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  1. #51
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    Well I just got back from my appointment....and things went pretty well. Not only did I sell the web design aspect, but they are planning on using some other services we provide (graphic / marketing stuff). So I think I came out ahead on this one. They're going to email me some more info that they didn't have today, and then I'll get them a proposal. I'm 99% sure that they'll sign it for the number I'll be giving them, but there is always that other 1%.

  2. #52
    Webwellwisher Robert Warren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robotic
    Well I just got back from my appointment....and things went pretty well. Not only did I sell the web design aspect, but they are planning on using some other services we provide (graphic / marketing stuff). So I think I came out ahead on this one. They're going to email me some more info that they didn't have today, and then I'll get them a proposal. I'm 99% sure that they'll sign it for the number I'll be giving them, but there is always that other 1%.
    Great! Enjoy it as a victory. Sure, things can get loopy from here, but that's always a possibility in any client relationship. For now, just bask in the glow of good meeting and cruise through a nice weekend.

    Couple things to remember in the afterglow. There's always a mulling-over period, even when it's sold, so don't be surprised if you don't hear from them precisely at 8am Monday. Also, as a good friend points out to me every time I get neurotic during the week following a good meeting, most of these guys are juggling dozens of things at once - if they're truly sold on you, then that's one problem off their desk. Now they have others that need immediate attention. So don't automatically freak out if the next few days are quiet.. it doesn't necessarily mean that anything is wrong.

    Good job!

  3. #53
    SitePoint Addict Jamieharrop's Avatar
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    I'm glad it went well robotic. Well done. It's a good feeling, right?

    The advice from Robert is good advice, but as well as trying not to over-pressure the client with e-mails and phone calls asking to hear their decision, don't make the mistake of not contacting them at all.

    Maybe just send them a quick e-mail to ask them how they thought the meeting went and whether there was anything you missed in the meeting.

    Don't contact them to a point where it distracts them as per the advice from Robert, but also don't forget all about them. Make them feel like they are your most important client by making sure the meeting went well from their perspective, and making them aware they can contact you at any time if they feel the need.
    Regards,
    Jamie Harrop

  4. #54
    In memoriam gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Schulz's Avatar
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    Definately a good job robotic! Well done!

  5. #55
    SitePoint Enthusiast morgy's Avatar
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    Hey robotic congratulations
    at least one of us got lucky.
    I'm not sure what will happen in my case.
    I would like to share with you a bit of details if you don't mind.
    I just want to know if I didn't handle things quite right.


    I talked on the phone with his assistant who she’s the one that is going to be working with me IF I get the job.
    So I asked her a few questions –following your advice here- but not in the form of interrogation or anything. Just as if we had a normal conversation. So I asked her things like what is your target group and we talked a bit about that. Then I asked if she/they have seen any other website that you may like it’s style and she said no nothing and then I asked a few more simple questions. But she said I should also talk to her boss and I should give him a call the next day.
    So I did and and I told him that I’ve gathered some infos and I would like to make sure that a meeting is still on. He said unfortunately the next day would be kind of busy but we can talk on the phone if this is possible and if I could give him a call at a given time, the next day. I said ok (don’t know if that was very smart but I thought that I needed at least a chance to talk to this guy). I also said that some things that I’ve already prepared I would email them to him. Not a mock up or anything just some general stuff related to our future potential co-operation for this project.
    So I called the other day, I had prepared everything, had my notes in front of me but I don’t think it turned well. I talked to him for like 5 mins.
    One of the things I said was “since I was informed that you haven’t seen any websites to get an idea I would like to show to you some things and discuss with you about them”. He said what do you mean? I have seen and I do have some ideas. So I said ok then I’m sorry I was just misinformed (my tone wasn’t serious or anything, but more like casually cheerful). Anyway, I didn’t like that one because it seems to me that these people are kind of disorganized. His assistant says one thing and he said the opposite. If they don’t communicate with each other how am I going to communicate with them?


    Anyway, he said that he will read my email on Monday and since it’s going to be a busy week he will sometime contact me to arrange a meeting.

