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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sagewing
    szn, take a deep breath, start installing linux, and avoid conspiracy theories.
    Mate, tell the people who are suing MS!

    There's a world of difference between a conspiracy theory, which no lawyer will sue upon, and good grounds for a claim with supporting facts which support a legal argument, which lawyers will sue upon.

    Let's say that the lawyers in these cases are running them on a no-win, no-fee basis, which is widely regarded by people who don't understand such arrangements as the next thing to the devil. The fact is that the lawyers are backing their judgment of the merits of the case as it's their money that runs the case. They don't back dead horses.

    Or, let's say that the client is funding it. People don't put up their money for such expensive cases unless they strongly believe in the rightness of their cause, with or without supporting legal advice, or they have very deep pockets. Or both.

  2. #52
    Employed Again Viflux's Avatar
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    Strongly believing in something does not make it so, even if you hold a Law Degree.

    That said, I believe there is a case here.

    Not on the grounds you originally stated, but on the grounds that it erroneously detects legitimate copies as pirated.

  3. #53
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    snz: I don't know where to begin to resopnd to your rant, but there wasn't much of a point to it so I wont.

    Vfilux: Interesting legal analysis, but since when is there a lay against that? That's like sueing every software manufacturuer who releases software with a bug.
    The fewer our wants, the nearer we resemble the gods. Socrates

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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sagewing
    snz: I don't know where to begin to resopnd to your rant, but there wasn't much of a point to it so I wont.
    So why say anything? If you had a meaningful response I'm sure you couldn't have resisted presenting it.

    Vfilux: Interesting legal analysis, but since when is there a lay against that? That's like sueing every software manufacturuer who releases software with a bug.
    Yes, we wouldn't want people who put defective products on the market being held liable for them, would we?

    Clearly every legislature in the Western world has been off on a mad frolic for the past 40 years by continually beefing up consumer protection laws.

    It must be a real burden for you living a world where consumer protection groups and every government in every developed country aren't willing to allow manufacturers and sellers to put any old rubbish on the market. If it wasn't for such pansies, we'd still have thalidomide, asbestos, cars with exploding fuel tanks and all the other benefits we had not so long ago.

    Given your views, I expect that when you buy a car you won't mind if it kills your family because of a minor bug in the chip that controls the anti-lock braking system; or that when you go to hospital you won't mind if they cut off your leg instead of an ingrown toenail due a minor bug in the hospital's patient record computer system; and so on.

    And you definitely wouldn't want to sue anybody if anything like that happened to you, because they're only bugs in software, and we should all be eternally grateful for anything that the software industry delivers to us upon its own terms for its exclusive commercial benefit.

  5. #55
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    And for those people who have so confidently taken the position that I'm totally off the planet for even beginning to think that there could possibly be the slightest risk of criminal action flowing from MS interfering with the computers of people using Windows, it seems that MS's top-gun lawyers and MS as a corporation are even stupider than me because not only did they see the risk of criminal action but they acknowledge it on the MS site.

    "Computer trespass laws restrict Microsoft's ability to update software on consumers' machines without their consent. By consenting to and "turning on" Automatic Updates, consumers permit Microsoft to send them updates when they connect to the Internet."

    http://www.microsoft.com/about/corpo...echnology.mspx

    MS has tried to avoid the criminal risk by getting ostensible user consent, but nowhere is it made clear to the average user that by agreeing to use various things, such as Automatic Updates, to which they are carefully steered by MS, they will allow MS to interfere with their computer which, without that apparent consent, would be a criminal offence of computer trespass. And maybe still is, given the way that 'consent' is obtained in a fairly devious way by soothing words in the material steering people towards signing up which indicate that the traffic is one way: i.e. MS will send them stuff. Nothing is said about MS doing things to their computer.

    It's all very well to rely upon the specific words of the clicked user agreement, but where that agreement is different to other material provided by MS it would be unwise to assume that the agreement will prevail.

    Anyone who thinks that the precise terms of a contract procured by misrepresentation will always prevail over contrary material by the dominant contracting party which induced the contract is living in the past, in both the civil and criminal jurisdictions in many countries.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viflux
    That said, I believe there is a case here.

    Not on the grounds you originally stated, but on the grounds that it erroneously detects legitimate copies as pirated.
    If you go back to my original post, that is exactly the point I made and the basis of my grievance.

    "Recently I have been getting a popup from Microsoft that my Windows is not genuine. It is a full-on PITA nag box that pops up just about any time anything different happens on my computer. I'd mind it a lot less if (a) my Windows really wasn't genuine and (b) it hadn't started after I made the foolish mistake of trying to download yet another of the many Microsoft fixes for its notoriously defective products which, up to that point, had always recognised my system as genuine. Apparently it's my fault that Microsoft's system can't recognise its own genuine products."

