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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Schulz
    Look at it this way. If you're going to spend your time galavanting about how evil Microsoft is, and your direct competitor, Jim Jones Consulting (I made the name up), is telling the same client how the sites he has designed increased his clients' revenues by an average of forty percent last year, improved the image and reputation of his clients tenfold, led to new business opportunities to his clients to expand into other markets, and (on top of that) invites the client and all of his employees to the company picnic next Saturday, who do you think the prospect is going to award the contract to? You, or the professional? I'll bet the farm the professional gets the contract any day of the week.
    OK, suppose Dan Schultz, Inc. increased his clients' revenues by 40%...but suppose that clients' costs also increased by 40% because of various costs associated with Microsoft (Windows servers, security issues, etc.).

    Now suppose a professional web designer offered the same deal Dan Schultz, Inc. did for a slightly lower fee. But suppose he also offered his client some free advice. He didn't stand on a soapbox or engage in any histrionics. He didn't just recommend Firefox, and he didn't even delve into any politics. He simply stated his opinion that his client might save a lot of money by scrapping Microsoft technology in favor of open source.

    As a result, his client's revenue increased a whopping 60%. (I know, that's a lot, but so is the 40% you included in your analogy.) NOW who do you suppose is going to get this client's business - Dan Schultz, Inc. or the professional???

  2. #102
    Webwellwisher Robert Warren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sagewing
    Sounds like everyone's been brainwashed except for you, geo.
    Aw, pishaw. Everyone knows that we're all paid, corrupt Microsoft lackeys around here. In my spare time, I also work tirelessly to keep the 300mpg carburetor and the water-run internal combustion engine under wraps for the oil industry. Evil's always good for ready cash, you know.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Warren
    Aw, pishaw. Everyone knows that we're all paid, corrupt Microsoft lackeys around here. In my spare time, I also work tirelessly to keep the 300mpg carburetor and the water-run internal combustion engine under wraps for the oil industry. Evil's always good for ready cash, you know.
    You raise a very good point. There are many, many Microsoft lackeys out there, some of whom work in web design. Which begs the question, how many clients get bum deals from web developers who steer them down the corporate path when they might save money by choosing the open source path.

    My eyes were opened when I realized that several individuals on the Dreamweaver forum were indeed steering people towards Microsoft - often giving them inaccurate information in the process. I think truth is a very important element to consider when talking about respect.

  4. #104
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    Is there anything about Microsoft that you think has any value whatsoever, or are they just pure evil in your eyes?
    The fewer our wants, the nearer we resemble the gods. Socrates

    SAGEWING LLC - QUALITY WEB AND MOBILE APPS. PREMIUM OUTSOURCING SERVICES.
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by geosite
    how many clients get bum deals from web developers who steer them down the corporate path
    About the same who get some open source zealot kid with more rhetoric then ability. The price difference between leasing an MS server vs. a linux server is negligible, for shared hosting it's negligible to the point of being nothing in plenty of cases.

    The only "heavy" price is if you want your own copy of MSSQL and guess what? If a client can't afford that (a whole $100 or $200 / month for the license, on top of the server) they sure as hell can't afford me.

    Companies certainly don't make money by using open source for their site. The technology used for the site is just as irrelevant as any of your other arguments about how a "professional" web developer should be.

    And yeah - I'm an "MS lackey". I work almost exclusively with MS technologies, and when I'm not using MS I'm using other proprietry stuff.

    In the last 12 months I made 12 web developers redundant then unemployed at the company I work for, while the "evil proprietry software" I use sets them back a few hundred a month. The net saving? About $70k a month now. It's the person that matters, not the platform.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sagewing
    Is there anything about Microsoft that you think has any value whatsoever, or are they just pure evil in your eyes?
    Microsoft makes damn good spreadsheet software.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by fkr
    The price difference between leasing an MS server vs. a linux server is negligible, for shared hosting it's negligible to the point of being nothing in plenty of cases.

    The only "heavy" price is if you want your own copy of MSSQL and guess what? If a client can't afford that (a whole $100 or $200 / month for the license, on top of the server) they sure as hell can't afford me.

    Companies certainly don't make money by using open source for their site. The technology used for the site is just as irrelevant as any of your other arguments about how a "professional" web developer should be.
    Hmmm... Kind of makes one wonder why so many businesses and government agencies around the world have abandoned Microsoft in recent years, doesn't it? Guess they should have consulted you first.

    In the last 12 months I made 12 web developers redundant and unemployed at the company I work for, while the "evil proprietry software" I use sets them back a few hundred a month. The net saving? About $70k a month now. It's the person that matters, not the platform.
    So you say.

  8. #108
    In memoriam gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Schulz's Avatar
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    Geosite, normally I would consider that a personal attack. However, I'll ignore it, and forgive you this time.

    I'll also ignore your attempt to hijack the thread by bringing real world politics (a bona-fide SitePoint no-no) into this discussion in order to avoid recognizing the issues that have been presented and discussed in this thread.

    If you had read my earlier post in this thread, you would have realized that I said that standards compliance is a means to an end. I only mentioned your personal browser war because YOU HAD BROUGHT IT UP, and even then I mentioned that designing sites to work everywhere is one of those means to meeting the clients' needs (the end). If we design our sites to work everywhere, that will allow the clients to increase their exposure to new markets and customers. If we use the skills at our disposal to make people want to spend their hard-earned money, we will increase our clients' revenues.

    I'm not going to apologize for what I'm about to say, but it's a sad day when I see a person who's old enough to be my father act like a child. Get off the pulpit, take a break, and calm down. We all have issues and causes that we hold dear to our hearts, but we have to understand and respect others' opinions as well. When one starts flaming and trolling another, and belittling others as you have done in this thread, it makes that person look bad. That person loses the respect of their peers. Just as you are doing in this thread.

    You say that in order to get others to respect you, you first have to respect yourself. I agree with that wholeheartedly. But you also have to respect other people, in order for them to respect you. If you respect yourself, and respect the people around you, chances are very good that they, in turn, will come to respect you.

    Think about that. Seriously.

  9. #109
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    dan, what a great way to sum it up

    i think we've had enough of the bitter character assassination that seems to have crept in here, so i'm going to close the thread
    rudy.ca | @rudydotca
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