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  1. #1
    SitePoint Zealot prof_site's Avatar
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    Freelancers in Trouble???

    I am a freelancer and i think many more are here too.
    I am pointing out on this point that why now a days clients are too miser?
    I have seen so many who want logo in 10 or 15$. Header in only 10$.
    Whole web in 50$.Do they know what is the minimum rate/hr for unskilled labour and what is for skilled.
    I am completely in Dilemma what should be done by designers?
    We have too many expendatures too.
    Let us put our views on this

  2. #2
    SitePoint Enthusiast mavahntooth's Avatar
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    job or work is a competition. you dont have a choice if some other freelancers do designing with a very low cost.

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    Pedantic Semantic blain's Avatar
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    Unfortunately ours is an industry where a 15 year old in his bedroom can produce work as good, and in some case better than a graphic designer in a design house, that 15 year old can afford to charge $50 for a site, because he has no bills to pay.
    Technology is dominated by two types of people:
    those who understand what they do not manage,
    and those who manage what they do not understand.

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    SitePoint Zealot prof_site's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mavahntooth
    job or work is a competition. you dont have a choice if some other freelancers do designing with a very low cost.
    Ya we cant do anything but dont you think so whole community is feeling the pressure because of some designers.
    Quality always need time and designers who is providing in very low cost is just using cliparts in designing but client cant make the difference in that case.
    Is this our mistake????

  5. #5
    Caveat surfer Buddy Bradley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blain
    Unfortunately ours is an industry where a 15 year old in his bedroom can produce work as good, and in some case better than a graphic designer in a design house, that 15 year old can afford to charge $50 for a site, because he has no bills to pay.
    What that 15-year-old can't provide is the consultation and fact-finding process with the client to establish exactly what their users need from their website. Being a good designer isn't just about making pretty pictures in Photoshop - that is what we need to be educating clients about.

  6. #6
    SitePoint Zealot prof_site's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy Bradley
    What that 15-year-old can't provide is the consultation and fact-finding process with the client to establish exactly what their users need from their website. Being a good designer isn't just about making pretty pictures in Photoshop - that is what we need to be educating clients about.

    Right

  7. #7
    Pedantic Semantic blain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy Bradley
    What that 15-year-old can't provide is the consultation and fact-finding process with the client to establish exactly what their users need from their website. Being a good designer isn't just about making pretty pictures in Photoshop - that is what we need to be educating clients about.
    Unfortunately a lot of clients just decide that they NEED a website and never really consider why they need one, then they pick the cheapest quote.
    Technology is dominated by two types of people:
    those who understand what they do not manage,
    and those who manage what they do not understand.

  8. #8
    SitePoint Zealot prof_site's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blain
    Unfortunately a lot of clients just decide that they NEED a website and never really consider why they need one, then they pick the cheapest quote.

    So many clients are here too who want a nice and professional site with complete solutions in very cheaper rates.Some bargains too for cheaper rates.
    I have seen so many freelance sites where client wanna get his work done without spending a single penny.
    Whats wrong with that guys????????

  9. #9
    Caveat surfer Buddy Bradley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blain
    Unfortunately a lot of clients just decide that they NEED a website and never really consider why they need one, then they pick the cheapest quote.
    Screw 'em - they obviously don't deserve to have us work on their sites.

  10. #10
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blain
    Unfortunately a lot of clients just decide that they NEED a website and never really consider why they need one, then they pick the cheapest quote.
    Then do you really want them as a client? It's better to have customers that value all of the services you provide, not just the cheapest subset.

  11. #11
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    I think, at least sometimes, the kind of client you get depends on where you work. Unfortunately, I think that freelancers are looked down upon because clients look at them as "too lazy" to go out and get a "real" job, so they assume they don't have all of the skills of someone working in a design studio, so they deserve to be paid less. So, if you work in a design house, you WILL get the more "serious" clients...they view studios as more professional and are willing to pay more, and want to get the "full service" and bang for their buck. It's unfortunate for those of us that have all the skills and just choose to work from home...15-year-olds rarely have the skills--especially nowadays, when everyone thinks that if you have just FrontPage or Dreamweaver, you automatically can make a good website--and unfortunate that clients will settle for this.
    Terri Eades - Web/Graphic Designer - www.terrieades.com

  12. #12
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perfectionist121
    I think, at least sometimes, the kind of client you get depends on where you work. Unfortunately, I think that freelancers are looked down upon because clients look at them as "too lazy" to go out and get a "real" job, so they assume they don't have all of the skills of someone working in a design studio, so they deserve to be paid less. So, if you work in a design house, you WILL get the more "serious" clients...they view studios as more professional and are willing to pay more, and want to get the "full service" and bang for their buck. It's unfortunate for those of us that have all the skills and just choose to work from home...15-year-olds rarely have the skills--especially nowadays, when everyone thinks that if you have just FrontPage or Dreamweaver, you automatically can make a good website--and unfortunate that clients will settle for this.
    And a client would know you work from home how? It's pretty easy to cover that up (PO box, business phone line, visit the client's office or take them out to lunch and dress nicely) if you really wanted to. I'm up-front in my freelancing because I have a full time day job too and I need to set proper expectations (i.e. don't expect 50 hours worth of code in a week).