    Why do I think that this is going to be a waste of my time? If not already been? I’ve spent time and money to prepare things for that company, during the past week, doing my research to get to know their field, writing documents for my presentation etc. and ...nothing.
    Should I stop bother or should I insist?
    I'm kind of loosing interest though :/

  6. #56
    SitePoint Addict Jamieharrop's Avatar
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    I'm sorry to hear that morgy. You did nothing wrong at all. It seems your prospect isn't organised, like you said.

    Don't give up yet. Give it one last shot. When people tell you they will call you, all too often that is an answer for "I can't be bothered". However, give it a chance. If he doesn't call you within a week, give him another call to see if you missed a call with him (You know you didn't, but it works as a good way to break the ice).

    It does sound like there are much better clients out there, but I wouldn't give up yet. I have fired clients in the past (I've fired clients who I had quoted a 10k+ figure because the effort I was having to put in wasn't worth the price.) but I wouldn't fire this one quite yet. If you don't hear anything in a week, give them a call. If they still don't seem interested, try to speak with them about direct ways you can increase their profit, and give them solid numbers. If that doesn't grab their attention and get them in to 5th gear, then my personal inclination would be to fire the client and go find better work which takes half the effort as you're putting in now. Work smart, not hard.

    There are certainly good and bad clients. It was only yesterday that I was speaking with my business partner about how much I like one of our latest clients. He is alert, understands how important a Web site is, refers us to plenty of his associates and is incredibly easy to talk to. I just called a prospect 40 minutes ago. We spoke for 20 seconds while she explained she was out of the office and she would call back in an hour, but already I know I'm going to enjoy working with her, just from the tone of her voice. She was alert, cheerful and sounded like she had a spring in her step.

    On the other hand, I have some clients I wish I didn't have to work with, but those also happen to be the ones bringing me the most profit each month.

    I want you to know that you haven't done a thing wrong with this prospect. Don't let your confidence diminish because of this. Put a smile on your face, walk with pride and tell yourself that you believe in yourself. Trust me, when you do find that perfect client you'll be full of confidence and pride.
    Regards,
    Jamie Harrop

  7. #57
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    Morgy - does sound like a typical time waster; I've been there, done that a few times in the past. Basically, if someone agrees to a phone meeting and then cuts me off after 5 minutes, I'll certainly lose interest unless they give me a good reason why they are cuting things short. Their lack of organisation is also a red flag.

    I also think you're focusing on the wrong things here - at this stage it doesn't matter what web sites they like, what kind of designs they are looking for etc, you should only worry about design aspects after you get the signed contract. Don't let the prospect dictate the sales process like this, tell them that it isn't important to worry about design at this stage - better to find out why they need a web site, what it's goal will be for their business, and what the approximate price will be for you to build a site that meets that goal. They can then mull over this.

    BTW - have you discovered what their budget is yet? If they wont tell you, give then a rough idea of the costs (e.g. 'something like this will cost in the region of 2000-4000 euros; is this the kind of money you are looking to spend?'). I really wouldn't be going to all this trouble until you are sure they a) are willing to spend the right kind of money, and b) are not just dilly-dallying around and wasting your time.

  8. #58
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    congrats robotic, and sorry for morgy.

    I can only second Jamieharrop on all he said.

    And even if nothing comes through this, remember that you are right to be upset, but that's not a tragedy. The preliminary work is always subjet to the risk that the prospect will just turn away.

    Optimize this (learn to do preliminary work with the minimal expense of time) and remember that it all works to your experience :-)

  9. #59
    SitePoint Addict Jamieharrop's Avatar
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    I just got off a 15 minute phone call with the prospect I was talking about in my last post, and I thought I would post something very quick here...

    No matter how much you prepare, no matter how detailed your questions are, you will *always* forget to mention something. As a company, we try to focus on return on investment for our customers. My prospect just then was telling me that her budget isn't huge. That would have been the perfect time for me to chime in and tell her all about ROI and how our focus is to help her business grow, not shrink. However, I totally forgot. I was so tied up in making notes, I forgot to mention it. The second I put the phone down I remembered I should have mentioned it.

