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  1. #1
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    web designer respect

    Been in this industry for awhile now and things have been getting to be lately.

    One of the main things is that I really feel that more then 60% of clients and potential clients don't respect the web design business. They truly believe that we are a dime a dozen. I have some great clients that understand the service they are provided is critical to the success of their business, but others don't really see it like that.

    For example, lately I have to make 2-4 phone calls to an existing client who is basically 1 step away from signing up with us. The client is always busy and doesn't promptly return phone calls. There are other's like that that in one way or another don't show enough respect for the services they are getting. If their lawyer or doctor called, I am sure they would make sure to speak with them.

    Another thing that bugs me - my sales guy went for a meeting with a client who was bargaining the price of a website that in my opinion was critical for her business (her old site was horrible and the type of business she was in needed a nice site). She wanted to reduce the cost of the site by like $200. Which to me, is insignificant and something I would never haggle about. Now this client pays like $10,000 for her lease and has a decent amount of money. Why are people putting price over quality with web design?

    Now please don't reply with posts such as offer great customer service and a great product and people will appreciate you. I have really been in the industry a long time and offer a great service with many clients that are very happy. It just seems that generally - the respect for us web designers isn't at the level it should be.

  2. #2
    SitePoint Evangelist sysice's Avatar
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    I think a lot of this has to do with user experience. Many people think they have a web site, but they end up getting their first one on the cheap and it doesn't generate any leads because of the quality and the fact no marketing effort gets put behind it.

    So, now they have the mind set of why pay lots of money if it won't get me any business.

    I have a meeting tomorrow with someone that wants to come aboard because she heard that her competitors are getting tons of business from the web and she isn't. Her web site is pretty much all images now and no text which has killed her in terms of SEO.

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    IMO, there are a few issues, but much of it comes down to the level of committment most web developers are willing to give to 'prospective' clients. Compare yourself to a seasoned 'business professional' like a lawyer, doctor, architect or accountant. How much time do you think these people would be willing to spend on a potential customer?

    Think about it - let's say you need the services of an accountant. After asking around for a referral you get no luck so you ring a few accountants from the yellow pages. You'll probably get 20-30 minutes of their time, either over the phone or they may even invite you down to their offices, but unless you represent some serious money to them (e.g. 5/6/7 figures), it's unlikely that they are going to bend over backwards for you, especially for free.

    Yet most web developers are all too eager to give major committments to anyone who shows the slightest bit of interest to them. They agree to take maybe half a day out of their time to meet some prospect at the prospect's office/home, they typcially agree to writing detailed sales proposals which can take half a day to a couple of days to prepare, all on the hope of getting a job (which quite typically can be only for a low 4 figure budget). Just how many lawyers or architects would be willing to give this level of committment to a low yeild prospect?

    Is it any wonder that people view our industry with such lack of respect? Some prospects act like they are trying to broker a multi-million dollar deal when their budget is just a couple of grand - rfps sent out to dozens of developers (how many man hours is that wasted?), sales meetings upon sales meeting, all for some corporate brochure site. I've a friend who's a pharmaceutical salesman and he does spend his entire life in sales meetings, kissing *** and writing very detailed sales proposals, but a) it's his only job, he's not also designing sites and generally running a business on his own (as is the case with most freelancers) and b) he's trying to secure seven figure deals, not poxy $2000 deals - his company can afford to lose the odd deal and waste time on sales meetings with luke warm prospects.

    If web developers started to balance committment levels and show their prospects that their time is just as important as the prospects, maybe our prosepcts would respect us more. When someone asks to meet up, invite them to your office. Or invite them to meet you at a local cafe - get them to make a decent committment, don't just leave the committment scales weighed completely against you. When they ask you to go away and write up a 20 page proposal, tell them that this is something you get paid for, just like an architect would charge to draw up the plans for a house.

