WTC fire extingushed.

[Ian Glass]

That's right, the subterranean fires at the World Trade Center site are finally out -- after about three months of burning.

The expected death toll from the WTC collapse has also been steadying decreasing from it's high at over 6,700 right after the attacks to about 3,000 today.

[Winged Spider]

That's nice to see, but with a number that's half it's original size, you have to wonder what was a obvious calculation and what was really propaganda.

[Ian Glass]

I don't think any of that was propaganda. Those buildings alone held over 50,000 people (slightly smaller than the town I live in). It was the beginning of the workday, so not everyone had arrived at that time. And, a lot of people were separated from their families then and had no way to contact them since phone service was down.

On top of that, different organizations held different tallies. As the lists were merged the number of suspected dead dropped dramatically. It's not uncommon for the actual death toll to be much less than first estimates. I remember after the Olympics bombing, the news was reporting some 200 people -- the actual count was 2. And in an area that large, I would think it's an incredibly difficult feat to forecast things like that.

[Technosailor]

Don't get me started, Winged. Why the hell would we propagandize the World Trade Center attack? Would it somehow satisfy our need to further the pain of the families who lost people there? Does it somehow put us "on top of the heap" as it were that we have more deaths in a single incident than....whatever whatever? I don't understand why anyone would propagandize such an awful event. There's no point in it. There's obvious arguments for propagandizing the war, but the WTC??? Give me a break! That's insane. Those buildings were the 4th largest structure in the world. As Ian said, there's 50,000 people who work there! It's fortunate that there weren't more than 6,000 people missing. If it hadn't been 9AM when people were still getting to work, there could have been alot more. There is an accounting for people who work there, and the individual companies know who their employees are. The 6,000 people were people who were missing after Sept 11. It's not hard to figure out who's missing....and it's completely insensitive to insinuate it was propaganda. That's like saying George W. Bush arranged for this to happen so he could get a public relations boost in the polls. Completely asinine.

<stepping down from my soapbox>
Sketch

[TheOriginalH]

Oh here we go - someone ventures a perfectly valid speculation and is shouted down for being insensitive - by the same people that joyously celebrated the bombings which will leave millions in a state of uncertainty / poverty for years to come and has cost the lives of thousands of innocents. I do not know whether propoganda was involved or not, and frankly I don't care, but as to why - I would think that's obvious. There is plenty of precedent from most countries on issues like this - the US very much included.

edit - Winged's profile reveals his birthplace... He is not removed from the situation, yet he is willing to speculate. His post was not accusatory, or insensitive, it was a legitimate point.


- on a more positive note, its very good news about the fire.

[Ian Glass]

Originally posted by TheOriginalH
someone ventures a perfectly valid speculation and is shouted down for being insensitive - by the same people that joyously celebrated the bombings which will leave millions in a state of uncertainty / poverty for years to come and has cost the lives of thousands of innocents.

I suppose by "people," you're including me.

Frankly, I don't consider it a valid speculation because there is no evidence what so ever to indicated a padding of the death tolls. Idle speculation is as harmful as it is useless, and I see no reason why I shouldn't try and debunk it. That, in particular, is an allegation of serious consequence.

As much as it seems to be popular to find fault in everything America does (especially overseas), there really isn't much to find in this case. There hasn't been any indication that the US government has lied during whole of the Afghan campaign. When there is, it'll more productive to discuss and speculate about US transgressions then.

As for "people that joyously celebrated the bombings which will leave millions in a state of uncertainty / poverty for years to come and has cost the lives of thousands of innocents," that just pissed me off. Not only is it inaccurate and inappropriate, but it's also prejudicial and bigoted. I know of very few -- read that again -- very few people who celebrated the beginning of the campaign. War is not something we undertake lightly, but is something we do with great care. And, lets not forget that war was waged on us.

I'll address the individual inaccuracies, now: First, "will leave millions in a state of uncertainty / poverty" is totally unfounded. The Taliban were an organization more intent on growing poppies instead of wheat -- of course the people are starving, they were before.

Secondly, when was the last time that you heard of one country giving aid to another country it was at war with? I think we have made it most clear with our words and our actions that we're not fighting a war against the people of Afghanistan -- in fact, we would have never expelled the Taliban if it were not for the support of the people of Afghanistan.