    Not to worry though. It happens, and you will always forget to mention something. Don't let the little things get in your way.
    Regards,
    Jamie Harrop

  10. #60
    SitePoint Enthusiast morgy's Avatar
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    First of all
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamieharrop
    You did nothing wrong at all.
    Thank you, that means a lot, really especially at this point
    And of course thanks everyone for your support. No, I don't feel disappointed, in fact now I know better

    About that
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowbox
    I also think you're focusing on the wrong things here - at this stage it doesn't matter what web sites they like, what kind of designs they are looking for etc, you should only worry about design aspects after you get the signed contract. Don't let the prospect dictate the sales process like this, tell them that it isn't important to worry about design at this stage - better to find out why they need a web site, what it's goal will be for their business, and what the approximate price will be for you to build a site that meets that goal. They can then mull over this.
    Yes you're probably right, however in this case it was more of a *since my friend is working at you guys I will voluntarily show you some extra things as a sign of good will* approach. I guess that was not very wise of me. I thought that if I showed more than the rest (they have seen others) they would appreciate it. That was my mistake I suppose because now they expect more. However if they continue this attitude I’ll probably say “sorry but I closed another deal, I’m sorry we didn’t have a chance to work together” even if there is no other deal.
    I can be really nice but also really tough lol

    Oh and since I’m a *friend*, since they know I’m fresh on the scene, they expect me to be cheaper(and well at this point I am cheaper). And the worse thing is that I have the impression they will try to bargain me even more.

    Frox yes thanks for that tip, but it was my first time so yeah it took me a lot of time to organize things. With experience that will change I guess.

  11. #61
    Webwellwisher Robert Warren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morgy
    Why do I think that this is going to be a waste of my time? If not already been? I’ve spent time and money to prepare things for that company, during the past week, doing my research to get to know their field, writing documents for my presentation etc. and ...nothing.
    Should I stop bother or should I insist?
    I'm kind of loosing interest though :/
    It sounds to me like there's just a rapport break between you and this prospect. That happens sometimes - the conversation is stilted, nothing quite seems to connect, the thing chugs along like a car running on three spent sparkplugs. There's really nothing much you can do about that; in fact, if rapport isn't working, a forward project is going to be trouble anyway.

    A few other thoughts..

    About disorganization: if you plan to work with big companies, get used to it. Some are better, some are worse. But of the dozens of different corporations I've worked with and for over my life (both as a fulltime employee and as a contractor), I've never once found one that wasn't basically a big screwball comedy. In fact, disorganization can be very profitable.. if they had all their bolts completely tight, they wouldn't need to go outside for help on things like this. Also, a lot of middle managers actually create disorganization intentionally as an internal political tool.

    About preparation: I suspect you probably overprepared for this meeting, which is part of why you're worked up. As you're new, that's natural. We all did it. In the future, though, learn to travel light to routine meetings - one quality conversation is worth twenty precision presentations.

    About "friends": Your instincts are probably right that they're expecting cheap work. That's the advantage of working with friends, especially those who are new in the business.

    If this were me, I'd keep checking back with them, go through the motions. Don't need the job, don't bend over for it. If it happens, great; if not, fine. And if it does, lock that contract down tight - make sure you're covered every which way - because "friends" (friendly associates, as distinct from actual friends) will usually assume that they can get away with anything and everything. Don't let the "friendly" atmosphere talk you into easing up on your own legal and business self-protections.

    Just some friendly advice from a guy who's been through all this.

  12. #62
    Non-Member the baldchemist's Avatar
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    Jamie & Robert.
    Hello and thanks for your pointers re my remarks. I wasn't attempting to appear arrogant with the remarks about whether or not "i should take the client on or not" but more of a dont be afraid, I'm not subservient confident roll. It's always difficult on your first meetings for anyone ( even the 100 and first for that matter) but often a client in , say the hotel business knows about hotels and what image they wish to portray but does not know how best to "develope it" for the net.
    My point is do your reasearch and come with solid suggestions as to how you can increase good solid retentive business. Robert I see you write copy. you will know the value of great copy creative. The developement of a site, i believe relies on brilliant attention grabbing, call for action copy.
    Lets not get too bogged down with the technicalities in our approach to clients but clear and compelling content is what they want to hear. "Cause at the end of the day they are hiring your company to make them MONEY. PS (I know the use of the codes etc is important too). Great to read your stuff.

  13. #63
    Non-Member the baldchemist's Avatar
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    Morgy
    Dont worry too much about it. The lesson to learn is, give them, in writing a break down of your scope of work.

