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  1. #51
    SitePoint Wizard Pedro Monteiro's Avatar
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    Hey there Paul!

    That's really crappy.

    Hey, contact me if you need some help on that one. If I get an opening later tonight I am willing to give you a helping hand free of charge.

    Best regards

  2. #52
    Non-Member buzzfretz's Avatar
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    Question Contest?

    A contest without a winner is not a contest--it's just a fishing expedition.

    I often get the feeling that by the time the contest has been posted and had several entries that the original contest holder (or their client) have long since abandoned the idea of even using an image or have found one elsewhere.

    My point is this: when it's so inexpensive to hold a contest in the first place people tend to place very little value on the time spent by the entrants.

  3. #53
    In memoriam gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Schulz's Avatar
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    The people have spoken, Sitepoint .

  4. #54
    SitePoint Wizard Pedro Monteiro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buzzfretz
    A contest without a winner is not a contest--it's just a fishing expedition.

    I often get the feeling that by the time the contest has been posted and had several entries that the original contest holder (or their client) have long since abandoned the idea of even using an image or have found one elsewhere.

    My point is this: when it's so inexpensive to hold a contest in the first place people tend to place very little value on the time spent by the entrants.
    Fair enough, but if there has to be a winner it's not a contest either, it's a hiring. Besides, why would the contest holder be obliged to pick a winner? What if there was one sole entry that was completely amateurish and off Target? Would the contest holder be obliged to pick a winner?

  5. #55
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro Monteiro
    Fair enough, but if there has to be a winner it's not a contest either, it's a hiring. Besides, why would the contest holder be obliged to pick a winner? What if there was one sole entry that was completely amateurish and off Target? Would the contest holder be obliged to pick a winner?
    IMO he would not. These contests really are like a job interview, an application. No way the contest holder should be stuck with a bad piece of work. Sometimes the holder of the competition is lacking the capacity to judge properly as well, then all the good design in the world would not appeal to him. I think the only valid procedure is that the contest holder has the right to accept or reject, but he should be required to give an explanation why -- Datura
    Ulrike
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  6. #56
    ~Design Contests Freak~ khuldun's Avatar
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    Of course he is not entitled to pick if he doesnt like something. BUT that has to be stated in the contest description first so that people enter ont heir own risk and also the CH should clearly come forward and state no entry was a winner and hence the contest closes without a winner.

    BUT i think there should be atleast a consolation prize for the top entry of the lot.
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  7. #57
    SitePoint Wizard Pedro Monteiro's Avatar
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    I don't agree with the consolidation prizes at all. I do agree however that a reason should be forwarded if no winner is chosen.

  8. #58
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    No consolation prize in my view as well. Life does not hand out candy, nor should a dissatisfied client -- Datura
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  9. #59
    .* draziW tnioPetiS *. bronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by SG1
    That's a new one, Mickey. I'll have to remember that.
    Looks like "Design promiscuity" might be the better wording.

    Prostitution was the first thing that came to my mind. Hehe.

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzfretz
    My point is this: when it's so inexpensive to hold a contest in the first place people tend to place very little value on the time spent by the entrants.
    Very good point. I could not have said it better myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by maginno
    Understand the sentiment but don't quite get the metaphor. Don't we all get paid to do it - I mean design. Perhaps design promiscuity? No level of commitment needed.
    Lol, very true... I like promiscuity. Lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzfretz
    Try being a musician!
    LOL!
    Ooooh, I bet!!!

    I am guessing lead singers deal with it the best though...

    ...

    Personal biases aside, the new system looks good.

  10. #60
    ~Design Contests Freak~ khuldun's Avatar
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    There has to be atleast some reward for the designers who spent the time in there. And who says the consolation prize needs to be the same the intial declared, it can just be a minimal amount
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  11. #61
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khuldun
    There has to be atleast some reward for the designers who spent the time in there. And who says the consolation prize needs to be the same the intial declared, it can just be a minimal amount
    Why? When you bid a job in the real world you never get a reward unless you actually get the job. Those proposals can eat you alive sometimes. It is up to you to judge your own capacity to fulfill the requirements of the contest at hand and go for it at your own risk. It is a system of merit, not tenure or some such artificial pay for a job not quite done to the contest stagers satisfaction.

    I also hear people complaining about the low pay. I agree, but if you do not want to do a job for such money, do not participate unless you take on the contest as a personal challenge to learn from it or in hopes to get more out of it later down the road or to build your reputation -- Datura
    Ulrike
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  12. #62
    In memoriam gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Schulz's Avatar
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    No there doesn't. Entering a contest is not a guarantee that you'll be compensated. After all, if everyone got something, it wouldn't be a contest, now would it?

  13. #63
    SitePoint Wizard Pedro Monteiro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Datura
    Why? When you bid a job in the real world you never get a reward unless you actually get the job. Those proposals can eat you alive sometimes. It is up to you to judge your own capacity to fulfill the requirements of the contest at hand and go for it at your own risk. It is a system of merit, not tenure or some such artificial pay for a job not quite done to the contest stagers satisfaction.

