to what criteria do you apply it to except what customers usually pay to a design firm albeit at only a percentage of that.

    As has been pointed out ad nauseam the value of a contest is even higher because the CH gets more comps than they would get at any design firm plus revision of those comps and a finished product. So egad! how unreasonable it is that after accepting multiple designs and particularly after asking for revisions the Ch actually be obliged to pick a winner?

    I still can't understand the persistence of arguing that a designer ought not to be paid at the whim of any CH.

  21. #121
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buzzfretz
    If an award is offered by a CH and then later withdrawn then the award becomes imaginary-- like a carrot on a stick.
    That is where the escrow account should come in -- Datura
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  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by buzzfretz
    Nor do I recall the Miss America Pageant ever being abandoned by the contest holders.
    Even after the question and answer round when it would be entirely justified :

  23. #123
    SitePoint Wizard Pedro Monteiro's Avatar
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    I have both held and participated in contests in the past, and as contest holder I always chose a winner, but I tell you what, if choosing a winner had been mandatory, I would never had started a contest in the first place, instead, I would have opened a thread on the "looking for hire" and would have probably gotten dozens of messages from web design firm and freelancers.

    The nature of these contests allow freelancers without a very diverse portfolio to get some good work in. There is no doubt that the risk is essentially on the designers side, but it is a risk that they assume when participating. I haven't really seen that many bad experiences with contest holders lately, but risk is always a factor in business. Haven't you ever had a non-paying client?

  24. #124
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro Monteiro
    but risk is always a factor in business. Haven't you ever had a non-paying client?
    Non paying clients are everywhere. I had people taken to court, have had collection agencies go after them and so on. That is an inherent risk in business. There is no protection for the naive and trusting soul, it is raw out there, that is why the escrow account is so appealing to me. I deal with overseas customers in that way, works like a charm.

    But I do understand that SP would have to be the party to hold that account, so they might not be willing to go there -- Datura
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  25. #125
    <code></code><WoW></WoW> nukeemusn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro Monteiro
    The nature of these contests allow freelancers without a very diverse portfolio to get some good work in.
    Amen, dude. That's why I started entering them! I joined Sitepoint in April, and my first 50 or so "posts" were contest-related entries. when I realized that I was losing, well, ALL of them, I figured I'd start hanging around in the rest of the forums and learn some stuff. I think that despite the risks, it's definately worth it to relative newbies like myself. Since the only way to get better at design is to actually DESIGN stuff, it's an awesome oppurtunity to do so, and maybe get paid for it. And for those of us who might not be the best designers, it helps to acclimate us to understanding what clients want. Not to mention getting us used to rejection and negative (but hoepfully constructive) criticizm. How many desingers have been rejected by a few clients and gave up? Tons! This way, you can get rejected, and you don't really lose much except time. And you lose a lot less time per contest than you would calling prospects, setting up and attending meetings, and writing proposals.

    Then again, I also have another job that is so steady that I CAN'T quit even if I wanted to (US military), so income isn't really an issue. So I, personally, cna afford to "waste" a few hours a week with lost contests, all the while growing as a designer/developer. I'd imagine that many contest entrants aren't in the same boat, though...
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