    Most posters seem to think that my problem is that I agreed to something that said this would be fine with me and that I should shut up about it because the MS 'contract', in their highly educated legal views, says I have to put up with whatever MS chooses to give me and whatever it chooses to do my computer.

    Meanwhile. I'm still p!ssed off that I didn't agree to anything like this and MS has systems which are so poor that, like the litigants in my earlier links, my system has been interfered with by a bunch of incompetents who, according to the dominant view in posts so far, have every right to screw me over because they can.

  7. #57
    SitePoint Addict dionsiseire's Avatar
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    i dont know why you continue to sully the name of microsoft, it really is beyond me that after 3 pages of people telling you your wrong, you continue,

    Microsoft do not produce products any more defective than linux or Mac OS or Solaris. Microsofts products happen to be the reason why computers are no longer for only nerds and now all people of most intellect can use a PC, yes the product needs occasional updates to sort issue, but so does mac, solaris, linux. vbulletin itself ( this very forum software ) throws out security updates every so often, there isnt a product on the net that is perfect. so why not give it a rest already.

    And lets think for 2 seconds why microsoft needs most of the updates it releases

    Software Piracy
    Hackers, Spammer, Malware

    Microsoft is THE most targetted software in the world, people sit at home looking for ways to wreck the PC, and successfully do a lot of the time. but if you sat and looked for ways into linux and mac OSX or solaris, you would eventually find such issue's, they are ever present. microsoft's pure size means you have to deal with this crap, not because microsoft is any worse a software company, its because assholes ruin pc's for others.

    Now microsoft gives you OPTIONS when it comes to updates

    MANUALLY DOWNLOAD FROM WINDOWS UPDATE
    or
    AUTO UPDATE

    as you showed above microsoft cover themselves with auto update so if YOU enabled AUTO UPDATE, then saddle your horse and turn around because not a court in the land would back you.

    if you go to the windows update website and CHOOSE to download WGA, then by god go get that horse cause you'll be sadling up momentarily.

    NOW

    lets get to the real problem at hand

    microsofts WGA supposedly has a bug, let me be the first to say ive WGA and it picks up my copy fine

    therefore the product works

    so lets go on step deeper than that

    your system has fundamental changes to it ( possibly the changes of a spyware, malware or virus ) causing microsoft to believe your copy is not legitimate.

    now if that is the case as may very well be ( dont come back with this bull crap of you have every anti virus and spam and malware protection , i wont believe a word ) then once again microsoft are not to blame

    so lets examine all our options right here right now

    CONTACT MICROSOFT FOR ASSITANCE
    KILL ALL PEOPLE WHO PIRATE SOFTWARE
    KILL ALL PEOPLE WHO WRITE VIRUS, MALWARE, SPAM

    CONTACT MICROSOFT FOR ASSITANCE
    wow didnt we mention this at the start, in fact its possibly THE smartest option available, microsoft has openly said it will assist users with problems with the WGA system to continue its efforts against piracy

    if you had ANY common sense in your body this problem would be done and dusted by now.

    KILL ALL PEOPLE WHO PIRATE SOFTWARE
    effective but might take a while, they are wordlwide and some are pretty rough guys, dont wanna mess with these people

    KILL ALL PEOPLE WHO WRITE VIRUS, MALWARE, SPAM
    again, its a tedious task, but someone will be glad you went to the effort.

    so i ask you simply

    what be your problem here.
    legally you have no case, you opted in
    so can you PLEASE go find something else to moan about and ring microsoft for assistance , i believe you'll find the bright bulb in the lamp starts here

    http://support.microsoft.com/contactus/?ws=mscom

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by dionsiseire
    i dont know why you continue to sully the name of microsoft, it really is beyond me that after 3 pages of people telling you your wrong, you continue,
    Well, I've always been persistent when I think I'm right.

    Such as earlier this year when everybody, and most notably eBay, told me that eBay could allow stuff to be put in my auctions that I didn't authorise and there wasn't a thing I could do about it. Funny how eBay's legal people suddenly got interested when I was on the point of issuing proceedings and then made the problem go away.

    microsofts WGA supposedly has a bug, let me be the first to say ive WGA and it picks up my copy fine

    therefore the product works

    so lets go on step deeper than that

    your system has fundamental changes to it ( possibly the changes of a spyware, malware or virus ) causing microsoft to believe your copy is not legitimate.

    now if that is the case as may very well be ( dont come back with this bull crap of you have every anti virus and spam and malware protection , i wont believe a word ) then once again microsoft are not to blame

    so lets examine all our options right here right now

    CONTACT MICROSOFT FOR ASSITANCE
    KILL ALL PEOPLE WHO PIRATE SOFTWARE
    KILL ALL PEOPLE WHO WRITE VIRUS, MALWARE, SPAM

