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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by tke71709
    You do realize that you live in a country where people will sue for the smallest thing don't you? The fact that a lawsuit has been filed does not mean that it has any merit.



    I agree, therefore I will cease reading this thread due to it being started with anonymous and ill-informed opinions.

    If you want to *****, then *****, but don't expect the world to agree with you and get upset when it doesn't.
    Mate, you are so far off the mark that it doesn't matter.

    I'm in Australia. We couldn't begin to think about some of the legal actions that are run in America, which is where the actions in the links are running. Then again, America has since about 1776 been a beacon of liberty and the source of some of the best statements and policies of liberty, despite many sad and occasionally terrible failings in their implementation.

    As you won't be reading this it doesn't matter what I think about your views, but I am more than a little confused by your comment
    "If you want to *****, then *****, but don't expect the world to agree with you and get upset when it doesn't."

    It's a pity you won't be reading this, let alone posting again, because I have no idea what the statement with all the asterisks could possibly mean.

    It's never a good idea to deal yourself out of the hand before you know what you've been dealt.

  2. #27
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    Ignore.

    Double post.

  3. #28
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    Ignore again.

    For some reason there seems to have been a very long delay before my posts appear, to the extent that I thought they had failed. A couple of posts appeared while I was waiting for my last post to appear.

    No doubt this is due to MS penalising me for criticising it.

    And just in case some over-serious tosser misses it, there was a smilie at the end of the last sentence!

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sagewing
    Not to mention the fact that both of those articles relate to different issues than your 'illegal pop-up' that you are so bent out of shape over. Nice try, though.
    The plaintiffs seem to take a different view,

  5. #30
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    Deep breath.
    The fewer our wants, the nearer we resemble the gods. Socrates

    SAGEWING LLC - QUALITY WEB AND MOBILE APPS. PREMIUM OUTSOURCING SERVICES.
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  6. #31
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    Ignore.

    Double post.
    Last edited by szn; Jul 20, 2006 at 09:56.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartmann
    The fact that you clicked the little box that says "You Agree to these Terms" is the "clause". You agreed to the software in the download and in those terms it probably mentioned something about pop-ups, etc.
    Righto!

    Let's make sure that from now on everyone who downloads everything from the net is rigidly bound by the extensive terms imposed upon them by the radio boxes they click.

    How many people do you know, including yourself, who have carefully read every word in every contract before clicking the 'Agree" etc box to download?

    How many people know that by clicking it they have agreed to submit to the law of Florida or Belgium or Belarus or Taiwan in Clause 734 or 127 or 426, etc etc etc?

    How many of the alleged millions of eBay users have ever read one, let alone all, of the thousands of pages which eBay (quite stupidly for anyone who knows how read a contract) claims applies to the user's right to buy or sell on eBay?

    We are in the realm of intergalactic ******** when people want to point to extraordinarily complex and lengthy trans-national contracts which most lawyers in any country coulndn't understand, let alone the poor saps who supposedly are subject to them.

    For those who want to assert that someone is subject to, say, a Microsoft contract, what law applies when someone from Afghanistan is supposedly subject to the law of Florida because he or she unsealed the packet in Pakistan but loaded the CD onto a laptop in Australia which was then used in Britain to save material which was downloaded in Sri Lanka?

    I'm pleased that people in this thread are so clear and confident of the law.

    It's a pity that there are major international law firms which have thousands of highly skilled lawyers from the best law schools around the world whose accumulated knowledge on what they thought were complicated legal issues can be so readily resolved by the eminent legal opinion on this site.

  8. #33
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    Wow you are going to burst!
    The fewer our wants, the nearer we resemble the gods. Socrates

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  9. #34
    chown linux:users\ /world Hartmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by szn
    Righto!

    Let's make sure that from now on everyone who downloads everything from the net is rigidly bound by the extensive terms imposed upon them by the radio boxes they click.

    How many people do you know, including yourself, who have carefully read every word in every contract before clicking the 'Agree" etc box to download?

    How many people know that by clicking it they have agreed to submit to the law of Florida or Belgium or Belarus or Taiwan in Clause 734 or 127 or 426, etc etc etc?

    How many of the alleged millions of eBay users have ever read one, let alone all, of the thousands of pages which eBay (quite stupidly for anyone who knows how read a contract) claims applies to the user's right to buy or sell on eBay?

    We are in the realm of intergalactic ******** when people want to point to extraordinarily complex and lengthy trans-national contracts which most lawyers in any country coulndn't understand, let alone the poor saps who supposedly are subject to them.

