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  1. #51
    You Bet Your Life...Really lerxtjr's Avatar
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    Sorry if I'm duplicating comments here as I read only the first few posts of this thread and started throwing things at my wall in disgust and jumped to the end to add a comment. I have 4 contracted developers that work for me (and am always on the lookout for more).

    If you want to hire a good contractor, forget about credentials, references, years of experience, and looking over his shoulder as he pounds out something in Notepad in your presence! Good grief! You'll pay out the wazoo for someone that will meet your expectation!!

    Better to find someone that has the passion for trying new things. Someone that is in it for the experience of building and creating. One of the best 'developers' I have is a 17-year-old that I've never met...or even talked to on the phone for that matter. We just IM our project details. No wait, he just turned 18, sorry.

    You just have to be a little more patient and a little more broad in your testing to make sure things are the way you want them. There are tons of highly skilled developers out there that are willing to not rob you blind. To find the developer you're looking for, start with a small project and work your way up. Maybe a component of a larger project. Be careful.

  2. #52
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    just dedication and hardwork are the main qualifications.

    Thanks
    trademaster.biz Ad Marketing strategy

  3. #53
    SitePoint Enthusiast dnectom's Avatar
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    The problem with certifications is that the web is being updated every single day and so a certification can mean something one day but very little the next...
    It would be almost impossible to keep up with
    Dave

  4. #54
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    One thing that you have to remember is that the IT industry is still in its infancy and web development is one of the younger areas of IT. When I got started working in computers back in the late 1970 there wasn't ANY sort of computer related degree around at all. Anyone who has been working in web development for even a short time is unlikely to have a degree with any web development content at all and anyonwe who has been in IT for over 20 years is unlikely to have a degree at all as actual work experience counted for 99+% of what employers were looking for back then and a degree counted for less than nothing (because it meant that you spent several years studying when you could have been working in some clerical job in a company with computers waiting for the opportunity to get an internal transfer).
    Stephen J Chapman

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  5. #55
    SitePoint Addict bwdow's Avatar
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    Main skill of a web developer is being clever. Web developer must to have a big brain
    Also "able to learn" function is very important

  6. #56
    SitePoint Evangelist artcoder's Avatar
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    You have have the cadidate take a Brainbench.com test. They have tests on HTML, CSS, Javascript, etc. These are paid tests, so you might have to re-imburse the candidate for the price.

  7. #57
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy DaveWoods's Avatar
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    I agree with Dan and am suprised at some of the comments here regarding valid code... yes it's easy and quick to validate your code but surely that's the point?

    If somebody can't validate their code or be bothered to correct any problems with it, then it goes to reason that they won't be bothered for other projects.

    Speaking from a personal point of view on qualifications... I completed a college course on web design about 6 years ago which covered nothing to do with accessibility, usability or even the basics of CSS. Everything that I have learnt has been whilst I've been employed which I've found much more valuable than any course.

  8. #58
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluedreamer
    That would sort the men from the boys!
    <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">
    <html />

    ...I'm a MAN!

  9. #59
    Working on it... Contrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teampl4y4
    <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">
    <html />

    ...I'm a MAN!
    Dude...
    What is "<html />" ???

    Secondly...you can't validate a page without a <head> opening tag and a </head> closing tag.

    Thirdly...you can't validate a page wihtout an openening <html> tag.

    ...atleast you got the DOCTYPE right. (depending on what you are doing).
    And so I got lost in code...completely asphyxiated by it...

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  10. #60
    Avid Logophile silver trophy
    ParkinT's Avatar
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    I have not seen anyone mention a VERY IMPORTANT aspect when searching for a contractor of any kind: References.
    When I want complex (or expensive) work done on my house I speak with several current customers.
    Yes, any good business will only offer you their 'best' customers as references, but in many cases having even ONE is challenge for them.
    This separates, quickly, those who have "satisfactorily met customer's expectations" regardless of technical talent.
    Afterall, isn't all business *really* about satisfying the customer?
    Don't be yourself. Be someone a little nicer. -Mignon McLaughlin, journalist and author (1913-1983)


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  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by teampl4y4
    <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">
    <html />

    ...I'm a MAN!
    You need a <title>
    And besides, a real man wouldn't use a transitional DTD :P
    "Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what
    it might appear to others that what you were or might
    have been was not otherwise than what you had been
    would have appeared to them to be otherwise."

  12. #62
    Working on it... Contrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eldacar
    You need a <title>
    And besides, a real man wouldn't use a transitional DTD :P
    Could you please explain the DTD part of your post ?

    ...and yes...he needs a <title>, but he can't declare a <title> without a <head>
    And so I got lost in code...completely asphyxiated by it...