    As Sagewing says, it's about finding the right clients; it's also about changing people's perception of what you do and who you are - the problem is that it's not just about other people, it's about your own perception of what you are and where you stand in the general scheme of things. Unfortunately with so many kids, so many chancers and so many amateurs calling themselves 'web developers' it's unlikely that anyone is ever going to give us the respect given to lawyers and doctors.

    Not many web developers have letters after their names, there's no years of studying for offical examinations, etc etc. Most web developers are just coders who are trying to run a business and not doing a very good job of it - it's almost embarrassing to hear some of the tales told on this web site - people working without contracts, working for slave wages, guys spending more time writing sales proposals than actually working on or in their business, guys agreeing to completly unacceptable terms, the list goes on. The industry's a mess because 95% of the people working in it haven;t got the first idea on how to run a business.

  4. #4
    Webwellwisher Robert Warren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowbox
    Most web developers are just coders who are trying to run a business and not doing a very good job of it - it's almost embarrassing to hear some of the tales told on this web site - people working without contracts, working for slave wages, guys spending more time writing sales proposals than actually working on or in their business, guys agreeing to completly unacceptable terms, the list goes on. The industry's a mess because 95% of the people working in it haven;t got the first idea on how to run a business.
    Too true. A followup issue to that is the impact it's had on freelancers working in other fields - copywriting, print graphic design, etc. Not that they don't have their share of amateurs as well.. but I have noticed in recent years that, more and more, when a prospect thinks that I'm being unreasonable about some business element (cost, contract, etc.) it's usually because their web designer is willing to do anything for nothing on zero commitment. As a result, when I'm asked by a client for designer referrals, I often can't provide them - not that I don't know any, but I can't in good conscience recommend them, no matter how skilled they are. I know quite a few non-web-designer freelancers who feel and do the same.

    I've noticed that for bigger, better clients, there's usually a need for writers and qualified graphic people (brochures, print work, etc.) long before someone starts asking around for a web designer. Then we're the ones who get asked, and then we (professionally and politely) vent. That's certainly contributing to the issue - not just the opinions of clients, but that of peers as well.

  5. #5
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    The last few posts are awe-inspiring.

    But the crux of the thing is missing. Web design has to mature. We're not in an era of professional design, we're at the end of the "Cousin Joey" era. Where you're sister's kid got Dreamweaver or Flash, and then knew how to "do" websites. There is far too much fascination with the technology and far too little idea of human factors.

    …Many sites submitted had no concern for the user on the most basic levels. Rarely could you identify an idea or purpose behind the site, or name a possible user goal the site was intended to facilitate. There was no flow, no legibility, no usability. It wasn’t so much that the designers had contempt for their users as that they seemed never to have been taught to think about users at all.

    —Jeffrey Zeldman; The rebooter’s children go rebootless; 23 June 2005
    Due to the source, Zeldman, I feel the article marks a possible turning point. It's the end of experts in Dreamweaver, Flash, and even Ruby and PHP. It's no longer humorous to see a four page PHP/mySQL site with a total of 150 words of text. It is no longer trendy to be a master of the PhotoShop filter, and not know about visual merchandising. And it is long past annoying to see sites SEO'd within an inch of their lives because web designers know everything about spamming google and nothing about human nature, copywriting, or developing a Unique Selling Proposition.

    Unfortunately, as the kickoff post makes painfully clear, the current crop of web designers are like old Detroit automakers. Until a new crop of designers take up the role of the Japanese industrial invasion, things won't change.



    The era of "excuses" for websites is over. It's no longer good enough to have a site because everyone else does, you can't design websites in a competitive vacuum. It's no longer cool to use the website as an excuse to learn PHP, a layout hack, or photoshop, you have to produce business results. It's no longer good enough to get some casual comments about your logo, and think you've done due dilligence for making the site use centered and usable.

    And just because tables are out on the web designer trend list this week, doesn't mean XHTML and CSS are vital for success. You have no business case. Period. Web designers got addicted to selling that first site. Now that it's up, they have no ability to create value for redesigns.

    The old era was about redesigns. The new era is about realignment with business realities.