    For those who want to assert that someone is subject to, say, a Microsoft contract, what law applies when someone from Afghanistan is supposedly subject to the law of Florida because he or she unsealed the packet in Pakistan but loaded the CD onto a laptop in Australia which was then used in Britain to save material which was downloaded in Sri Lanka?

    I'm pleased that people in this thread are so clear and confident of the law.

    It's a pity that there are major international law firms which have thousands of highly skilled lawyers from the best law schools around the world whose accumulated knowledge on what they thought were complicated legal issues can be so readily resolved by the eminent legal opinion on this site.
    It does not matter if you read the terms or not, that is not what you agreed to. You agreed to the terms, it is your responsibility to read through them.

    Your scenario is technically illegal I believe. People must use the software that is licensed for their country.

    There is a lot of problems with the system, I am not saying it's perfect. What I am saying is that you agreed to the terms, end of story. It's true that there is a lot of stuff hidden in the terms, there was an incident of this with some software not too long ago where a valid company allowed spyware to be installed along with it because people agreed to it.

    Yes, people are fairly confident of the law here, a lot of us have experience with a range of scenarios.

  10. #35
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    Here we go again, with the double posts.

    I accept that Australia is down the bottom of the planet and that we have to speak louder on telephones to project our voices to the top of the planet, but I can't undestand why my posts are taking quite a few minutes to appear.

    Anyway, I'm sorry for the double posts, corrections etc.

    Given the continuous mistakes, one could be forgiven for thinking that the Australian Government was responsible for this.

    The difference is that I apologise for my mistakes as, unlike my national government, I make mistakes.

    I am sorry for whatever I might have done to cause these problems.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartmann
    It does not matter if you read the terms or not, that is not what you agreed to. You agreed to the terms, it is your responsibility to read through them.
    It may be critical whether or not the buyer has read the terms. This has been the subject of countless articles by computer law experts in endless articles trying to devise ways of locking in users by means such as clickiing the 'I Agree' radio button.

    Getting back to basic principles, which too often are forgotten in esoteric legal and academic dissertations, the essence of any contract is agreement.

    If one party has not read the terms of the 'contract' which the other party wishes to enforce, it is always debatable whether there can have been any agreement to found the alleged contract upon which the action is based.

    There is a vast range of international jurisdictional and contract law issues, among other things, upon which one could impugn the usual detailed and extensive terms of software licences (unilateral licences being distinct from contracts), but the one thing which is routinely ignored, in my jurisdiction anyway, is the various consumer protection provisions about unfair and unconscionable etc terms. Many unilaterally disproportionate software contracts would fail on those grounds

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sagewing
    Wow you are going to burst!
    I doubt it.

    You ought to see me when there is an issue I really care about. Once I got slightly pink in the right knee, which would not have happened if the Archbishop had been more willing to hear me.

  13. #38
    King of Paralysis by Analysis bronze trophy
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    I saw so many posts I had to look at them lol.

    Here's my tip to you.

    Edit > Delete Post

    That'll solve your double posting problems.

  14. #39
    chown linux:users\ /world Hartmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by szn
    It may be critical whether or not the buyer has read the terms. This has been the subject of countless articles by computer law experts in endless articles trying to devise ways of locking in users by means such as clickiing the 'I Agree' radio button.

    Getting back to basic principles, which too often are forgotten in esoteric legal and academic dissertations, the essence of any contract is agreement.

    If one party has not read the terms of the 'contract' which the other party wishes to enforce, it is always debatable whether there can have been any agreement to found the alleged contract upon which the action is based.

    There is a vast range of international jurisdictional and contract law issues, among other things, upon which one could impugn the usual detailed and extensive terms of software licences (unilateral licences being distinct from contracts), but the one thing which is routinely ignored, in my jurisdiction anyway, is the various consumer protection provisions about unfair and unconscionable etc terms. Many unilaterally disproportionate software contracts would fail on those grounds
    The fact of the matter is, you can lie. You can say you had never read the agreement (even you had) and therefore not held accountable. Trying to "cop out" works both ways.

    There is a precedent here. You click the agree button, then you agree, whether or not you read the material, well, that's up to you.

  15. #40
    Employed Again Viflux's Avatar
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    People have tried the "who really reads the TOS?" argument with the recording industry.

    That's an industry where you have to buy the product, and open (therefore voiding any potential return), BEFORE reading the TOS. And STILL the courts ruled in the favor of the recording industry.