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  13. #63
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    Authors should use the Strict DTD unless they need the
    presentation control for user agents that don't (adequately)
    support style sheets.
    Straight from the Transitional DTD. (Well from the HTML4.01 DTD, but the XHTML1.0 DTD says "This is the same as HTML 4 Transitional except for changes due to the differences between XML and SGML.")
    Unless you're using frames and need target attributes, I can't think of a good reason to use the transitional DTD.
    "Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what
    it might appear to others that what you were or might
    have been was not otherwise than what you had been
    would have appeared to them to be otherwise."

  14. #64
    Working on it... Contrid's Avatar
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    What are you trying to say?
    Are you using HTML 2.0 ?
    And so I got lost in code...completely asphyxiated by it...

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  15. #65
    SitePoint Addict
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    What I'm trying to say is that a professional should use a strict DTD. Transitional DTDs were designed for legacy documents, not new documents.
    "Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what
    it might appear to others that what you were or might
    have been was not otherwise than what you had been
    would have appeared to them to be otherwise."

  16. #66
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  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Schulz
    Check to make sure they are skilled and proficient in (X)HTML, CSS, JavaScript, your server-side programming language and database of choice; cross-browser compatability issues, usability, and accessibility.

    Literally sit them down in front of a computer, give them a text editor (just to make things even worse, give them Notepad) and tell them to belt out a complete, 100% valid, semantic and warning-free Web page.

    For graphics, find out what graphics program they use, then sit them down and have them create the layout for your site.

    Keep in mind this is the "final" stage of the selection process.

    What about before then?

    Well, you have to check their business references, before you even do anything, of course. Also take a look at their portfolio. If the sites they have in their portfolios appear to be visually stunning, but the HTML doesn't even validate, then thank them for their time and show them the door. Same thing if their code is not semantic, or even formatted properly.

    If the HTML does validate, check their CSS for errors and warnings. Again, if any show up, thank them for their time and show them the door.

    Finally, if the (X)HTML and CSS do validate, check their JavaScript. Any errors, well, I'm sure you know the drill by now.

    Yeah, I'm hard. I have to be. These are the standards I set myself to. Theyr'e also the standards I think we ALL should aspire to. The longer we let sloppy code exist on the Web, the harder it's going to be for us to improve our skills, while also showing those who follow in our footsteps that such bad practices are not only acceptable, but the proper way to do things.
    That's a pretty idiotic way to eliminate a lot of really great web developers

    - Most of the js written is never going to be "error free". If it doesn't pass jslint, then it's crap. If it *does* pass jsLint, you can ignore everything else because they probably know what they're doing.

    - Validators are going to complain about attributes like "autocomplete" and "rel" being "non-standard". Guess what? They're necessary in many situations.

    - warnings or errors in the CSS? Christ, I hope you never have to support IE. If a web developer doesn't know the easiest way to fix 99% of IE problems (using the non-standard zoom: property), then you shouldn't be hiring them. But this will make their CSS fail to validate.

  18. #68
    EllisDesign cybadelic's Avatar
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    Personnally, I'd separate the graphics from the (dynamic) code. I wouldn't expect a web developper to be both a graphics genius and a code wizard (by code I mean dynamic stuff like PHP, ASP, Perl, JS etc.). The reason is fairly simple: They're two completely different fields, and usually (!) a tech freak is not a very visual person, and a graphics freak doesn't like the dryness of coding. At least according to my experience. If I (designer) get a request for a quote, I first ask a bunch of programmers I know how much they would charge, then I'd design the web site (includin html and CSS) and the programmer does all the MySQL and PHP mumbo jumbo. I just can't stand programming

    My 0.02
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  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by cybadelic
    I wouldn't expect a web developper to be both a graphics genius and a code wizard (by code I mean dynamic stuff like PHP, ASP, Perl, JS etc.).
    I agree completely. If you have a techie do your website, you'll end up with a website that looks like a techie did it. A web design is exactly that, a "design". If money is not an issue I would suggest that you find a professional graphic designer (they usually have a nice portfolio that you can look over) and have them design for you that perfect website. Then when that's done you can find a techie with a super duper techie degree with reference to prove and have him/her code the site for you and turn it into a working website.

    The simple pages of google are not an accident. They were thought out and designed by visual pros.

  20. #70
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    Hi All,

    I'm new to the forum.
    I would have to agree with csswiz on this (and disagree with feros - many posts ago), as I believe that if you are a proficient developer, the whole coding / validation / css should be good too.
    Going back to the original web development qualifications; it should be fairly obvious that when visiting the personal site of a developer - assuming they have one, as so many do - that they have either taken pride in what they have done, or not.
    From my experience this theory tends to hold true.

