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  1. #1
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    The Original message ( http://www.webmaster-resources.com/f...ML/000488.html ) on whether someone should learn Flash quickly turned into a quick discussion on why Flash is the best thing to enter the Internet scene since HTML. If you read my responses you would know that I don't see a real need for Flash yet or even ever as soon we will be seeing cross-platform web-based operating systems such as Windows NG (Next Generation).

    In order to facilitate this free spirited discussion, I challenge you to show me how Flash can make the web a better place for Business instead of the multimedia and entertainment sites it was designed for.



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    Wayne Luke
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>
    quickly turned into a quick discussion on why Flash is the best thing to enter the Internet scene since HTML
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Now this is just not the case at all!

    The fact is that you basically told someone who was asking if Flash is worth learning in the process of learning other tools for the web, that they basically should not, because you saw it as
    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>
    Not only is it used inappropriately but if you don't have an entertainment or multimedia oriented site it can be a waste of both yours and your visitors efforts<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Now that is not true in the industry today, times are changing and you can read other statements in that thread that lead to that.

    So it is not about how it is the best thing to hit the market since anything, but simply that it is well worth learning for many people in this industry, and just because you do not see it in your future does not mean that it is not a growing tool used on the internet today, and that a largely growing percentage of companies are using it.


    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>I challenge you to show me how Flash can make the web a better place for Business instead of the multimedia and entertainment sites it was designed for.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    As far as your challenge goes. This is up for you to make a decision on, not for anyone to prove it to you, because the end result will be your opinion on whether or not this can be done. It is great for you to have your own opinion, but dont base them on myths, and dont let your views, and your position of moderator mislead others who are inquiring about something.

    The fact is that you are the one turning this into a "what can be done in the way of business with Flash" discussion, when the question was really posted in the design forum, and was asking if Flash was worth learning.

    Flash is a wonderful tool for design elements and sites in general, and for you to say otherwise is a little odd since it is so easily manipulated to create such a wide variety of things. Look at large ad campaigns now, they are starting to use Flash banner ads, and take a look at NBC, where you will find that they are using a Flash navigation, and they are also using a Flash stock ticker. There are so many different ways to use it, but those are some good examples of how it could be used.

    Anyway this is not about how it is better than anything else, just about how it is a good tool, and not a waste of time to learn for a lot of people in this industry, and in the field of design.

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    You see you have it all wrong. Your opinions can sway mine. I went and looked at your site and went through some of the content you have. I couldn't find anything that would sway my opinion unless I was building entertainment based sites in a quick glance. Though I will go back to do some more looking and look in the forums some.

    Unfortunately unlike some people I don't have time to learn every new technology that comes along, I can only learn those that will improve my career. If I was still younger and didn't have family commitments then I would still be learning everything that comes near being usable on a computer. Right now I have to worry about school clothes, holiday pictures, making it to my son's cub scout meetings and fulfilling my contracts.

    The way I read the posts was that if I didn't learn Flash or Graphic Design then I was producing sub-standard work. I just don't see that. I look at the web sites with the largest amounts of traffic and don't see flash, music or any other wizbang effects. In fact the #1 website (www.yahoo.com) in the world is
    plain simple HTML with no bonuses until your deep into the site (chat, games, message boards).

    I only used my moderator powers to break the original post into 1)The original request and 2)This thread for an ongoing discussion of the merits of Flash.

    All I asked for is some examples that show those merits. I went to the NBC.com website and didn't see any flash navigation. The site was a simple table based layout. I did like the ticker on the CNBC.COM website and that is an encouraging use of the technology.

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    Wayne Luke
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    [This message has been edited by wluke (edited March 31, 2000).]

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    to wluke
    based on the fact that a) you seem to agree that Flash is a new technology that has applications in at least some site projects, and that b) the message originally posted by DLG raised such an immediate and involved debate, I was wondering whether or not you thought it might be worth suggesting to Matt to add a forum section for Flash as he has for CGI, Java, DHTML, and other "new technologies"?

