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  1. #76
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    I have never had the 'real job' question asked of me, but I have noticed that a lot of people don't take the Internet seriously as a business.

    I knew I was really starting to really get successful when people started asking me questions like, 'when do you work?' and 'how can you take weeks off to travel? did you inherit money?'. One of the main goals in my business is to allow me flexibility and time - money is ok but I prefer time as a primary goal. Since I'm a process/efficiency consultant, I have spent quite a bit of time 'optimizing' my business to serve these goals and generate the max income with the least time investment. Sometimes I work a 50 hour week, but usually not. That makes me feel successful.

    When I see so many people focusing on money, money, money as a sign of success it saddens me. There are plenty of people who spent their lives trying to get rich, then got rich, then died. There are plenty of others who never tried and were perfectly happy, and they didn't miss the joys of life while struggling to 'succeed'.

    Think about what you REALLY want in life. If it has a dollar sign in front of it, think again! A business is a tool with which you can realize goals, and money is the instrument of that tool. It's not a goal on it's own, and to think it is can ruin your life.

    When you are happy, have time to spent with your loved ones, are healthy, not stressed out, and content - nobody will ask you when you will get a real job. They will envy you, most likely.
    The fewer our wants, the nearer we resemble the gods. Socrates

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  2. #77
    SitePoint Addict grimsqueaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sagewing
    I have never had the 'real job' question asked of me, but I have noticed that a lot of people don't take the Internet seriously as a business.

    I knew I was really starting to really get successful when people started asking me questions like, 'when do you work?' and 'how can you take weeks off to travel? did you inherit money?'. One of the main goals in my business is to allow me flexibility and time - money is ok but I prefer time as a primary goal. Since I'm a process/efficiency consultant, I have spent quite a bit of time 'optimizing' my business to serve these goals and generate the max income with the least time investment. Sometimes I work a 50 hour week, but usually not. That makes me feel successful.

    When I see so many people focusing on money, money, money as a sign of success it saddens me. There are plenty of people who spent their lives trying to get rich, then got rich, then died. There are plenty of others who never tried and were perfectly happy, and they didn't miss the joys of life while struggling to 'succeed'.

    Think about what you REALLY want in life. If it has a dollar sign in front of it, think again! A business is a tool with which you can realize goals, and money is the instrument of that tool. It's not a goal on it's own, and to think it is can ruin your life.

    When you are happy, have time to spent with your loved ones, are healthy, not stressed out, and content - nobody will ask you when you will get a real job. They will envy you, most likely.
    Beautiful post SageWing. I agree.
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  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sagewing
    I have never had the 'real job' question asked of me, but I have noticed that a lot of people don't take the Internet seriously as a business.

    I knew I was really starting to really get successful when people started asking me questions like, 'when do you work?' and 'how can you take weeks off to travel? did you inherit money?'. One of the main goals in my business is to allow me flexibility and time - money is ok but I prefer time as a primary goal. Since I'm a process/efficiency consultant, I have spent quite a bit of time 'optimizing' my business to serve these goals and generate the max income with the least time investment. Sometimes I work a 50 hour week, but usually not. That makes me feel successful.

    When I see so many people focusing on money, money, money as a sign of success it saddens me. There are plenty of people who spent their lives trying to get rich, then got rich, then died. There are plenty of others who never tried and were perfectly happy, and they didn't miss the joys of life while struggling to 'succeed'.

    Think about what you REALLY want in life. If it has a dollar sign in front of it, think again! A business is a tool with which you can realize goals, and money is the instrument of that tool. It's not a goal on it's own, and to think it is can ruin your life.

    When you are happy, have time to spent with your loved ones, are healthy, not stressed out, and content - nobody will ask you when you will get a real job. They will envy you, most likely.
    I was just about to make a comment about this. I don't really make THAT much money off of my Internet business, at least not yet, but I make enough to "always have beer in the fridge" and still be able to go on a month long holiday several times a year. Whilst I'm still in university, this is all that matters.