    Having the twenty-thousandth me-too, lookalike website doesn't cut it anymore. Has it been "getting to you lately?" Well it's about time.
    Last edited by DCrux; Oct 4, 2006 at 17:11.

  6. #6
    SitePoint Evangelist Unit7285's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCrux
    The last few posts are awe-inspiring.
    Add yours to the list

    Paul

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowbox
    .
    If web developers started to balance committment levels and show their prospects that their time is just as important as the prospects, maybe our prosepcts would respect us more. When someone asks to meet up, invite them to your office. Or invite them to meet you at a local cafe - get them to make a decent committment, don't just leave the committment scales weighed completely against you. When they ask you to go away and write up a 20 page proposal, tell them that this is something you get paid for, just like an architect would charge to draw up the plans for a house.

    As Sagewing says, it's about finding the right clients; it's also about changing people's perception of what you do and who you are - the problem is that it's not just about other people, it's about your own perception of what you are and where you stand in the general scheme of things. Unfortunately with so many kids, so many chancers and so many amateurs calling themselves 'web developers' it's unlikely that anyone is ever going to give us the respect given to lawyers and doctors.
    Very much agree with you on all these points. However it is harder then you think with some clients who like to have the ball in their court. Back to my example - we have several clients/potential clients who say - please call us at 3pm to go over the proposal. We call and they say - sorry on the phone or we're busy. Call back. Call back and they reschedule again for tomorrow, etc... These are clients that are in the bag - but it feels like we have to push them to start - not the other way around. With enough phone calls - they all sign and start the projects - but it feels like the power has shifted to their court.

    This is just an example, but it really seems like the "value" on our service is not there. Ideally, and I know this is too much to ask, but I want clients banging down our doors - not the other way around. We have a few clients like that who call us and really show that they want to work with us on our terms/schedule. Maybe it's like that in many industries and just a part of the sales process - but it seems like web designers in general are really not valued.

    We don't do work for free or spend a lot of time on proposals unless there is a commitment from the client. But back to my example, if the client seems like a web design project is last on their list - should we keep calling and making a strong effort - or is it better to ignore them and let them come to us or some other company, who might be more persistent?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycwebe
    Very much agree with you on all these points. However it is harder then you think with some clients who like to have the ball in their court. Back to my example - we have several clients/potential clients who say - please call us at 3pm to go over the proposal. We call and they say - sorry on the phone or we're busy. Call back. Call back and they reschedule again for tomorrow, etc... These are clients that are in the bag - but it feels like we have to push them to start - not the other way around. With enough phone calls - they all sign and start the projects - but it feels like the power has shifted to their court.
    This goes back to the point made of adjusting your internal business processes to either learn how to deal with such a situation (and re-adjust the committment balance) or to learn how to avoid such a situation in the first place (which is my preference).

    From the moment someone rings me looking for help, I let them know that I have my own business processes in place; I asses their situation, I ask qualifying (or disqualifying) questions, I assess just how much committment I'm willing to make based on their situation and I look at how much committment they are willing to make back to me. I also ask them what they expect from me in order to satisfy their buying process. For example, if it's a 20 page proposal, I tell them straight that I will not provide such a thing (for free) and that it's something that's handled at the start of a project, once I have a premlininary agreement and retainer in place.

    I set the ground rules early and find that this helps earn the respect required in a balanced business relationship. If I spot that I'm dealing with the type of client who likes playing power games and is unlikely to share committments, I usually walk away. Hence I don't tend to find myself in siutations where prospects are failing to answer pre-arranged phone calls - if it does happen, there's usually a very good reason for it and it's usually the prospect who's falling over themselves to make amends. You say the prospect is 'in the bag' - if so, there really is no need to allow such a heavy power shift in the relationship - if they are not making the committments they agreed to, remind them of this fact, let them know that you feel they are wasting your time and let them know that they can ring you when they are ready to move forward.

    Again, it's all about how you percieve yourself in these matters - are you a desperate vendor looking for his next gig, or are you a consultant, a collaborator ready to assist with a cry for help and develop a balanced, mutally beneficial, long term business relationship?