    CONTACT MICROSOFT FOR ASSITANCE
    wow didnt we mention this at the start, in fact its possibly THE smartest option available, microsoft has openly said it will assist users with problems with the WGA system to continue its efforts against piracy
    I'm not sure that pirating software and writing or, more importantly, propagating viruses etc require extra-judicial executions, but so far as WGA and MS is concerned you're putting the cart before the horse. If I have a legit copy of Windows and WGA isn't capable of picking it up under all circumstances, why is it my problem and why do I have to do anything to sort it out? All I want is that MS lets me use Windows like it's operated since purchase and doesn't interfere with my computer because MS programmed whatever deficiencies it has into WGA or Windows or SP2 or whatever. How about instead of assisting customers with WGA problems, MS makes sure it's right before it starts using it, then customers wouldn't have to waste their time fixing up MS's mistakes?


    legally you have no case, you opted in
    I do wish that people who keep telling me this would accept that this remains to be determined by the courts, in at least two cases to which I have provided links.


    so can you PLEASE go find something else to moan about
    What would be acceptable to you?

    The excessive cost of MS products? IE deficiencies? Or maybe I should just start a praise thread about what a great corporation MS is, seeing how I've stirred up the MS Cheer Squad?

  9. #59
    chown linux:users\ /world Hartmann's Avatar
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    Thinking you're right and being right are two different things. Quite frankly, I'm surprised this topic lasted as long as it did.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartmann
    Thinking you're right and being right are two different things. Quite frankly, I'm surprised this topic lasted as long as it did.
    The court proceedings are going to last a lot longer. Then we'll all know who's right.

    Probably by a 4-3 majority.

  11. #61
    chown linux:users\ /world Hartmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by szn
    The court proceedings are going to last a lot longer. Then we'll all know who's right.

    Probably by a 4-3 majority.
    So you are actually taking this Microsoft thing to court? I don't really care about your eBay case because that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartmann
    So you are actually taking this Microsoft thing to court? I don't really care about your eBay case because that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

    Does anyone who posts in this thread bother to read anything that went before the latest post before they posted, let alone read any of the relevant links that might actually inform them on what is going on in the courts as distinct from their own fondly held beliefs?

    I'm not suing anyone.

    As I said a few posts above:

    I do wish that people who keep telling me this would accept that this remains to be determined by the courts, in at least two cases to which I have provided links.

  13. #63
    chown linux:users\ /world Hartmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by szn
    Does anyone who posts in this thread bother to read anything that went before the latest post before they posted, let alone read any of the relevant links that might actually inform them on what is going on in the courts as distinct from their own fondly held beliefs?

    I'm not suing anyone.

    As I said a few posts above:

    I do wish that people who keep telling me this would accept that this remains to be determined by the courts, in at least two cases to which I have provided links.
    To be honest, no. I have tried to go back and read all of your posts, but you seem so focused on convincing us that you are right in most of them that I get tired and stop reading. A lot of us here have some sort of legal experience, whether it be from our own encounters with the law or from reading.

    Your posts were all repititive, stating the same information over and over with nothing new. I've read those case links and I really don't think they will lead to the outcome that you want. Click-wrap/shrink-wrap licensing has been around for a while and people have challenged it before, but it has held up. I see nothing in those two cases as being any different.

    On another note, I have read through some of your posts in other threads and every one of them is a complaint/whine about something. You ask people what they think and then get very defensive when they do not answer in a manner that agrees with your point of view.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartmann
    On another note, I have read through some of your posts in other threads and every one of them is a complaint/whine about something. You ask people what they think and then get very defensive when they do not answer in a manner that agrees with your point of view.
    This is an interesting point which clearly requires deep self-examination.

    Could you give me the links where I have done this?

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartmann
    Your posts were all repititive, stating the same information over and over with nothing new.
    This is certainly a worry. I could have sworn that my original post didn't cover all the stuff that appeared in my later posts, but I must be mistaken.

    At least all the posts that contradicted me were all highly original and never covered the same ground.

  16. #66
    chown linux:users\ /world Hartmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by szn
    This is certainly a worry. I could have sworn that my original post didn't cover all the stuff that appeared in my later posts, but I must be mistaken.

    At least all the posts that contradicted me were all highly original and never covered the same ground.
    Yes, the other posts were repititive as well, but there was new insight presented in some of them. The fact of the matter is that you continually hounded the subject, refuting anything that a poster said that was opposite of you.

    I am finished with this conversation, as there is nothing constructive coming from it anymore.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartmann
    The fact of the matter is that you continually hounded the subject, refuting anything that a poster said that was opposite of you.
    Gee, and the people who responded to my posts weren't doing the same? But I guess they're alright because you agree with them, but I'm a hounder and a refuter because I take the opposite position.