    EDIT: also, there have been a bunch of comments containting "zomg univsersity = waste of time". Well, imho, if you don't go to university, you just missed out on a large part of this thing called life.

  4. #79
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    I get the same thing fro my wife. I have been doing web design part time for some time and just left my 9 to 5 job to become partners with my brother in law's company. I had to move across the country for 8 months but financially it was worth it. I tell my wife to look at the pros, and not the cons. I just do my best to make it work.

  5. #80
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    I've got two stories.

    One, my wife, we were living together and not yet engaged and she would freak out and... "What if I get pregnant...How will we support it... will you get a real job?" She though I was a bum who played video games all day with hairbrained schemes about making money online. Heh.

    The other involves my Dad. He is a doctor and so highly educated. When I dropped out of college to work on my own business he didn't approve. Even when I started making good money he didn't approve, even when I was making 6 figures he still thought I should work on my degree. Now I make more than he does and he doesn't say that anymore Not that he wasn't supportive, but you know he'd always slide it into a conversation.
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  6. #81
    SitePoint Member The Militant's Avatar
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    my mom yells at me actually for not doing it more often


    she see's i make normal money at my job, but make real quick and good money when i design time to time but unfortunaly im growing up and let girls and cars take up my time over webdesign

    actually not unfortunalty girls> design and cars are just fun
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  7. #82
    SitePoint Guru
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    and they didn't miss the joys of life while struggling to 'succeed'.
    You like to suppose that everyone has the same "joys of life". There are people that are perfectly happy spending their lives "getting rich", while ignoring "family time" etc. The act of running a successful business and gaining wealth for some is an end in itself.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by aspen
    "What if I get pregnant...How will we support it... will you get a real job?"
    Now, that's really funny

  9. #84
    Web developer chrisranjana's Avatar
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    As long any other business exists, web design will exist too.
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  10. #85
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    It's not always about the money. My wife totally supported me in my decision, even though we struggled in Zimbabwe for several years. Not exactly the best place to be pioneering a web business as a self-employed individual right now. We did it because of personal convictions and beliefs. I ended up providing consulting services to my previous employer, who by the way also asked me the same question - do I really have what it takes to succeed? Did I have a business plan? Why don't we reach an alternative arrangement? He's now a good friend, even though he really wishes I was still working on his payroll.

    The thing for me was he always wanted something else cause he was a entrepreneur himself, so every project required I put in hours of learning, which don't always bring in the money.

    Since I moved to the USA 6 months ago I'm back in the corporate world designing sites for a fertilizer manufacturer. Running your own web business plunges you in the deep end - you have to learn it all. I believe I ended up with a much deeper experience than I would have otherwise.

    My in-laws were really getting to us about the working for yourself thing. And with the international move really loaded it on to make sure I didn't start working for myself again. Maybe someday...

  11. #86
    Working on it... Contrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisranjana
    As long any other business exists, web design will exist too.
    I don't think it's about web design or anything specific really.

    Though 'shockbotkins' is in the web development industry, it goes for anything that has to do with taking the risk of launching and running your own business without experience and education.

    People aren't judging him because they don't know anything about the net or web development, but rather because they might have past experience in running their own businesses, and they know that it's not as easy as it may sound or seem.

    Chances are that one can make a great success and move forward with something like this. I know I have made a success until thusfar, and it takes alot of hard work.

    One problem could be running a team. I am currently running a 'one man business' so everything is up to me. But the moment that you are working together as a team, there could be some conflicts and issues involved in getting everything to work as desired. (teams are usually friends, and sometimes friends and business don't go that well together...and sometimes they realize it when it's too late.)
    And so I got lost in code...completely asphyxiated by it...

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  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snaily
    You like to suppose that everyone has the same "joys of life". There are people that are perfectly happy spending their lives "getting rich", while ignoring "family time" etc. The act of running a successful business and gaining wealth for some is an end in itself.
    I definitely agree with you here.