    I also hear people complaining about the low pay. I agree, but if you do not want to do a job for such money, do not participate unless you take on the contest as a personal challenge to learn from it or in hopes to get more out of it later down the road or to build your reputation -- Datura
    Precisely!

    This is precisely the nature of the contest. If you can't handle the risk, either don't participate or just go to the "looking for Hire" forum.

  14. #64
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    I can see Khuldon's point without totally agreeing. have you ever seen a talent contest where the contest prize was held because no one was entertaining? Risk doesn't have to be just the designers to hold. We actually have Contest holders who guarantee a winner and I've yet to see any recently that didn't get good designs the CH was happy with. Still it isn't going to happen Khuldun. It would reduce the amount of contest run on Sitepoint.

  15. #65
    <code></code><WoW></WoW> nukeemusn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khuldun
    There has to be atleast some reward for the designers who spent the time in there. And who says the consolation prize needs to be the same the intial declared, it can just be a minimal amount
    The only way I'd go for that is if I was trying to use the contests as my only source of income. But that would be foolish of me, now, wouldn't it?

    As was stated by others, contests are there for personal challenge. If you don't want to do it potentially for free, then don't enter. Personally, I haven't won a single contest, but I'm still going to enter them. Why? Because I'm always growing as a designer. And if I do win? That's just gravy. I'll be ecstatic. I'll probably spend the prize money on beer. But if I don't? Then (with adequate feedback), I might have learned something new. Wheter I learn what TO do or what NOT to do, lessons like that are worth more than prize money. Because the only other way to learn like that is to actually hunt down clients and do a lot of proposal work. And that is likely to cost you more than entering a simple contest.

    And if my idea gets stolen? Bummer. BUT, as it has been said by someone a long time ago, "It is better to be stolen from than to need to steal." So it's a loss. But at least I know I'm good enough to steal from.
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  16. #66
    SitePoint Wizard Pedro Monteiro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maginno
    I can see Khuldon's point without totally agreeing. have you ever seen a talent contest where the contest prize was held because no one was entertaining? Risk doesn't have to be just the designers to hold. We actually have Contest holders who guarantee a winner and I've yet to see any recently that didn't get good designs the CH was happy with. Still it isn't going to happen Khuldun. It would reduce the amount of contest run on Sitepoint.
    But it's, there is a contest opening fee. There is also no assurance that the contest holder will find any of the designs good enough.

  17. #67
    .* draziW tnioPetiS *. bronze trophy
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    "Brand my company" for $100 - $150... it might be great for the winner, but I look at it in terms of the CH... What a freaking deal! 50 comps for an end price of $150... plus a design of choice.... Nah, something about that gives me a bad taste in my mouth...

    Do you think John J. Graham took only $100 for his logo/brandings? --> Maybe a bad argument to make in this case... Maybe I am not the best person to be making this argument... But I do think there is an argument to be made here....

    Anyway, that might be great for those of you who need the "rep", or "connections", or "practice"... I know I need those things too... I guess I deal with BS from clients expecting so much for so little in the real world, I would like to avoid that same BS it in the virtual world.

    Quesiton: So, does SP get a cut of the contest money?

    EDIT: Speaking of "rep", or "connections", or "practice"... why not spend time posting tutorials to the SP tutorial forums?

  18. #68
    ~Design Contests Freak~ khuldun's Avatar
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    Talking about the real world example. Well, we have it here on the web too. Dont we have full time designers? Dont we have permanent employment hiring here at Sitepoint? Design COntests are different, where mostly, web dev companies outsource their design work for almost a tenth of the actual price they get from the client. They get to plavce it in their portfolio too, whats in for the contestants.... peanuts? Even in the real world example, when you go for an interview, you get TA/DA. Can't really see why you are being so offensive on a petty issue? $25-$30 just for someones effort and time is nothing.
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  19. #69
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhulse
    "Brand my company" for $100 - $150... it might be great for the winner, but I look at it in terms of the CH... What a freaking deal! 50 comps for an end price of $150... plus a design of choice.... Nah, something about that gives me a bad taste in my mouth...

    Do you think John J. Graham took only $100 for his logo/brandings? --> Maybe a bad argument to make in this case... Maybe I am not the best person to be making this argument... But I do think there is an argument to be made here....
    No, he did not. But he established himself in a time when logo making was in full bloom, crafted designs that make the mouth water. Today, because of the ease to get into the designing of such things with software programs, a lot of diluted and frankly crappie work is hocked as professional stuff. The average customer does not recognize the difference, hence the low pay for the "professional" designer -- Datura
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  20. #70
    SitePoint Wizard Pedro Monteiro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhulse
    Quesiton: So, does SP get a cut of the contest money?
    They get the entry fee, that's it.