    1 the first meeting to establish the scope of work ( and to find out what you suggest they require).
    2give them a written three phase scope of work containg the charges for your work. (as lawyers and all the other professionals).
    Each phase will have a charge. You dont move on to the next one before you have been paid for the present one!
    GET THEM TO SIGN OFF ON EVERY STAGE!
    it's professional to do it this way and the client will respect your professionalism. ( Robert, this is what i meant in my previous post).
    Morgy unless you get a bit tough and tell them this is not the way you do business, the risk is you will end up being a busy fool.
    I dont know how much you have contributed but untill you get wrtitten confirmation of your terms, stop now!
    Your time has to be worth at least( depending on your skills) 70-80 Euros an hour.
    Listen after your first meeting send them a summary of your understanding and what YOU require from them in terms of commitment and payment. If you dont get it then move on and enjoy the experience. "cause you wont do it again will you.
    Keep in toch Morgy you'll do fine. When one doesn't have experience ask the pertinant questions of those that do. You did that and believe me you will go a loooooooong way.
    PS No offence to Greeks but having lived on Rhodos for 4 years I know how difficult it is to get any form of commitment let alone money form them. Yasoo.the baldchemist

  14. #64
    Non-Member the baldchemist's Avatar
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    In case someone moans about the grammar and spelling. I am writing without my glasses.
    Have fun everyone,
    .the baldchemist

  15. #65
    Webwellwisher Robert Warren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the baldchemist
    My point is do your reasearch and come with solid suggestions as to how you can increase good solid retentive business. Robert I see you write copy. you will know the value of great copy creative. The developement of a site, i believe relies on brilliant attention grabbing, call for action copy.
    Actually, that depends greatly on the client in question. The stuff I do isn't really "call to action" kind of projects, though there is usually some sort of CTA involved. I mostly work B2B (business-to-business) for highly technical clients - energy, finance, technology, materials manufacturing, etc. - in situations where the most important thing is to get complicated concepts across clearly and simply; the readers already typically know what their needs are, and are now just looking for solid information rather than a pitch. In those applications, and in many others, taking on an overconfident grab-the-reader air can seriously backfire. There's a certain point where, if you are who you say you are, you simply shouldn't have to resort to it.

    The "brilliant attention grabbing, call for action" type copy is a lot more apt for B2C (business-to-consumer) work aimed at an end retail buyer, and even then, grab-and-go copy can backfire if you're pitching luxury products/services to highly educated readers. To those audiences, it can come off sounding manipulative and condescending if done wrong.

    Sometimes the appropriate goal is the sale; other times, education; often, both. The key is to know your audience, and to not assume that one pitch style fits all, because every situation is subtly unique. My point was that there's a tremendous amount of room between being the equivalent of a temp employee and being a used-car salesman. Playing it up as a binary choice, one or the other, betrays a lack of understanding of the many subtleties of business communication, marketing, and people in general - and, with the wrong prospect, it'll show.

  16. #66
    Webwellwisher Robert Warren's Avatar
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    And let me follow that up with one more comment.

    At the end of the day, we all here are professional communicators. I write; many reading this code. Many others are graphic designers. Some of us associate with marketing, others don't. But regardless of our media of choice, we all do essentially the same thing: we bring professional-level communication skills (in one form or another) to clients who don't have them, and we expand and refine our clients' abilities to communicate to their customers and markets. The rest is technical detail.

    That's why I firmly believe that an initial meeting should not be a "take it or leave it" sales pitch, particularly with big companies. Along with your technical skills and experience, that meeting or phone call is your first (and maybe only) solid chance to demonstrate your ability to communicate on a professional level.

    Most of effective communication is simply knowing how to ask good questions, listen attentively, and to appropriately include others in your narrative (and yourself in theirs). You should never get so wrapped up in the confident image (or anything else, for that matter) that your credibility as a skilled communicator gets called into question.

  17. #67
    Non-Member the baldchemist's Avatar
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    Robert you make sense. My initial in-put here was to Morg making her (?) first meeting.
    I certainly did not mean that it was a take it or leave it attitude. Hey I'm just here to give some other view points. there is no agression in me.
    You summed it up very succintly "we are just trying to impart skills to those who may not have them. Clients included. Why they bring us in.
    I enjoy your contributions here. Please dont spin mine.