    Do I personally think money is the center of the universe? YES, because it is. No one can live in this world without having some sort of currency to buy the things to support life, like food and shelter. (Now, some prefer to outdo this and go for caviar and a mansion, and that is their choice.) Therefore, I am extremely uncomfortable telling someone to just "follow their dream," if that dream is likely not to secure for them the necessities of life. Especially without the education and experience that is often required to work in this industry.
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  13. #88
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    You are really off the mark, imo. Money is certainly NOT the center of the universe. I can think of so many examples of people who thrive without money. I know you'l scoff at these examples, but think of:

    - babies
    - people in nursing homes
    - the President
    - the Pope
    - the very rich
    - the very poor
    - the incarcerated

    etc. So, it appears that in fact, people can live just fine without money. Some of them are blissfully happy without any money at all. Nobody said to just 'follow your dream' without considering the realities of life. The idea was just to avoid 'following money'.

    Money is NOT the center of the universe. After WWII, millions of people all over the world had no currency at all, and many whole currencies were devalued completely. People pushed on. Money is an important aspect of human life, but you need to be realistic about what it is, and it's relationship to success and happiness.
    The fewer our wants, the nearer we resemble the gods. Socrates

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  14. #89
    SitePoint Evangelist Scott.Botkins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Contrid
    I don't think it's about web design or anything specific really.

    Though 'shockbotkins' is in the web development industry, it goes for anything that has to do with taking the risk of launching and running your own business without experience and education.

    People aren't judging him because they don't know anything about the net or web development, but rather because they might have past experience in running their own businesses, and they know that it's not as easy as it may sound or seem.

    Chances are that one can make a great success and move forward with something like this. I know I have made a success until thusfar, and it takes alot of hard work.

    One problem could be running a team. I am currently running a 'one man business' so everything is up to me. But the moment that you are working together as a team, there could be some conflicts and issues involved in getting everything to work as desired. (teams are usually friends, and sometimes friends and business don't go that well together...and sometimes they realize it when it's too late.)
    I have noticed some people say go to college to get your degree and stuff like that, I believe you should if you don't know what you're doing. I myself believe I don't need college to make it in the business and I'll explain why.

    When I was 13 (I'm now 20) I sat down and began my first website on geocities lol those were the days. Anyways, from that day forward I self taught myself every single day for 6-10 hours a day, I did not take one day off unless if it was vacation of course. I learned html, java/perl, php/mysql, css all on my own, I'm still learning new things up until this day, I then learned graphic design using photoshop to design my websites, I got that down really good now, about 2 years ago I was horrible but now I can create anything. Now for the business side of things, I've been lucky to meet some mentors that have helped me along the way, my grandma had 13 children, all but 2 run there own business so I learn from them. Last year I was very fortunate to be able to teach a web design class, I actually knew a few more things than the teacher.

    Now on the money issue, I'm after one thing and that's a house. I'm 20 now, I'm saving all my money to buy a house for $300k in cash or atleast $200k by age 25, I'm in good hands to do just that because I save my money. I don't want anything else, I already have a nice car (Ford Explorer), and that's all I need because I'm not a materialistic person, fancy cars or stuff like that doesn't bring excitement to me, it never has.

    Now will I go to college? I highly doubt it because I believe I can make it without it, I work hard and smart at my business because I'm very passionate about it. This is my first actual year running my web design business, I've made 10's of thousands in profits and some of you have given me that chance to do so by choosing my services and I thank you for that. I may go to college if I see a brick wall in my business, but I don't believe in failure anymore, I look at it as a learning experience and go at it even harder next time, I see college as just an option now.

    Okay now my book is done.

    Oh & PS: I noticed some talk about money being the universe, I don't believe it is, the best things in life are free, money just gives us a roof over our head to share with the ones we love.