    I am finished with this conversation, as there is nothing constructive coming from it anymore.
    I always find it an embarassingly weak, but highly amusing, exit when people make grand accusations, such as that an examination of all my threads shows I am a constant defensive whiner, and when invited to prove it they just slink off in high dudgeon as if they're the ones who've been maligned.

    If you can't argue the point intelligently, don't make a public idiot of yourself by trying to blame me for your own inadequacy.

  18. #68
    He's No Good To Me Dead silver trophybronze trophy stymiee's Avatar
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    SZN: either hold an intelligent debate or stop posting. Personal attacks are not allowed here and will only get you in trouble.

  19. #69
    chown linux:users\ /world Hartmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by szn
    Gee, and the people who responded to my posts weren't doing the same? But I guess they're alright because you agree with them, but I'm a hounder and a refuter because I take the opposite position.
    Ah, I see how you work. You take out part of the post and use it to your advantage and ignore the rest. Please read what I said in whole. Other people's posts were repititive, but some of them did have new, useful, and insightful information.

    Quote Originally Posted by szn
    I always find it an embarassingly weak, but highly amusing, exit when people make grand accusations, such as that an examination of all my threads shows I am a constant defensive whiner, and when invited to prove it they just slink off in high dudgeon as if they're the ones who've been maligned.

    If you can't argue the point intelligently, don't make a public idiot of yourself by trying to blame me for your own inadequacy.

    About "exiting", as a Mentor in these forums it is my job/responsibility to keep threads on topic. We have easily gone astray in this thread with the recent slew of posts. If you would like to continue this conversation you can PM me. Attacking my character (or anyone's for that matter) will not get you far in this forum.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by stymiee
    SZN: either hold an intelligent debate or stop posting. Personal attacks are not allowed here and will only get you in trouble.
    I've been trying to do that. but so far I've been accused of being a moaner, whiner etc that doesn't seem to be regarded as a personal attack.

    Could you let me know where I've gone wrong?

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartmann
    If you would like to continue this conversation you can PM me. Attacking my character (or anyone's for that matter) will not get you far in this forum.
    I don't want to PM you.

    I'm quite happy to conduct this in public.

    You said examination of my threads shows I'm a whiner and defensive when challenged but you still haven't supported it despite me asking you to. Then suddenly a moderator pops up warning me about personal attacks which, apparently, you can make on me but you're sacrosanct.

    I know where this is going to end up as you've shown you have the inside running with the mods as Mentor, but in what are probably the dying moments of this thread I think it's ridiculous for you to get all huffy about alleged assaults on your character when you happily slagged me but wouldn't back it up.

    I'm always happy to carry on a public debate in public and to cop anything that people want to say to me, fair or not. It's a pity that other people aren't so robust, especially when they initiate things and don't like getting responses in kind.

  22. #72
    chown linux:users\ /world Hartmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by szn
    You said examination of my threads shows I'm a whiner and defensive when challenged but you still haven't supported it despite me asking you to. Then suddenly a moderator pops up warning me about personal attacks which, apparently, you can make on me but you're sacrosanct.
    There is a difference in saying your posts are whiny and calling someone an idiot and unintelligent. Sorry if you disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by szn
    I know where this is going to end up as you've shown you have the inside running with the mods as Mentor, but in what are probably the dying moments of this thread I think it's ridiculous for you to get all huffy about alleged assaults on your character when you happily slagged me but wouldn't back it up.
    I am not getting "huffy". I was merely trying to get this thread to either end or go a new direction as there was nothing more coming from it. I didn't "slag" you. I merely pointed out that I felt some posts in other threads were similiar to the ones in this one. The specific thread I was referring to is the "Forum software sucks". Like I said before, you do have some posts that were useful and helpful but this whole thread to me has been a wash.

    Quote Originally Posted by szn
    I'm always happy to carry on a public debate in public and to cop anything that people want to say to me, fair or not. It's a pity that other people aren't so robust, especially when they initiate things and don't like getting responses in kind.
    I'll just leave that alone, as you will have some other "smart" remark to anything I say. The beauty is, I do not have to justify anything to you. I made my point, this thread has run its course, and is no longer gaining anything useful.

  23. #73
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    You are just an angry guy who is taking advantage of the anonymity of the forum to vent your pain. I believe that you sincerely feel passionate about these topics, but I also think that the intensity and anger in your posts is coming from somewhere else. On many occasions I've seen people venting on forums like this. Personally, I feel bad for you and I hope whatever is really driving your feelings of anger and frustration are resolved.

    Beyond that, I hope to see this thread closed asap. szn, take care of yourself.
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  24. #74
    He's No Good To Me Dead silver trophybronze trophy stymiee's Avatar
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    Ok, just read this thread. It's offtopic so there is no need to continue the current discussion.


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