Next, "for years to come" is equally unfounded. The Afghan people are sure to get substantial amounts of aid (primarily from the US, I might add) in the coming months and years. The UN is sending in peacekeeping forces soon and a new government is set to be established. Will there be setbacks? Most certainly, but I don't think any of those will compare to being set back by a thousand years.

Lastly, "has cost the lives of thousands of innocents" is just plain untrue. Where are you getting your facts? You should really consider an alternate source. If you insist that you perception is true, than prove it. However, when you do cite your sources, don't link to a 'innocent victim' holding an assault riffle.

[Renegade]

I am with Ian Glass. Well put

Innocents live in towns, we bombed military installations. Civilians live in villages, we destroyed AA guns and rockets. The people of afg do not live in caves, mountains or bunkers-which were our targets. No, but the taliban do.

Why can't you see the difference between a soldier and a civilian? There is a difference you know. Thousands might have been killed ... true...we may never know, but they were MILITARY NOT CIVILIANS. sheesh.

The sooner you stop blaming America for all of the worlds problems, the better off you'll be.

by the same people that joyously celebrated the bombings which will leave millions in a state of uncertainty / poverty for years to come and has cost the lives of thousands of innocents.

Lies propoganda and B.S. If the people of Kabul were really depressed, why were they all cheering for the anti-taliban fighters when they entered the city? Why did women start removing their cloaks and men start shaving? Yeah, sounds like they are very unhappy to me.

[TheOriginalH]

Frankly Ian, I don't care enough about the issue to reply any more. - That's not a cop out, I posted to defend Winged's statement, did, and that's all I have to say.

[Ian Glass]

Originally posted by TheOriginalH
...I posted to defend Winged's statement, did, and that's all I have to say.

That may well be, but I'd appreciate it if the next time you defend some point of view, first check it's validity, and then don't attack others while doing it. I don't enjoy being referred to as someone who "joyously celebrated the bombings which will leave millions in a state of uncertainty / poverty." That's not me; that's not my point of view.

[Technosailor]

what? You don't find it insensitive to speculate about the existence of propaganda surrounding events that caused so many people to die? Whether it's 3000 or 6000, it's still insensitive to speculate about whether it's propaganda. I wonder at the stark contrast within the same people who whine and cry about the Afghani "plight" (if there is a such thing) but yet turn around and speculate about whether there is propaganda involved in one of the world's largest mass graves. Is it just because you don't want to believe that the US has the right to see to it that justice is done in Afghanistan? Or is it the lack of respect for the right of America to defend it's soveriegnty. I wonder what would happen if there were a terrorist bombing that would bring down London's largest commercial office building. What would be the outcry if the roles were reversed and multiple thousands of British civilians were massacred. What would be the outcry if I arrogantly defended the terrorists and tried to be a stumbling block to Britain's right to defense and to see justice done? These are things I wonder. Why is it that the world (not the leaders of the world, but the general population) has so trivialized 6000 deaths that it's more important to argue the merits of whether we should "love" the terrorists to justice or should seek to avenge the deaths of our countrymen. Sheesh.
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[Winged Spider]

I'm just very worried about what's going on right now.

More speculations for people to get angry about:

So far I haven't seen any "proof" that it was Bin Laden, or even Arabs in particular.

All the information released so far has been by the US government. No secondary information sources have provided any information about the attacks.

For some reason the destruction Financial Data servers in the World Trade didn't even phase the market.

Gas prices are lower than I remember, and we just happen to have our army camped next to the biggest oil refineries of the world.

The FBI knew about these attacks months before.
If you know that your country's economy was going into a recession a war would be too convenient.

Oops I forgot, were not at war. We just gave our president unlimited "temporary" powers.

The Anti-Terroism Bill takes away more of our freedom's than any other bill passed ever. Even computer crime could be considered terrorism. The government will gain the power to watch our every move.
Freedom? What's that?

Did you know that we are bombing without even caring what our inventories are? Defense Contractors?

How did Cuba and North Korea end up on our "countries to bomb" list?