  15. #90
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    I don't see how babies, the President, and the very rich come into it, as they either have lots of money, or are too young to even KNOW what the concept of happiness is, let alone feel and recognize the emotion.

    You ARE right...some people--like the homeless--are perfectly happy without money. And even I'll admit, money is SUCH a stressor, so, to some, it's better not to have any, because then you have one less thing to worry about. However, I think it's wrong to set the bar so low for someone just coming out of high school. He does need money--if he doesn't, he will NOT be able to move out of his parents' house, meaning he could continue to be a victim of their scrutiny. (And if I'm not wrong, that's what started this thread in the first place, because this hasn't brought him happiness.) Now, if he does to go to school, work for a company, earn some money, and decides that it's not for him, that's his choice and since it is, he will be happy with whatever decision he makes. But in order for someone to make a life-changing decision, they need to have experience with all of the options. (Now, for some who are in poverty, they don't have this luxury, but this young man is actually in a position to see what an improved condition is like, given more schooling and experience.)
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  16. #91
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockbotkins
    I have noticed some people say go to college to get your degree and stuff like that, I believe you should if you don't know what you're doing. I myself believe I don't need college to make it in the business and I'll explain why.

    When I was 13 (I'm now 20) I sat down and began my first website on geocities lol those were the days. Anyways, from that day forward I self taught myself every single day for 6-10 hours a day, I did not take one day off unless if it was vacation of course. I learned html, java/perl, php/mysql, css all on my own, I'm still learning new things up until this day, I then learned graphic design using photoshop to design my websites, I got that down really good now, about 2 years ago I was horrible but now I can create anything. Now for the business side of things, I've been lucky to meet some mentors that have helped me along the way, my grandma had 13 children, all but 2 run there own business so I learn from them. Last year I was very fortunate to be able to teach a web design class, I actually knew a few more things than the teacher.

    Now on the money issue, I'm after one thing and that's a house. I'm 20 now, I'm saving all my money to buy a house for $300k in cash or atleast $200k by age 25, I'm in good hands to do just that because I save my money. I don't want anything else, I already have a nice car (Ford Explorer), and that's all I need because I'm not a materialistic person, fancy cars or stuff like that doesn't bring excitement to me, it never has.

    Now will I go to college? I highly doubt it because I believe I can make it without it, I work hard and smart at my business because I'm very passionate about it. This is my first actual year running my web design business, I've made 10's of thousands in profits and some of you have given me that chance to do so by choosing my services and I thank you for that. I may go to college if I see a brick wall in my business, but I don't believe in failure anymore, I look at it as a learning experience and go at it even harder next time, I see college as just an option now.

    Okay now my book is done.

    Oh & PS: I noticed some talk about money being the universe, I don't believe it is, the best things in life are free, money just gives us a roof over our head to share with the ones we love.

    One thing you don't seem to be learning on your own is grammar. Just because you are making money doesn't mean you are educated. Don't you see any value in education at all?

    You said you weren't a materialistic person, but you also said that the only thing you wanted was a house. How can you reconlise those thoughts?

    I think that at age 20, it's risky to try and predict what you'll want for the rest of your lfe. I am happy that you are successful, but keep an open mind
    The fewer our wants, the nearer we resemble the gods. Socrates

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  17. #92
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perfectionist121
    I don't see how babies, the President, and the very rich come into it, as they either have lots of money, or are too young to even KNOW what the concept of happiness is, let alone feel and recognize the emotion.
    If you don't think babies can be happy, I don't really know what to say next so we can call it a moot point
    The fewer our wants, the nearer we resemble the gods. Socrates

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  18. #93
    SitePoint Evangelist Scott.Botkins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sagewing
    One thing you don't seem to be learning on your own is grammar. Just because you are making money doesn't mean you are educated. Don't you see any value in education at all?

    You said you weren't a materialistic person, but you also said that the only thing you wanted was a house. How can you reconlise those thoughts?