  9. #9
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    I want clients banging down our doors - not the other way around.
    It starts with the website. My guess, and it is only, a guess is that you have a website that is good looking ....just like everyone else. You have a list of services ....just like everyone else. And a basic business proposition of "open for business" ....just like everyone else.

    At this point it sounds less like you want to find a solution to a problem and more like you want confirmation of your world view. If this were a box model hack discussion, you'd be posting your code for inspection and you would have tried two or three pieces of advice and had some kind of result to talk about. "Here's what I tried" ...."Here is what happened" ...."That didn't work but it pointed me in this new direction."

    The difference between code and this discussion -- you have a problem you want solved with code.

    The difference between listening and pretending to listen, I discovered, is enormous. One is fluid, the other is rigid. One is alive, the other is stuffed. Eventually, I found a radical way of thinking about listening. Real listening is a willingness to let the other person change you. When I’m willing to let them change me, something happens between us that’s more interesting than a pair of dueling monologues. Like so much of what I learned in the theater, this turned out to be how life works, too.

    -- Alan Alda, Never Have Your Dog Stuffed
    But then listening is a human factor. All you have to do is name three ways you are willing to change. Try three experiments. PM the people in this thread with your URL and some ideas for change. Like code, you would not say "well the layout's still broken, so CSS...PHP...Ajax must not work." You would figure out what you got wrong for no other reason than you believe the other guys have some idea of what they are talking about.

    In this case, you don't have one guy, just about everyone in the thread is saying the same thing. The difference is you want to fix your code, you do not want to troubleshoot your world view. Welcome to the General Motors "If you had been in this industry as long as we have" club.

    I just hope you have the quarter million people to lay off.

    We're in dueling monologues territory now. It's about what you would expect in Detroit, but it simply amazes me how quickly a supposed cutting edge industry can get so calcified in its thinking.

    You've experience what every other industry has -- commoditization -- move on. Either develop a value add or $25 templates. What's different here is those industries lost the drive to innovate in ways that matter to their customer base over decades. Web design managed to move technology from obscurity to meaninglessness in a matter of a few years.
    Last edited by DCrux; Oct 5, 2006 at 09:49.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowbox
    This goes back to the point made of adjusting your internal business processes to either learn how to deal with such a situation (and re-adjust the committment balance) or to learn how to avoid such a situation in the first place (which is my preference).

    From the moment someone rings me looking for help, I let them know that I have my own business processes in place; I asses their situation, I ask qualifying (or disqualifying) questions, I assess just how much committment I'm willing to make based on their situation and I look at how much committment they are willing to make back to me. I also ask them what they expect from me in order to satisfy their buying process. For example, if it's a 20 page proposal, I tell them straight that I will not provide such a thing (for free) and that it's something that's handled at the start of a project, once I have a premlininary agreement and retainer in place.

    I set the ground rules early and find that this helps earn the respect required in a balanced business relationship. If I spot that I'm dealing with the type of client who likes playing power games and is unlikely to share committments, I usually walk away. Hence I don't tend to find myself in siutations where prospects are failing to answer pre-arranged phone calls - if it does happen, there's usually a very good reason for it and it's usually the prospect who's falling over themselves to make amends. You say the prospect is 'in the bag' - if so, there really is no need to allow such a heavy power shift in the relationship - if they are not making the committments they agreed to, remind them of this fact, let them know that you feel they are wasting your time and let them know that they can ring you when they are ready to move forward.

    Again, it's all about how you percieve yourself in these matters - are you a desperate vendor looking for his next gig, or are you a consultant, a collaborator ready to assist with a cry for help and develop a balanced, mutally beneficial, long term business relationship?

    You make some excellent points. I think this is the route we are going to take - but I just feel that we are going to lose customers if we are not persistent. Not to the point of being desperate - cause we have enough work, but some clients just need to be nudged a bit to get the ball rolling.

