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Thread: SitePoint's New Contests System
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Oct 31, 2006, 17:28 #76
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mhulse, I don't see why Sitepoint's profit is an issue at all. Besides, just do the math, they might be generating some income, but surely not that much.
I respect your position, you chose not to participate due the risk element involved.
The system isn't perfect, and it will require some more improvements, but it does work and I feel Sitepoint provides a fantastic service to both designers and contest holders.
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Oct 31, 2006, 17:43 #77
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Originally Posted by maginno
And it is true, that if there was no prize emoney, there'd be few (ok, more likely no) entries. And, since money is ALWAYS tight around my house, I would definately count myself blessed to win a few. They'd be great additions to my portfolio, as well.
BUT, I still contend that tehre's nobody twisting anyone's arm to get them to enter. It's up to each designer to decide if they want to risk doing the work for nothing. I believe my last post was in reference to "consolation prizes" or something such. Consolation prizes here would be like walking up to a tourist, taking a polaroid, and telling them that they have to buy it. And if they refuse, telling them that that have to pay SOMETHING, even if they don't want it.
Don't get me wrong, if I had a dollar for every contest I'd lost, I'd have... well, about $40, but that not withstanding, it wouldn't be fair to the contest holder, as they have no control over how many designers will bite, and it would remove some of the motivation to do ones absolute personal best work, since "hell, I'm getting paid either way."
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Oct 31, 2006, 17:45 #78
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Originally Posted by mhulse
Don't sit in a hole, come out and stick your neck out some more, that is a good thing to do. I embarrass myself all the time, so what? And that is also very much the spirit of those contests, sticking your neck out and getting it bitten off. So???
Thanks for noticing my little Halloween Avatar, I value your opinion, Micky. You have a nice and spooky night now -- Datura
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Oct 31, 2006, 17:59 #79
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Pedro I don't think many people outside of the contests forum in the design world will agree that its fantastic at all. The rational argument is that it helps reduce the worth of designers. A good case in point is when you mention that you think $250 for a web design is good without branding. $250 is a joke with or without a logo in the real design world. It would get you laughed out any real design firm. You can't be a real web designer on $250 a job. For one you would never get enough clients to make a good living. Even I (new to design but not development) rarely enter a minimum priced contest
I totally understand where Mhulse is coming from and though I participate in the contests for my own reasons and can see a benefit to it I have to admit its mostly for those new to the design world.
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Oct 31, 2006, 18:15 #80
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Originally Posted by maginno
Last edited by ses5909; Apr 3, 2007 at 05:43.
Matt Mickiewicz - Co-Founder
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Oct 31, 2006, 18:16 #81
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maginno, I am sorry, but I couldn't disagree more.
I don't think those rates are that low. After all, it's all about the hours you put in, and I do believe that 250$ for 2 productive hours is not bad at all, but that's just me.
And as for the "real world" remark, well I have been on this industry long enough to know how it works, and it IS the real World on the broader sense, like it or not. I have worked for very high rates when dealing directly with the costumer, but I also outsource my work for lower fees. I don't see this has reductive at all.
Also, the worth of a designer is measured by his work, not by his hourly rate.
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Oct 31, 2006, 18:16 #82
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"If someone is such a good designer that they can bank on winning, then more power to them."
As a side note thats pretty much impossible because to be honest I have seen the worse designs win sometimes. I can think of one that looked like it was made by a kid with pretty close to white stick figures and it won. So you could be a master web designer and lose if the Ch or their client has lousy taste.
For objectivity I've looked at contests that I never entered and I can tell you its 50/50 that the best looking design will win. I've been really impressed with maybe 4 or 5 entries on sitepoint (I mean really outstanding) and I got to tell you maybe only three of them won the contest they were in. Its unbelievable at times.
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Oct 31, 2006, 18:23 #83
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Originally Posted by Pedro Monteiro
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Oct 31, 2006, 18:44 #84
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I also can't put a price on inspiration. I've racked my brain at times to come up with things to put in my portfolio, and I can say from experience that sometimes its a pain to come up with a foundation for a great idea. It's hard enough to come up with an idea for a business model to actually follow, and it's just as hard to come up with a fictional company to create a logo for. The contests provide that foundation. And as for the portfolio, theres no univeral law that says that losing contest entries can't be put in a portfolio.
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Oct 31, 2006, 18:45 #85
Contest...
Originally Posted by Pedro Monteiro
What I see more often is the contest holder being presented with dozens of different designs (and variations on those designs) after spending a nominal amount of money. In other words, it's not a bad deal for the contest holder.
Originally Posted by Pedro Monteiro
If the designs are so bad then people will stop holding contests. In fact, they would have probably already stopped long ago if the design contests were producing consistently poor work.
What I tend to see much more often is people who hold a contest only to ignore or completely abandon it.Last edited by buzzfretz; Oct 31, 2006 at 19:06. Reason: sp
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Oct 31, 2006, 18:50 #86
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I don't think those rates are that low. After all, it's all about the hours you put in, and I do believe that 250$ for 2 productive hours is not bad at all, but that's just me.