    It's all down to choice. The designers are not obliged to participate in any way!
    And I don't know where you are getting the idea that the contest prizes are always unjust.

    Recently I have seen contest for a blog design with coding for $2000. Isn't that a good deal?

    Isn't $250 a good for a template design that already has all the branding it needs?

    I have contest with very high prizes and others with lower prizes, it's up too me if I want to participate or not.

  21. #71
    .* draziW tnioPetiS *. bronze trophy
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    @Datura: Thanks for clarifying.

    I am a big fan of contemporary art and design. That was my fav subject in college.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro Monteiro
    They get the entry fee, that's it.
    Ah, ok. Well, I guess they need to pay for the site in some way... why not via contests...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro Monteiro
    It's all down to choice. The designers are not obliged to participate in any way! And I don't know where you are getting the idea that the contest prizes are always unjust.
    I did not say that... er, well, kinda I guess. I meant to say that contest prizes can be great for the winner... i.e. $150 for a logo is a decent price for my town.... what clients expect these days it seems (read Datura's post above for more insight.)

    I look at the entries as "comps"... comps = time... some comps took more time and are better than others... The CH, or client (at the end of the contest) usually has a lot to choose from. They choose one and spend approx $150 and walk away happy. Maybe I am a noob... I know I suck at business... but I do not think it is right for someone to come along, slap down $100 - $150 and get a ka-zillion comps.

    Maybe I am not able to clearly state my reasons why. Heck, if you do not see my point of view, that is fine. I am not being very clear... just something about the whole system that (imho) stinks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro Monteiro
    Recently I have seen contest for a blog design with coding for $2000. Isn't that a good deal?
    For the winner, sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro Monteiro
    Isn't $250 a good for a template design that already has all the branding it needs?
    For the winner, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro Monteiro
    I have contest with very high prizes and others with lower prizes, it's up too me if I want to participate or not.
    I hear that. And I choose not to participate because I think the system is flawed.

    Is SP truly a neutral party in all of this? I wonder how much they make yearly off of contests... it must be something to make it worth the upgrade.

    EDIT: Who here wants to help me start-up the SitePoint Contest Union?

    I do not mean to offend, just needed to vent, and this thread seemed like a good place to start.

  22. #72
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    "As was stated by others, contests are there for personal challenge. If you don't want to do it potentially for free, then don't enter."


    Sorry George but thats one of those kinds of things people say and everyone nods their head knowingly without thinking but are all wrong. Its all PC (is it politically correct here or professionally correct? ). If there was even an ounce of truth to it then tell me - Why does everyone here know that if there were no prizes the contest section would dry up in no time and only be filled with a lot of nonsense?

    Its not really a matter of living off it. Having won a few it does come in handy as some secondary income and its a great way to build a portfolio. As a matter of fact I do know of one designer that is using contests to help see their family through a rough spot with (I believe) a spouse out of work. I use the cash to help out with some sites I am working on that I fully intend will be my bread and butter down the road. Its not all personal development.

  23. #73
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Yes, Micky, you have that choice and that is good. But just look at a lot of the really young people here that try to bite their teeth a little bit. It is a great opportunity to work in a semi professional way and learn. The learning itself is part of the pay to them. It is a wonderful way to dip that toe in, both sides benefit.

    I do not think these contests will pull in top notch people on either side, but some person might participate on a lark, some will benefit tremendously. Then they can go out and get the money that they deserve, but not necessarily get because of the facts stated above in my post #69 -- Datura
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  24. #74
    .* draziW tnioPetiS *. bronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by maginno
    ...everyone here know that if there were no prizes the contest section would dry up in no time and only be filled with a lot of nonsense?
    Heh. If I am understanding you POV, I agree. That is why I added this to one of my previous posts:

    Quote Originally Posted by mhulse
    EDIT: Speaking of "rep", or "connections", or "practice"... why not spend time posting tutorials to the SP tutorial forums?
    Seems like one could get the same level of fullfillment posting tuts and giving back to the community.

  25. #75
    .* draziW tnioPetiS *. bronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Datura
    Yes, Micky, you have that choice and that is good. But just look at a lot of the really young people here that try to bite their teeth a little bit. It is a great opportunity to work in a semi professional way and learn. The learning itself is part of the pay to them. It is a wonderful way to dip that toe in, both sides benefit.
    Sure. But then the pro's come along and beat them all!

    I just do not like it. I could use all the things mentioned myself... I am no pro... I can use the practice... I can use the portfolio items... all of that good stuff.

    Something deep inside me says it is wrong. The contests have been something that has bugged me for many weeks now - one aspect of SP I do not like.

    Anyway, I am not very good at arguing points... so I should probably crawl back into my hole now...

    Thanks for the response D, always enjoy reading your posts.
    EDIT: Btw, nice new avatar... neat design.

    Have a good day.
    Cheers,
    Micky


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