    I think that at age 20, it's risky to try and predict what you'll want for the rest of your lfe. I am happy that you are successful, but keep an open mind
    I do apologize for my grammar, I will admit I don't pay much attention to it on these forums, I used to never post on message boards until the past year or so, I've always looked at them as just chit-chat.

    But for the house explanation, it's the only thing I want because ever since I was little I wanted a family house with nice backyard so I can have fun with my future wife and kids, to be a better parent than my parents because I didn't have the experience of knowing my real dad because I didn't see him as my parents divorced. But yea, I don't look at the house thing as being a materialistic person, it's just something that I've always wanted so I can experience a family oriented place.

  19. #94
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    shockbotkins, I thought that the issue of you going to college was a subject closed in a previous thread that I remember too well.

    You can make it without college nor university, of course you can. It is also true that it will be harder because you will lack certain basic things that you only gain through making studying your main job (that means going to college). But you will always be unable to know the advantages of a degree.

    If you work smart now, chances are that if you went to college, your work would be much smarter and improved. But your goal is other, and that's OK. It is your life, yours is the decision.

    No, money doesn't rule the universe. I know. I never had it. And I was perfectly happy. That doesn't mean that you don't need it. When something important happens (like that you have to take care of someone with chronic disease), money does make a difference.

    Another thing that you can't appreciate because you didn't live it yourself is what being part of a big family means. Your grandmother had 13 children... Great... How many brothers and sisters do you have? We are 10 siblings. I know what your mother/father went through. You watch it indirectly.

    edit: It really makes me cross to see how you waste opportunities that others dream of. You think that your parents are putting a lot of pressure on you, and so they are, for your own good. But are you better than your parents? Honestly, I can't be 100% sure. A forum is not like knowing you. But I have the impression that you aren't, only that you have decided to go the other way around. Still, the best of luck for you.

  20. #95
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    If you don't get a house, will you still be just as good of a dad? When you are a dad, will you teach your kids that they'll need a house to be a 'better' dad? Houses are nice, but there are plenty of families in the US that are wallowing in debt and falling apart because of their mortgage. A happy family with good finances will enjoy a house, but an unhappy family will only get unhappier with the pressures of home ownership.

    Concentrate on the 'family oriented' first and the house will come. A house can be knocked down and rebuilt (which is happening a lot here in Louisiana) but a family can't always be.

    You should be proud of how far you've come. It's enough to be a good person and keep going. You'll get what you need, and probably what you want, too.
    The fewer our wants, the nearer we resemble the gods. Socrates

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  21. #96
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    Sagewing--You do bring up good points and, ultimately, you are right. Family is what counts, and I grew up with many kids that were poor, but were still happy. However, there were others that, as they grew up, suffered the consequences of a splintered family, (getting into drugs, getting arrested), because the parents were too busy working several jobs--ones that were not their "dream jobs"--to support the family, that they didn't have time to actually raise their children. This was normally the majority of the cases.

    It sounds like Scott's ultimate goal is to be a good dad. While I will agree that he doesn't necessarily need a $300K house to do that, if he isn't somehow able to adequately support his family, (meaning that he doesn't have to work like a dog just to make ends meet), he won't reach his goal, because he will not be able to spend the time with his kids like he would if he had made money more of a priority NOW, in order to build up a nest egg to support his future family. And especially if he wants a $300K house by 25, how would you suggest he fund that within such a limited amount of time if making money isn't important to him?? Even if, without an education or any real-life business experience, his business was a runaway success, that would still be a tough goal to reach.

    I will agree that money isn't everything to everyone. However, it's a personal choice, and whether you need it or not, based on your personal goals in life. (Like someone before me said, some peoples' goals ARE to make a lot of money and run a successful business, and that's what makes THEM happy.) With Scott's goals, he needs it--badly--especially since he does not, at least at this point, have the knowledge and experience that others have.
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  22. #97
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    Those are good observations, and I agree. I think what concerns me is the exageration of the 'house = success' concept. For example: why a 300k house? Why not a 100k house? Or, why age 25? Why not age 35? Why not 23?