My buddy stationed in Afgan told me that he hasn't seen an Arabic person, let alone shot at one yet.
I think our government remembers what happens once the body bags start rolling in. Fake Wars + Dead Americans = Public Protest.

Remember the news being on 24/7?
Who do you think paid for that?

The stock trading days before the attacks was going to be investigated. Now it's completely dropped. Wouldn't that be a real clue on who's behind this?

Remember we funded the Taliban, we created them.
Ooops gotta clean up our messes now.

I'm just trying to open some minds to new ideas. I try and be as un-opinionated as I can be about this subject, but I can't help thinking that we are missing a big piece of the picture. Some things aren't adding up right.

I am officially stating that my involvement with this issue on these boards is over. Some call me insensitive, others a radical. I call myself a realist.

[Ian Glass]

I'll address as many as I can:

So far I haven't seen any "proof" that it was Bin Laden, or even Arabs in particular.

What are you looking for: a confession? Oh, yeah, we got that...

All the information released so far has been by the US government. No secondary information sources have provided any information about the attacks.

Actually no, there have been many incidences where private news agencies (not just American) have found compelling evidence and information.

For some reason the destruction Financial Data servers in the World Trade didn't even phase the market.

First of all, you really don't expect them not to have backups, do you? Second, remember the markets had a few days off at the beginning.

Gas prices are lower than I remember, and we just happen to have our army camped next to the biggest oil refineries of the world.

I don't exactly know what's going on there, but I think we scared the crap out of Saudi Arabia. The rest of OPEC had to follow suit.

The FBI knew about these attacks months before.
If you know that your country's economy was going into a recession a war would be too convenient.

I don't think FBI knew about these attacks. Hell, half the attackers didn't know about these attacks.

Oops I forgot, were not at war. We just gave our president unlimited "temporary" powers.

From my understanding, we are, but I still don't like the amount of power Bush has seized.

The Anti-Terrorism Bill takes away more of our freedom's than any other bill passed ever. Even computer crime could be considered terrorism. The government will gain the power to watch our every move.
Freedom? What's that?

I don't know how accurate a statement, "more fredomes than any other bill passed ever," is. But, you're right the Patriot Act is anything but patriotic. You'll get no argument from me about the Patriot Act being bad.

Did you know that we are bombing without even caring what our inventories are? Defense Contractors?

The United States has a tremendous arsenal. But, you're right, the contractors are probably having to put in a lot of overtime.

How did Cuba and North Korea end up on our "countries to bomb" list?

I have no idea. They were just on the list of countries that we don't like before the attacks, I think. It's a shame.

Remember the news being on 24/7?
Who do you think paid for that?

I think the looses for the networks ranged in the billions.

The stock trading days before the attacks was going to be investigated. Now it's completely dropped. Wouldn't that be a real clue on who's behind this?

What ever that refers to has probably been superceded by the death of 3000 people. There's probably still an investigation going on, you're just not going to see it on the front page -- look to section d-6.

Remember we funded the Taliban, we created them.
Ooops gotta clean up our messes now.

Actually, I think it was the Pakistani IIS that backed them after the original provisional government crumbled. We helped fund the IIS.

I think that about covers it, right?

~~Have a Good Day :-)

[Michel V]

Just a word about propaganda, are the millions of dead iraqi children a propaganda-generated number ?
See, some people here think it is, and expressed it so when faced with it.
Now, nobody jumped on their back and call them insensitive.

[OneChance]

Gas prices are lower than I remember...

I believe you can thank Russia for some of that. Not all of our oil comes from the Middle East.

The FBI knew about these attacks months before.

I'm sure the FBI is aware of a lot of potential attacks at any given time. But they can't stop all of them.

Did you know that we are bombing without even caring what our inventories are?

Haven't heard about that. Cite? And frankly, if this were true I don't think the govt would disclose such information.

My buddy stationed in Afgan told me that he hasn't seen an Arabic person, let alone shot at one yet. I think our government remembers what happens once the body bags start rolling in. Fake Wars + Dead Americans = Public Protest.

What's your point? Because your alleged buddy hasn't seen anyone to shoot at, this war is fake? Gee, sounds logical to me.

I won't bother responding to your other questions or comments due to their ridiculousness. Where do you get some of your information from, National Enquirer?