And as for the "real world" remark, well I have been on this industry long enough to know how it works, and it IS the real World on the broader sense, like it or not.
the worth of a designer is measured by his work, not by his hourly rate.
I don't see the purpose of underrating the incredible value that CH's are getting from these contests and thats exactly what you do when you state that $250 is a good price. Doesn't do any of us, yourself or Sitepoint any good not to recognize the tremendous deal being offered. Its a steal period. Its contest holders who think its not a steal that will create the most problems for designers and contest holders who think it is a steal that will cause the contests to grow. The position is self defeating to your own success.
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Oct 31, 2006, 19:07 #87
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Originally Posted by Datura
I will grant that if you can pidgeon hole a previous design into a contest then you can get it done in two hours but sorry thats not going to be the case even in most contests. and given that $200 coded is the minimum alot of the times you are going to have to code and revise code to suit the customer. No to mention even after you win you have to do design revisions in most contests. and again for every one you get paid you will have four or more you won't. Its a steal. The maths don't lie. No use arguing it. Good too for Sitepoint because thats what makes it grow and thats one of the reasons I like it. You can see so many design needs in a small space and get your creative and problem solving skills going.
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Oct 31, 2006, 19:07 #88
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maginno, I wish I could have said it as good as you have... I agree with your points 100%.
Originally Posted by Matt Mickiewicz
Ack! I popped my head back into this thread! I was trying so hard not to say anything more! Shame on me!
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Oct 31, 2006, 19:14 #89
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Originally Posted by mhulse
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Oct 31, 2006, 19:24 #90
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Originally Posted by maginno
Another good point!!!
On a more serious note, I completely respect the fact that others like the contests... I definitely respect the technology.
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Oct 31, 2006, 19:29 #91
This proves my point...
Originally Posted by Matt Mickiewicz
The CH who offers $250 US for a coded page or $100 for a logo knows it's a good deal. On the other hand, in many parts of the world, $250 could feed, shelter and clothe a family for an entire month!. Why should these people be deprived of even a chance at the income?
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Oct 31, 2006, 19:30 #92
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Originally Posted by mhulse
But guys, take it or leave it. What the market will bear is just what somebody is willing to give in exchange, that goes for payment in your field, that goes for real estate, that goes for any trade. Money is a trade for services rendered. If a person values what you do you get a lot, if they do not or are ignorant or smart, they will give you little. Don't participate for low money, maybe the pay will increase if no person is willing to work for the offered price. A very self regulating system that is called a free market -- Datura
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Oct 31, 2006, 19:34 #93
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Originally Posted by bunnydojo
Originally Posted by Dan Schulz
Originally Posted by HAWK
Originally Posted by Varelse
A new button set to match the badges were discussed and developed a while back.
SitePoint know where I am if they want to find me.
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Oct 31, 2006, 19:41 #94
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Oct 31, 2006, 20:02 #95
Well my eyes have been opened a lot as far as the varied opinions about how "fair" (for lack of a better word) the contests are.
It reminds me of "swim at your own risk" - sometimes the water is cold and rough (demanding client, lower pay) and you need to be a great swimmer to be able to keep up and sometimes the water is warm and still like a Caribbean bay (the pay is solid and the client undemanding). Of course there is lots inbetween too.
If you throw in the fact that someone could spend a lot of time on an idea and have a better designer appropriate the idea and flesh it our better this seems to me to be kind of rough water - for those that are great swimmers perhaps not so bad though.
There is so much strategy to real branding beyond making a logo - it is the deliberation and brainstorming that is behind it that to me has near equivalent value to the actual artwork.
Very interesting discussion all.
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Oct 31, 2006, 20:09 #96
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Oct 31, 2006, 20:29 #97
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Originally Posted by buzzfretz
Originally Posted by buzzfretz
Originally Posted by maginno
Originally Posted by maginno
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Oct 31, 2006, 20:45 #98
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Having said that, there are serious issues with the current contest setup.
The one that bothers me the most is the lack of tools in place to prevent contest holders to simply run off without notice. Hopefully, in the next update actions will be taken to decrease this liability.
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Oct 31, 2006, 20:57 #99
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Originally Posted by Pedro Monteiro
I hardly believe that any professional designer entering a contest will put in the same hours he would in a regular project he was hired to do, you are assuming that contest designers approach these designs in the same manner they would a regular job
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Oct 31, 2006, 21:06 #100
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Originally Posted by Pedro Monteiro
In looking over the guidelines today I noticed a big change. The guidelines when I last checked them indicated that abandoning a contest was a bannable offense. that wording has been eliminated. There is now nothing in the guidelines that suggest ANY penalty for abandoning a contest (unless i missed it which is possible)
The coming system as announced here will actually make note of abandonments and when they do that will further announce to other contest holders looking at active contests that abandoning contests will not get you banned "(unless perhaps you get really outrageous.).
Why is Sitepoint so afraid of banning members who abandon contests? I don't understand it.
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