    All I can say is good luck mate

  16. #41
    SitePoint Addict dionsiseire's Avatar
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    the checkbox thing is such a bad item to pick your arguement grounding on

    its called a click wrap and by clicking it you are agree-ing that you have read the terms and conditions regardless of weather you did or not, therefore you just have absolutely no arguement anywhere.

    if you clicked and chose to download and microsoft update. you have agreed that even if the update breaks your PC you chose to download it, and your actions are your own problem and only you can be held accountable.

    there isnt even an arguement here, you have no legal grounding anywhere in your problem, microsoft have not hacked your pc and place a pop up. unlike your fbi concept, you have agreed that microsoft can install this piece of software.

    not only that, any virus's and malware you may download while on your pc are not the problem of anyone bar yourself as the pc is not to blame for the fault 80% of the time. if you CHOOSE to download the email that contains a virus, or CHOOSE to click the links on a phishing email , you have only yourself to blame, not any company whom may make software , make THE piece of software or OS for any matter.

    i am not a lawyer, im studying computer science and law is one of the modules and from everything we studied you havnt a leg to stand.

  17. #42
    chown linux:users\ /world Hartmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dionsiseire
    not only that, any virus's and malware you may download while on your pc are not the problem of anyone bar yourself as the pc is not to blame for the fault 80% of the time. if you CHOOSE to download the email that contains a virus, or CHOOSE to click the links on a phishing email , you have only yourself to blame, not any company whom may make software , make THE piece of software or OS for any matter.
    Steering a little away from the original purpose of the thread, but I think that link clicking and e-mail downloading is a little different. You can be tricked into doing those things with false promises and incorrect information. With a clickbox, the point is obvious, "Do you accept the terms of the above agreement?" and that's it. However, with a link, it could say "Click here for $1,000,000" and instead, it steals your bank info. That's different.

  18. #43
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    Microsoft is licensed todo so .Be careful of the big bad wolf!
    http://tinyurl.com
    http://tinyurl.com
    http://tinyurl.com
    http://tinyurl.com

  19. #44
    Employed Again Viflux's Avatar
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  20. #45
    Non-Member demosfen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beley
    Nope, but I'm thinking of going back to school and getting a law degree just so I can stop typing that all the time!
    Just add it to your signiture! Whatever you do, please don't go to lawyer school, because there is a lot of lawyers in hell and it's hot there!

  21. #46
    SitePoint Guru Majglow's Avatar
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    Microsoft doesn't ask your permission either when windows freezes up... damnit, I don't want windows to freeze up unless I give permission to microsoft in writing!

    Now, what's my lawyer's number again?
    Ohai!

  22. #47
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    Well, it seems that some people are even more aggrieved about it than me, and prepared to start class actions to pursue their grievances.
    http://www.publicknowledge.org/node/508

    One writ claims that WGA can wrongly identify Windows as not genuine, which is exactly what motivated my complaint about it, and which the quotes at the end of the previous article show is a problem even on brand new instals from reputable suppliers.
    http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/dayart...sftwgasuit.pdf at paragraph 21

    In the fullness of time, we'll see whether the confident legal opinions expressed in this thread about MS's right to do whatever it feels like are upheld by the courts.

    P.S. Windows Genuine Advantage is just more Orwellian Newspeak. I don't get any advantage out of having genuine Windows, unless you think nag boxes are an advantage. If they were, I would have thought MS would have installed them with the original Windows. What WGA really stands for is "Windows Goes Apesh!t" and MS does its usual King Kong act, just because it can.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by szn
    If I put a nag box on the CIA's computer I'd probably spend the rest of my life in gaol,
    That's not true.
    If they are using software made by you, when they run it, you can show them whatever popup you want.
    A popup suing that they have 30 days to register the program or whatever will never cause any problems.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vali
    That's not true.
    If they are using software made by you, when they run it, you can show them whatever popup you want.
    A popup suing that they have 30 days to register the program or whatever will never cause any problems.
    Maybe. But none of that happened with WGA, which just came out as a 'click on' necessary update with no notifications about what it would do.

    In the highly unlikely event that you happen to be someone who supplies the CIA, why don't you insert some spyware into your program and see how the CIA reacts when they find out that their computer is sending info to your computer?

    Better still, do it with MS and see how happy they are about it. MS has more power than the CIA.

    I mean, why can't I send MS, or the CIA or anyone else, or just you, an email saying that if you click on it you're bound by its terms and then crawl around your whole system and do anything I like to it?

    In the end, this is just a conflict between supposedly deluded people like me who want to uphold liberty of the individual against the majority of those who want to uphold the might is right sector. Until, of course, the latter group get burnt when they find out that their confidence in 'the system' has been misplaced and they want to rely on the principles and rights that troublemakers like me fight for when everyone else thinks it's just peachy to get what they're given by government and big business.

  25. #50
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    Wow I just noticed this tread is still going on!

    szn, take a deep breath, start installing linux, and avoid conspiracy theories.
    The fewer our wants, the nearer we resemble the gods. Socrates

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