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  1. #51
    SitePoint Wizard samsm's Avatar
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    I love this breed of thread.

    You can rename it: "I know deep down what I think is right, could someone please convince me otherwise?"
    Using your unpaid time to add free content to SitePoint Pty Ltd's portfolio?

  2. #52
    Twitter - @CarlBeckel busy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samsm
    I love this breed of thread.

    You can rename it: "I know deep down what I think is right, could someone please convince me otherwise?"
    <sarcasm>I love this breed of post.</sarcasm>

    You sound almost critical of the fact that ethics discussions pop up here. I've personally posted a few threads of this breed, in hopes of discussion and a broader perspective on an "iffy" scenario.

    I can also say that I've taken to heart plenty of posts in various ethics discussions here, but rarely do I find value in posts loaded with sarcasm or vague statements along the lines of "just do what's obviously right". If the OP really knew deep down they wouldn't have posted.

    I actually do love this breed of thread.

  3. #53
    SitePoint Wizard samsm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by busy
    I find value in posts loaded with sarcasm or vague statements along the lines of "just do what's obviously right". If the OP really knew deep down they wouldn't have posted.
    That's where our opinions differ. I think the OP knows exactly what is right and is looking to complete strangers for a rationalization to ignore that knowledge.

    While I'm obviously critical of the original poster, I recognize this kind of behavior because I do it all the time. So, in a way, I genuinely love this sort of post too, because it is a needed reminder for me that I need to do the right thing, even when I can find a committee to justify an alternative for me.
    Using your unpaid time to add free content to SitePoint Pty Ltd's portfolio?

  4. #54
    www.artdirector.co nomad1nz's Avatar
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    Just ask yourself if you would have still contacted these people if your friend had not.

    You could try and justify taking someones elses clients as healthy competition which is perfectly legal but in the end you are stealing and to answer your question, you would be doing something immoral.

    Homer: On the other hand, who's to say what's right these days, what
    with all our modern ideas...and products?
    www.artdirector.co
    Logo Design

  5. #55
    Twitter - @CarlBeckel busy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samsm
    That's where our opinions differ. I think the OP knows exactly what is right and is looking to complete strangers for a rationalization to ignore that knowledge.

    While I'm obviously critical of the original poster, I recognize this kind of behavior because I do it all the time. So, in a way, I genuinely love this sort of post too, because it is a needed reminder for me that I need to do the right thing, even when I can find a committee to justify an alternative for me.
    Fair enough, even if it's a bit pessamistic.

    Personally though, if I post something that I think is probably wrong, I don't want people to convince me otherwise, I just want help thinking about WHY it's wrong. I want words to compliment my gut feelings. It makes it easier to apply good decision making to similar circumstances that way. Of course, maybe I'm an anomoly and your criticism is on point. Who knows.

    Quote Originally Posted by nomad1nz
    Just ask yourself if you would have still contacted these people if your friend had not.
    I agree. If your reason for going after them is just because you found out your friend is, then you're not trying to get business for yourself, you're trying to keep business from him. It's not your place to decide if he's fit for the job, it's the client's. I've taken jobs I wasn't experienced enough for, and ended up with a few months of REALLY hard work, a very happy client, and I became a much better web designer because of the experience.

  6. #56
    SitePoint Evangelist sysice's Avatar
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    Have you ever shopped around for a product?

    I'm not a fan of cold calling, but if you know they are looking and show your product is a better value, go for it.

  7. #57
    SitePoint Enthusiast fullphaser's Avatar
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    I know that if I was that friend I would take it as a learning curve, having competitors is one part of the whole expirience, and it is better if it coming from you, a friend, also he can throw up a design, but when he sees what you are going to give them, its going to hit him like a brick wall, hey, I need to figure out what this guy is doing, I would say do it not becuase it pays the bills, but rather it is the thing to do as his friend
    Phaser Labs
    Looking For Affiliates, and members always

  8. #58
    SitePoint Wizard davidjmedlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ULTiMATE
    Well, by using that logic, the only option left is to do it all alone. Either he fails, fails with you, or you succeed.
    Not sure that logic really works, actually. Just because he may fail on his own doesn't mean that he will cause you to fail. If you mentor him, provide him with an opportunity to increase his skill level and step in to help whenever needed, then you absolutely can succeed. If you're looking for someone hands-off, then maybe this isn't the guy to hire. But if you can invest some mentoring hours, then it could work out well for everybody.

  9. #59
    Steve Benjamins tnrstudios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomad1nz
    Homer: On the other hand, who's to say what's right these days, what with all our modern ideas...and products?
    How does modern ideas and products possible change what is right? Thats absurdity. Ethics transcend paradigms...

  10. #60
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    Cool

    Hai,
    firstly, has your school mate talked to you about his attempts to get the company's website job? If not, you can go right ahead and offer your services. After all, you have had vast exp. in the web designing field, and u know that u can do a much better job. Remember, u are in the business too, and you are accountable to yourself first. Then only the others. Secondly, since you wouldn't feel guilty about hurting him, go right ahead, since your conscience tells u that u are going give a much better professional deal than your novice friend (who should have approached u by now for tips).
    All the best.
    suryachalla

  11. #61
    Web developer chrisranjana's Avatar
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    outsource work

    Quote Originally Posted by redhillccwebmas
    Hi there,

    Now the dilemma is that I feel I can deliver a much better solution to this company's problem and deliver a much more proffesional service; been designing sites for 3 years now. Would it be fair game if I contacted this company offering them my services too (possibly already created a site template or similar)?

    What do people think of this idea? Is it a good or bad idea to do? TBO I don't really mind if it ruins the relationship between me and the guy from my old college.
    What if your friend decides to outsource portions of the contract which he cannot do by himself ?