    However experience has taught me that you do get more respect if your prices are high and have a firm business process in place. That is why I think it is crazy how some web designers don't even have a contract. A well developed contract instantly gives you credibility and even respect as a professional. I think the business processes that shadowbox has in place also earns respect and shows the client that you are in control.

    I really believe it is all about how you project yourself and your business. Location also has a lot to do with it. For example, in NYC a lot of respect/worth is determined by your image - how big is your office and where is it located, what car do you drive, what watch do you wear, etc... It's a pain, but it's the reality. If you come to a meeting with a financial firm, driving a oldsmobile - wearing your mickey mouse watch - you're not going to get valued or at least treated as an equal. Clients need to see that you are successful as it gives them the impression that your business is successful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowbox
    Not many web developers have letters after their names, there's no years of studying for offical examinations, etc etc. Most web developers are just coders who are trying to run a business and not doing a very good job of it - it's almost embarrassing to hear some of the tales told on this web site - people working without contracts, working for slave wages, guys spending more time writing sales proposals than actually working on or in their business, guys agreeing to completly unacceptable terms, the list goes on. The industry's a mess because 95% of the people working in it haven;t got the first idea on how to run a business.
    Good point. However, it isn't just the amateurs who give web design a bad name. If you define professional as a person who helps guide and nurture his or her profession - like medical professionals who decide how to treat certain illnesses - then ask yourself who runs the web design profession. Microsoft!

    Seriously, countless web designers complain about the endless hacks they need to code in order to make their websites work in Internet Explorer. But how many take a stand and try to persuade their customers to switch to better browsers?

    Here in the U.S., the medical profession and public education have both been privatized. There's no need to privatize web design, because web designers were never true professionals in the fullest sense of the word to begin with.

    The irony is mind boggling.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by geosite
    Seriously, countless web designers complain about the endless hacks they need to code in order to make their websites work in Internet Explorer. But how many take a stand and try to persuade their customers to switch to better browsers?
    no offence intended, but this is silly

    a professional web designer does not use hacks

    hacks are a sure sign of a print designer that doesn't understand the web

    persuading customers to use a different browser (i will not go so far as to say "better" because that's much too subjective) is not something a professional web designer would ever think of doing
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    Quote Originally Posted by geosite
    Good point. However, it isn't just the amateurs who give web design a bad name. If you define professional as a person who helps guide and nurture his or her profession - like medical professionals who decide how to treat certain illnesses - then ask yourself who runs the web design profession. Microsoft!

    Seriously, countless web designers complain about the endless hacks they need to code in order to make their websites work in Internet Explorer. But how many take a stand and try to persuade their customers to switch to better browsers?

    Here in the U.S., the medical profession and public education have both been privatized. There's no need to privatize web design, because web designers were never true professionals in the fullest sense of the word to begin with.

    The irony is mind boggling.
    Wow, you nailed it. It's all Microsoft's fault and web developers should be up on a soapbox preaching to their clients about Firefox ... that'll increase respect for themselves and the industry in general

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    Quote Originally Posted by r937
    a professional web designer does not use hacks
    Spend some time on the CSS forum. Many web designers have separate style sheets that serve one function only - fix things that don't work in IE.

    persuading customers to use a different browser (i will not go so far as to say "better" because that's much too subjective) is not something a professional web designer would ever think of doing
    Why not? Teachers recommend certain books and curricula. Doctors recommend certain medicines, treatment plans, diets, even clothing brands. So why wouldn't a web designer - who presumably knows more about high-tech issues than the average visitor/client - help his clients by recommending better ways of doing things?

    As for which browsers are "better," I really don't think there's anything subjective about it. IE sucks. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by fkr
    Wow, you nailed it. It's all Microsoft's fault and web developers should be up on a soapbox preaching to their clients about Firefox ... that'll increase respect for themselves and the industry in general
    You don't score points with stupidity and silly icons. I never even mentioned Firefox, and i never said it's ALL Microsoft's fault. I merely pointed out that the rules of web design are largely dictated by Microsoft, not any professional community of web designers.