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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>
    Unfortunately unlike some people I don't have time to learn every new technology that comes along, I can only learn those that will improve my career. If I was still younger and didn't have family commitments then I would still be learning everything that comes near being usable on a computer. Right now I have to worry about school clothes, holiday pictures, making it to my son's cub scout meetings and fulfilling my contracts.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I can totally understand your point here and respect it as well.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>
    The way I read the posts was that if I didn't learn Flash or Graphic Design then I was producing sub-standard work<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This was never meant to even show itself into the discussion on my part, and is not what I meant at all

    My point was simply because you do not use this in your work, does not mean that it should not be used in someone elses. I am 26 years old, and my girlfriend is slightly younger than me and we make a very good living designing with Flash, and I see just how big it is becoming, and knowing that it is becoming much more accepted means that there are some people out there that should be focusing their talents in this direction.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>
    I only used my moderator powers to break the original post into 1)The original request and 2)This thread for an ongoing discussion of the merits of Flash. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This is not a problem, nor what I was referring to. I was referring to how you basically said that the origionator could definetely be wasting his time by learning it, and wasting his talents as well. The point is that he may be waisting his time sure (No one knows the future), but he may not be as well (the point you failed to mention), and without knowing a little more about the person, it is a little hard to say what would be wasting his time. I would have asked what his talents, goals, education, etc. are, and then made an educated guess with that, but without the facts it is hard to say that it is not a good idea for him. And in being a moderator you have a slightly more creditable name, and even though you are not paid to do this, there is a certain amount of responsability that goes with it as well.

    Now I have seen many of your answers and I know you try to help, and I know you have a lot of knowledge to share with others, but you cannot give advice about what someone should learn without knowing where they are trying to get.


    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>
    I went to the NBC.com website and didn't see any flash navigation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I will try and find the link to post again. It is buried somewhere in my forum.

    I am glad you liked the ticker, and I know that I did not leave a ton of links, but it does show that it is starting to be used in other ways than some think, and with Flash 5 coming soon enough, it should only get better, I am hoping =).

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    marty,

    Or even easier yet, just put Flash in the Html And Graphic Design forums desctiption. I believe the TWF The webmaster Forums ( I believe that is what it is called) has it done exactely how I am thinking of.

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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote/font><HR>I went to the NBC.com website and didn't see any flash navigation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Aaron was talking about http://www.nbci.com . Many very large companies have had tremendous success using Flash in their sites, for example... BMW, Cartier, CBS Sportsline, CBS News, CNN Interactive, Comedy Central, Copper Mountain, K-Swiss, MSNBC, National Geographic, Snap.com, and Xerox.

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    jessica@webstyles.net

  8. #8
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    If another forum were to be added it should be one that encompasses multimedia including streaming file types, Flash and DHTML. I will talk to Eric and Matt about the possibility of a new forum. We would need a moderator for it though.

    With regards to getting to know more about a persons background before making a recommendation, I agree with that and will do so in the future.

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    Wayne Luke
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    I know you do a good job at moderating, and I respect you trying your best to help, it just kind of stuck out this time to me is all.

    Thanks for helping everyone out

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  10. #10
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    The topic of opening a new forum for Flash and other Multimedia topics has been forwarded to the proper powers.

    After doing a quick search I found that the word Flash was used in 73 posts since July 15, 1999. Now this wasn't very conclusive but its not an overwhelming number either.

    What we need from the members is a voicing of how many people would support a new forum for this and whether there is someone with the experience necessary to moderate such a forum.

    A suggested title is:
    "Beyond the basics"

    "If you've gone beyond HTML, CSS and other forums of building your pages, then it's time to step things up a notch. Discuss the use of Flash, Quicktime, video, sound, and many other mulitmedia enhancements here."


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    Wayne Luke
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    Everything you have put forth sounds wonderful, but I am not sure it is necessary for this forum. I personaly have not seen enough discussion to warrent its addition as a forum. I personaly would try to make an addition to a existing forum description. It typically would fall under a graphic/web design category, so that forum makes sense.

    Of course all of this is just my opinion

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    I have to agree with Werehere, who more correctly defined what I originally had in mind. An additional topic stream added to one of the existing umbrella topics makes sense to me. I appreciate Wluke for considering the suggestion seriously and passing it on. Thanks.


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