    That way if he lands a qualified web design company then he can still supply a professional website to them.
    Chris, Programmer/Developer,
    Laravel Php Developers, Ruby on Rails programmers,
    Moodle, Opencart, Magento, Geodesic Classifieds/Auctions,
    www.chrisranjana.com

  12. #62
    SitePoint Zealot
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    Most of my thoughts have already been expressed well by others, but to sum up:

    1.) If it really is going to bother you if he gets mad long-term over this, then forget it
    2.) If HE told you that he was bidding on it, then forget it

    Otherwise:

    3.) Submit your own proposal, as if you knew nothing about the fact that he bid on it. Don't mention him, be careful what you say if you try to allude to developers like him, and just show what you can offer. If they see you as a better option outright, then great. If not, then it's their choice. Plenty of businesses pick the wrong person, not a lot you can do to change that.
    4.) As far as working with him on it - it's an option, but only if you really want to. It sounds like you aren't too crazy about this guy, so don't bind yourself to him if you already have mixed feelings. As was said earlier, it's not always easy working with friends, and often even harder working with old acquaintences that you have issues with. If you really are in two worlds of understanding, and he's already bid on it, then he's probably not bid enough to include you, anyway.

  13. #63
    SitePoint Member
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    Ask yourself this question,

    If my "friend" and I "switched" our roles in this event, would I still feel the same about the direction to which I am leaning?

    Don't let his lack of ethics justify the compromization of your own or cloud
    your need to define them for yourself.

    As for the opportunity itself, drop by and leave them your card.

    State that if any projects current in the works don't materialize
    satisfactorily, then to please keep you in mind.

  14. #64
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coleton Coletti
    Ask yourself this question,

    If my "friend" and I "switched" our roles in this event, would I still feel the same about the direction to which I am leaning?

    Don't let his lack of ethics justify the compromization of your own or cloud
    your need to define them for yourself.

    As for the opportunity itself, drop by and leave them your card.

    State that if any projects current in the works don't materialize
    satisfactorily, then to please keep you in mind.
    Nice

    What a great summary!
    Andrew Wasson | www.lunadesign.org
    Principal / Internet Development

  15. #65
    SitePoint Member
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    Always do what you feel is right . Sometimes in busines you have to go for the gold . Just keep your eyes open and always look forward.
    http://tinyurl.com
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    http://tinyurl.com

  16. #66
    ********* Genius Mike's Avatar
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    So you're friends, you've worked with him in the past, you know his methods of design, and he obviously told you the details of his proposal.

    Of course it's unethical, and dishonest.

    But can you put a price on integrity?
    Mike
    It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me.

  17. #67
    SitePoint Member
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    I have to go with Unit7285 on this one.
    I think you already feel a bit strange about it... or you'd have done it already.
    So, either talk to the guy and see where he really is at with it or move on...

    They can't be the only company in your reach!

    Cheers
    Liz

  18. #68
    SitePoint Member
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    Ahh! ethics and the little voice in the back of your head !
    http://tinyurl.com
    http://tinyurl.com
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  19. #69
    lots of work ethic - no money Kaediem's Avatar
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    Follow your gut.

    imho he's not your friend, you are in the business and if you send in your proposal without even mentioning him let alone slamming his skills then it's fair and ethical.

    However, if you're going to feel uncomfortable about it, then it's not worth it.

    Lisa

  20. #70
    SitePoint Member
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    yay for backstabbers!
    I WANT A MACBOOK <-- Help a student in his quest,
    to get a macbook. And get FREE traffic!

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike
    So you're friends, you've worked with him in the past, you know his methods of design, and he obviously told you the details of his proposal.

    Of course it's unethical, and dishonest.
    Yeah. My thoughts exactly after he made a number of posts indicating he knew a whole lot of details of how his "friend" works, his temperament and the details of the offerring. SEEMS like he's trying to talk himself into it while having a serious issue of conscience.

    It also may not be just an issue of ethics (although despite others opinions thats enough). I know I would not trust any character with any monetary payments upfront that I thought had cut his own friend for a few bucks. Raises some alarms.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artimesia
    May I respectfully say, that neither of you may get this job....it may go to a designer even better than either of you.
    Cheers;
    Hmm, How much money is involved? May I respectfully request that we have the email address and website of the party involved in order to to come to a clearer picture of whether its ethical or not. I promise none of us will contact them

  23. #73
    SitePoint Member LoneStarGeek's Avatar
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    Run...

    If it were me in this situation I'd take a pass on the client. Not because I don't think it's fair of you to go after the job but because you run the risk of doing some serious damage to your reputation.

    You may be the best darn web designer west of the Mississippi, but if this "friend" of gets perturbed over this you don't know where he'll go shooting off his mouth. You might win this client, but do you really want to have to fight a battle for the next one, or the next one?

    I've heard it said that "Character is who you are when nobody's watching". The fact that you're even asking the question leads me to believe that you already know it's not "totally ethical".

    Thats my opinion.

  24. #74
    SitePoint Zealot
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    A big no-no from me, since you've more experience, you should be able to get another project, why fight with your friend when you have the ability to work better on other project? You might have him converted to your enemy at the end.

    Plus, getting a project and have it done is not just about programming/designing skill. Have you ever take marketing/skill at getting clients/communication into consideration?

    you might not get the job if you piss your client off even if you have better programming skill than any of the computer scientists out there.

  25. #75
    dooby dooby doo silver trophybronze trophy
    spikeZ's Avatar
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    anything happened with this yet?
    Did you bid for the job?
    are you still 'friends'?

    Whats happening?!!!
    Mike Swiffin - Community Team Advisor
    Only a woman can read between the lines of a one word answer.....


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