    Better browsers include Firefox, Opera and Safari. I use all three, though I favor Firefox, and I especially promote it on my websites. In fact, I make an occasional buck off Google referrals, and no visitor has ever complained to me about being duped into trying an inferior browser.

    I think the slogan "Take back the web" says it all.

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    Webwellwisher Robert Warren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycwebe
    Now please don't reply with posts such as offer great customer service and a great product and people will appreciate you. I have really been in the industry a long time and offer a great service with many clients that are very happy. It just seems that generally - the respect for us web designers isn't at the level it should be.
    There are more than a few reasons, but it probably starts with having way too many generalists in the market competing on price, and most of the specialists focusing on technical specialties (i.e. ones clients don't understand) rather than marketing ones. Medical practices, for example, don't care how great a designer is with Javascript. But they do care how a designer's understanding of the health care industry can help attract new clients.

    Folks think generalist designers are a dime a dozen because, for the most part, they are. There are plenty of technical geniuses going broke in web design today, while subject area specialists are making fortunes selling expensive templates to niche markets.

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    It's true, the market is totally flooding with amateur designers. Anyone can jump into the business, and that's one of the things that erodes at the respect level. Also, designers are considered artisitic types and will almost always get less respsect from the business world. Obviously that's a generalization, but in many ways it's true.

    Since you said, "Now please don't reply with posts such as offer great customer service and a great product and people will appreciate you" I am interpreting that as meaning one of two things - either you haven't reached a high enough level of service to get appreciative clients, or your product isn't good enough. In my observation, designers complain about how disrepsectful/etc clients are until they learn how to get better clients, then they stop.

    The fact that you specfically excluded the obvious response right in your original post speaks volumes about the cause of your frustrations!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sagewing
    Since you said, "Now please don't reply with posts such as offer great customer service and a great product and people will appreciate you" I am interpreting that as meaning one of two things - either you haven't reached a high enough level of service to get appreciative clients, or your product isn't good enough. In my observation, designers complain about how disrepsectful/etc clients are until they learn how to get better clients, then they stop.

    The fact that you specfically excluded the obvious response right in your original post speaks volumes about the cause of your frustrations!
    Reason I said that I didn't want to hear it is because many of our customers already appreciate us or the work we provided - over 75% of our work is word of mouth or repeat customers. The problem is not our customer service or quality - but the general view of the industry and the services we provide. Yes there are great clients out there with huge budgets that truly appreciate your service. Should we just focus on selling to them and leave all other mid-size businesses out? I'd also prefer to have 100 mid-size clients then 1 or 2 large ones who can take their business elsewhere and leave a huge hole in the income.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nycwebe
    It just seems that generally - the respect for us web designers isn't at the level it should be.
    The thing about respect is, it's something that's earned, not deserved. So if we aren't repected like we "should be," then it's our own fault. I agree with the points other have made about why, collectively, web designer are not generally well-respected. But I think you are asking the wrong question. You're looking over your experiences and asking, "Why aren't we respected like we ought to be?" instead of asking "Why is this happening to my business and what can I do about it?"

    I think the distinction is important, because the answers you are getting are things you can't do anything about. You cannot control what others are doing that cause buyers to disrespect and devalue our services. But you can change your internal business practices to prevent these things from happening to you. I think shadowbox's answer was dead-on. He touched on the fact that the sales process ought to be a series of mutual commitments. So if you can't get clients keep a 3 pm appointment to review your proposal, then you're not getting that mutual commitment.

    Regarding the other issue, that of price haggling; I once heard sales axiom that says, if the client thinks your price is too high, he's right. It doesn't matter what the client spends on her lease, or whether she has a "decent amount of money." The bottom line is, she doesn't want to spend a dime more than what she feels it's worth. Would you?