  18. #68
    SitePoint Enthusiast morgy's Avatar
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    You all have correct points.
    Robert yes you are right and so are you alchemist. No I don’t want to be a busy fool so that’s why I value very much every single advice all of you that you have given me so far.

    However I should add that I’m starting to totally loosing interest because in retrospect as I’m rethinking the whole thing I feel that on our last call the guy had an attitude of “hm... I shouldn’t show her that I know nothing, I must show off a bit”. But I'll wait a bit to see what happens. If I take the job fine. If I don't that's also fine. (maybe more than fine hehe)

    And to add something else, this morning I talked with another friend who I’m also working on his project. With him we have such a great communication and whenever we say that we should meet, we actually do meet. And I have no money issues whatsoever with him. He understands what I say to him and vice versa of course.


    Anyway, I wouldn't want to drag this thread with my case. I'll let you know about the "verdict" soon


    Ps. Alchemist what you said about Greeks is very close to the truth so no offence taken.

  19. #69
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    hm... I shouldnt show her that I know nothing, I must show off a bit
    Well, that's probably true, but don't take it as a personal thing. That's a quite a typical boss-to-employee thing.

    Show your professionalism (lots of good advice above) and hopefully that will turn to a client-to-consultant thing. If it doesn't, forget it ...

    (seeing the situation, there might a vein of sexism as well)

  20. #70
    SitePoint Zealot webfinity's Avatar
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    Since you discussed price over the phone, bring a contract. I've found that if you discuss price over the phone the client is typically ready to get things going. Only pull it out if you know he is ready to sign, and that no major changes have been made.

    I always ask the question - How quickly do you want this site up? Typical response yesterday... pull out the contract.

  21. #71
    SitePoint Enthusiast morgy's Avatar
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    *a few days later*

    So the guy doesn't worth my time. Now he is on another business trip and only god knows when he'll be back, not to mention, when he'll have time to meet with me.
    So, yes, I don't need doing business with him.
    However, now I know better and I guess can recognize easier wether a future client is a time-waster or not.
    Oh, and I also learned that I shouldn't work that much before a not-even-certain-future meeting.

    Anyway, I can't thank you guys enough for everything you said. I've already kept my notes.
    Robotic best of luck to you and I hope you get lots of $$ with the completion of your project.

  22. #72
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    Glad to see you're staying positive; it does get easier to spot these time wasters - eventually you'll be able to suss them out within the first few minutes of a phone call, especially after you get used to dealing with more serious prospects.

  23. #73
    SitePoint Zealot hephaistion's Avatar
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    getting back to what to wear with prospects. i find that where possible you can find out the kind of clothes the prospects are wearing before you even go to the meeting. quite often i do a pre-run to estimate travelling times anyway and if you time this for lunchtime or first thing you chould get a good idea of what they are comfortable with. being a designer, of course, they will give some leeway - but not enough to become a distraction!

  24. #74
    Webwellwisher Robert Warren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morgy
    *a few days later*

    So the guy doesn't worth my time.
    My condolences as well, but at least it didn't move forward. If there's anything worse than a time waster on the project runway, it's a time waster in the project cockpit.

    I'm dealing with one of the latter at the moment. All the warning signs were there, all the instincts said no, but it was the middle of summer (my usual slow season) and I figured I could chug through it. A mess from the get-go: terrible project management, little client cooperation, lots of needless phone calls, you name it.

    Thing is, I bill for all that stuff - I spell that out up front, it's in the contract, it's very clear. Waste my time on contract and you'll pay for it. Now the project's thirty days out of schedule, my contract has expired, the thing is over budget (their fault, not mine), and they're disputing the bill - regardless of the fact that everything is documented and the contract is very clear and the fault lay with them.

    I don't get these turkeys very often, but when I do, they tend to be long protracted dramas that span months. I'll probably have to put it to collection, and talk of courts might end up being involved.. and I always end up kicking myself because I knew - KNEW - at the very beginning that the warning signs were there. But it was summer and it was a slow week.

    Time wasters suck. Just be glad this one didn't become a client.
    Last edited by Robert Warren; Oct 26, 2006 at 18:42.

  25. #75
    SitePoint Enthusiast morgy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Warren
    all the instincts said no
    I do believe that we should always trust our insticts, particularly in this job.


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