    If he gets a $250k house at age 29, will he be dissapointed?

    Why not just settle for the real goal: to reach a financially secure place in your life, whatever that means at the time. To think that a house of a certain value by a certain age will result in certain happiness is to miss the whole point of it all.

    That said, he is young and will learn as he goes. So, the fact that he's ambitious will serve him well!
    The fewer our wants, the nearer we resemble the gods. Socrates

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  23. #98
    Cha, Cha, Cha!!! Gamermk's Avatar
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    Hope you are paying taxes on all that income

    Personally, I hate that everyone immediately jumps to the idea that in order for you to justify yourself as a web designer that you have to be making tons of money and throw it in your family's face.

    This capitalistic point of view is horrible. What you need to make your family understand is that this is who you are and this is what you love to do and that you trust that they will accept you for the person you are based on the choices you have made in life.

    This envy of a "real job" is everywhere. My friends with manual labour jobs say the same to me since they have to do what they call "real work" while I sit in an office chair. They think I can just take days off whenever I want and that I don't require any sleep to do my job like theirs.

    My advice is to surround yourself with the people that understand you. When it comes to family make them understand you, not your work and don't ever fall back on the easy way of justifying work by throwing money in their face. All throwing money in their face leads to is your family resenting you and worse yet, should you fail they will be saying "I told you so" instead of "How can I help?"
    People don't read ads. They read what interests them,
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  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockbotkins
    Now will I go to college? I highly doubt it because I believe I can make it without it, I work hard and smart at my business because I'm very passionate about it.
    How will you know if you need college or not if you don't even try, though? I agree...you seem to know the technical aspects of your field very well, and to achieve that at a young age is awesome! But you could always learn more, and the bigger issue is that you don't have any business experience. You have your aunts/uncles who have their own businesses to help you, and that's great--that's kind of what I was talking about with going to work for a company...observing their practices--but unless you live within it every day and have to deal with it--like you would working on the staff of an established company--a supplemental education in business would be needed, or the other self-employed individuals who HAVE more knowledge and experience would beat you out of the jobs.

    And I will NEVER put down passion. Almost any industry needs it. However, passion alone will rarely get you anywhere, unless you use your passionate drive wisely to do what is needed to achieve your goals. I'm sorry, but I do not believe you are doing this, as you have a very big goal to get to in only five years, and statistics say that without more of an education, you probably will not reach it.

    This is my first actual year running my web design business, I've made 10's of thousands in profits
    But "10's of thousands" will probably not get you a $200-$300K house in five years. Even if it does, you'll have little left and you'll be in a nice house, but you'll be in debt. And unless business is BOOMING, a small business that you run yourself will likely help you get out of it in time to raise the kids.

    Seriously, I'm not putting down your dreams. I admire that they're big, and that you have the confidence that you can reach them. But you have to be realistic, too, and this is very much a "rags to riches"-type story, given your lack of education and real-world experience. And we don't see "rags to riches" stories everyday anymore... It's a rare case, with a vast majority of the country not being in the "riches" category.

    Oh & PS: I noticed some talk about money being the universe, I don't believe it is, the best things in life are free, money just gives us a roof over our head to share with the ones we love.
    You're right, but given your background and the dreams you have, money probably needs to be more of a priority than it is right now.
    Terri Eades - Web/Graphic Designer - www.terrieades.com

  25. #100
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    Money = freedom to do what you enjoy. Freedom to do what you enjoy = happiness.

    I enjoy this line of work, but I want nothing more than to retire in my 30's a millionaire and spend the rest of my life in my castle in the mountains tending my garden, writing novels, and throwing pumpkins with the miniature trebuchet in the back yard.
    Chris Beasley - I publish content and ecommerce sites.
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