    Regards,

    Matt
    http://www.greenwood-media.co.uk

  21. #71
    Community Advisor ULTiMATE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cybadelic
    Personnally, I'd separate the graphics from the (dynamic) code. I wouldn't expect a web developper to be both a graphics genius and a code wizard (by code I mean dynamic stuff like PHP, ASP, Perl, JS etc.). The reason is fairly simple: They're two completely different fields, and usually (!) a tech freak is not a very visual person, and a graphics freak doesn't like the dryness of coding. At least according to my experience. If I (designer) get a request for a quote, I first ask a bunch of programmers I know how much they would charge, then I'd design the web site (includin html and CSS) and the programmer does all the MySQL and PHP mumbo jumbo. I just can't stand programming

    My 0.02
    So if two people are working together on a webite, what does the techie' do while the designer is busy designing? He'll probably sit around for a while waiting for a site to code, wasting your money. Vice versa, what does a designer do when the site is designed?

    If you can hire Web Developers who can design AND code then I definately would. This would allow for a smaller team that would understand a website from all aspects. This way a smaller team of designers/developers could probably design the graphics and page, code the frontend and the backend easily and more efficiently.

    In the software industry nowadays (apparently, from what I heard from a speaker who came into uni to address working in industry), a lot of companies are using much smaller teams of people who are skilled in everything. This allows for analysis, design, development, testing and everything else to be done quicker and time to be spent more efficiently. If this is so, why can't it be used in Web Design/Development?

  22. #72
    Twitter - @CarlBeckel busy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Contrid
    Dude...
    What is "<html />" ???

    Secondly...you can't validate a page without a <head> opening tag and a </head> closing tag.

    Thirdly...you can't validate a page wihtout an openening <html> tag.

    ...atleast you got the DOCTYPE right. (depending on what you are doing).
    I'm assuming he meant <html /> to be a joke. In XHTML a tag like that is self closing (it serves as the opening and closing tag) and is used for tags like <br /> to pass validation. The joke was that he's not going to write out everything inside the HTML tag, since we all know what's in there anyways. (Like title tags, etc...)

    I think the post was referring to a previous one that said it should be a requirement to belt out a doctype from memory. (I'm kind of impressed if he did, because I sure as hell can't!)

  23. #73
    SitePoint Zealot Organic.Seeds's Avatar
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    Hire someone with passion and a brain. If they have the drive and the "talent" (ability to grow and take input) then that is who I would hire. Having passion is a tall order. I've known many developers and some just don't have the heart to care about what they are producing. I would rather pay for a self motivated individual then someone with all the knowledge and/or official degrees but no goals on how they are going to make what they are doing better or new each time.
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  24. #74
    EllisDesign cybadelic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ULTiMATE
    So if two people are working together on a webite, what does the techie' do while the designer is busy designing? He'll probably sit around for a while waiting for a site to code, wasting your money. Vice versa, what does a designer do when the site is designed?
    Hi there,

    I was hoping for a reply like this, because I want to clarify a few things about how the designer/developper co-operation can work.

    I am a freelance web designer. People contact me and want a quote. So what goes in that quote? Only time actually spent working on the project. Wich means that the company who hires me doesn't have to worry about a bored coder, because they won't even know about it. And anyway: In every single web site project I have done so far, my coders were never bored, because we work together on the project, not in turns, at least 85% of the time.

    My experience is just that the all-in-one design/code developper guru genius is a very, very rare species, and if you find one, they're very expensive. Often a lot more expensive and sometimes even less productive than a graphics/code-team. Why? Because I can only work for 4 hours/day on one single client, because otherwise I get sloppy and bored of the project. So even if I could technically code, I wouldn't do it because I'd just lose my "drive" and my concentration. Two people could work on the project full time at maximum efficiency. It's a bit like the Ford model, the assembly line model. Just a bit though. Split up the work for higher efficiency. Don't make people do jobs they can technically do but secretely hate.

    And please keep in mind that the client only pays for working time, not for coffee/lunch/boredom-time.
    "Love me, hate me, but don't ignore me."

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by mPeror
    I didn't notice the degree part. I completley agree with telos. I have an associate degree in Computer Science, and i know it didn't benefit me much in web development. Universities world wide still teach retarded courses when it comes to web development. Usability and accessability for example aren't even mentioned.
    Many college and university majors (as well as courses) play to the desire, not the need. As impressive as AS or BS degrees in computer science may be, many graduates of those degree programs are "unemployable" (which may be why the field has taken a nose dive in enrollments in the past few years).

    Similarly, the "graphics" side of the fence seems to be as bad; many of the "skills" taught seem impressive in the classroom, but much less so in the real world. The comments are not intended to demean the instruction as much as give fair warning to both prospective students and prospective employers--many "appropriately titled" degree programs have content that is almost pure fluff. While that may be annoying to employers who cannot use degrees as a hiring filter, it is disastrous to students who spend tens of thousands of dollars for an education they believe will prepare them for employment in a good paying technical field, only to find after graduation that they lack the skills to hold even entry-level positions in their field of choice.

    (Opinions based on experience. I have several of those "appropriately titled" degrees.)
    Last edited by traynor; Oct 18, 2006 at 04:45.
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