    Quote Originally Posted by nycwebe
    ...but it really seems like the "value" on our service is not there.
    That, my friend, is the crux of the problem. If you believe that the value on our service is "not there", how can you possible communicate any value to your customers?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by johntabita
    That, my friend, is the crux of the problem. If you believe that the value on our service is "not there", how can you possible communicate any value to your customers?
    What I was saying there is that many clients don't place a high value on the service - not us.

    Quote Originally Posted by johntabita
    Regarding the other issue, that of price haggling; I once heard sales axiom that says, if the client thinks your price is too high, he's right. It doesn't matter what the client spends on her lease, or whether she has a "decent amount of money." The bottom line is, she doesn't want to spend a dime more than what she feels it's worth. Would you?
    I don't agree with you on this. Many clients are clueless to what quality web design costs and it is our job to educate them. Not about being greedy and try to suck as much money out of them as possible - but high quality costs a bit more then if you got your cousins high school son to do the job.

    For example - if someone comes to us and wants an ecommerce site and then wants to host it on a $5/month hosting plan with some unknown company - we are going to educate them on the importance of spending more for a reliable solution. The reason I brought up her office lease, etc... is to give you an idea of her business (not a small mom and pop shop). I truly believe that you have to spend money to make money and if your web site is a critical part of your business - then you should be willing to invest in it and understand that not all solutions are created equal.

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    SitePoint Guru worchyld's Avatar
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    She wanted to reduce the cost of the site by like $200. Which to me, is insignificant and something I would never haggle about. Now this client pays like $10,000 for her lease and has a decent amount of money.
    Maybe she was burnt in the past, or doesn't see the value of what you're trying to sell, maybe she doesn't trust you, or isn't totally sure your solution will solve the problem.

    I'd try and find out more. Ask her if she was burnt before? You mention accountants, lawyers and doctors and that professional web developers who have successful clients should be treated or respected in the same manner. This really comes down to trust.

    Have a read/view of the trusted advisor website (its a bit old) but it seems to highlight just some of the ideals you've mentioned in your original article;

    http://www.trustedadvisor.com/articles.html

  21. #21
    SitePoint Evangelist old_expat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by worchyld
    You mention accountants, lawyers and doctors and that professional web developers who have successful clients should be treated or respected in the same manner. This really comes down to trust.
    I think it is a lot more than trust.

    Part of it is Standards. Just have a look at acaedemic credentials, exams and licensing requirements for those professions that you are comparing web design to.

    Until web design reaches that point .. although I doubt that it ever will .. designers will get the industry respect they deserve .. none.

    The reasons that the Professions have standards, which have very gradually led to a tendency toward respect, include self discipline as an industry and *shudder* legislation.

    The reasons that the web design industry gets so little general respect, IMO, is well illustrated in the "Bug Fixes" thread. If you're going to act like a gang of opportunists, you will probably be treated like a gang of opportunists.

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    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old_expat
    The reasons that the web design industry gets so little general respect, IMO, is well illustrated in the "Bug Fixes" thread. If you're going to act like a gang of opportunists, you will probably be treated like a gang of opportunists.
    Well put!
    The fewer our wants, the nearer we resemble the gods. — Socrates

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    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    The fewer our wants, the nearer we resemble the gods. — Socrates

    SAGEWING LLC - QUALITY WEB AND MOBILE APPS. PREMIUM OUTSOURCING SERVICES.
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    Chances are, people come to forums for two things -- validation or information. Only one of those options requires listening and change.

    Translation for Southerners: Never try to teach a pig to sing. ....wastes your time and annoys the pig.

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    Doctors and lawyers are worthy of more respect than your typical web developer.

    One save's lives, the other protects the company, and the third can often be replaced by a secretary, or someone's son/daughter who went to community college or even just mucked around online learning Dreamweaver.

    The web development industry is simply full of unskilled, unexperienced and uneducated mediocrity. That's not to accuse anyone here of having those characteristics, but the entry fee for being a doctor or lawyer is a degree and licensing. The entry fee for being a 'professional' web developer is a torrent client.

    That is always going to taint the perception of the industry to many clients.


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