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia
    And a client would know you work from home how? It's pretty easy to cover that up (PO box, business phone line, visit the client's office or take them out to lunch and dress nicely) if you really wanted to. I'm up-front in my freelancing because I have a full time day job too and I need to set proper expectations (i.e. don't expect 50 hours worth of code in a week).
    And that's what I was getting at...I'm up-front about it because for nine months out of the year, I have a pretty full schedule in college, so a balancing act comes into place. I've also worked for clients in other parts of the country, or in other countries altogether, so limitations become more apparent. (ie They want to fax me, but I don't have a fax machine...odd if someone worked in an office.)
    Terri Eades - Web/Graphic Designer - www.terrieades.com

  14. #14
    Non-Member Egor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perfectionist121
    I think, at least sometimes, the kind of client you get depends on where you work. Unfortunately, I think that freelancers are looked down upon because clients look at them as "too lazy" to go out and get a "real" job, so they assume they don't have all of the skills of someone working in a design studio, so they deserve to be paid less. So, if you work in a design house, you WILL get the more "serious" clients...they view studios as more professional and are willing to pay more, and want to get the "full service" and bang for their buck. It's unfortunate for those of us that have all the skills and just choose to work from home...15-year-olds rarely have the skills--especially nowadays, when everyone thinks that if you have just FrontPage or Dreamweaver, you automatically can make a good website--and unfortunate that clients will settle for this.
    While that's certaunly true in some cases (due to client ignorance), I think this is more of an excuse to avoid freelancing than a complaint from serious freelancers actually doing their thing.

    I still work from my bedroom, and the clients know this. I'm still quite young. I don't offer full-scale services either. Yet, I'm pressy damn busy most of the time.

    Again, I think the whole discrimination thing is, for the most part, an excuse for the lack of marketing and communication skills. It's most certainly possible to do what you want, and get payed well for it, if you know how to do it right (and that goes way beyond your technical skill-set). this all takes a bit of time, of course, but being a freelancer does not mean you have to play in the 15-year-old sand-pit.

    It's not the where, but the how which matters, in my opinion.

  15. #15
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    Very true, as well, Egor. If you presented yourself as a professional--marketing, conducting business, etc--as if you were in a design house, then you wouldn't be paid any differently...you'd deserve it, and the "ignorant" ones out there wouldn't even be able to tell you were working from your bedroom. I'm coming from the standpoint of someone who HAS had the ignorant clients--ones that expect to get a 50-100 page site for $200, including a full graphical layout, dynamic elements, SEO, the works. Luckily, though, after spending a year back at school and getting more practical and business experience, even through working at home, I'm able to pull in at least the standard hourly rate of an entry-level designer.

    So, alas, Egor has a different--but valid--point, as well, prof_site.
    Terri Eades - Web/Graphic Designer - www.terrieades.com

  16. #16
    SitePoint Zealot prof_site's Avatar
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    Me too always work from my bedroom.But what i think that it should not be a issue for client.Our work is provide quality work with 100% satisfaction.It dosent metter from where we work but what i am looking that now a days clients dont want quality,they are running for cheaper rates.
    On one freelance site so many freelancers put bids.Some has lot of reviews,Some has low and some is new in freelancing but that dosent mean that if someone is new than he dont have skills.Clients bargins and want all work done without cost form new freelancers or in very low cost.
    They are offering less than 50$ for whole project mean less than hourly rate for a professional

  17. #17
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    It's all about providing value. Web design has become a commodity, not an art. So how do you transcend what the other designers are giving? People will pay a premium for customer service, and assurance that things will go the way they want. I had a project that was a disaster for me because I held the client's hand through everything.

    A few other points:
    I used to ask for low rates for websitse and was swamped with work. I started turning those jobs doing and using the time for find more lucrative work. Now I can't find the time to do all the higher priced jobs I have.
    Selling your services takes just as much time if you sell your site for $1 or $1 million. So maybe you should focus on making less sales, but for more money. Don't make it about doing many sites. Make it about doing the best sites. And with a good budget you can subcontract to programmers and designers who can really make a site outstanding.
    Never let clients know about things like your expenses. As far as your client is concerned, you live in a $1 million apartment in Manhattan, you have a vacation home in the Hamptons, you drive a Porsche and a BMW and you just don't have time to waste on them if they don't pay you what you're worth.

    Many times I've had people say "I can get that done at 10% of the cost" only to come back when the guy burned them by not finishing or doing a terrible job. You get what you pay for. Yes, you get some outstanding sites from 15 year old kids. But does a 15 year old understand business processes? Can he write copy? Maybe - I got into advertising when I was 17. But not likely. Hey, if someone's website is unimportant enough to them to use a kid, then let them use a kid. You have bigger priorities now - go redesign a big company's site. Ask for $5000. Then you can sit back and relax while the 15 year old works on 100 sites to catch up to that figure.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by prof_site
    Me too always work from my bedroom.But what i think that it should not be a issue for client.Our work is provide quality work with 100% satisfaction.It dosent metter from where we work but what i am looking that now a days clients dont want quality,they are running for cheaper rates.
    I still don't see the problem.

    It takes a lot of skill to design a good website - understanding the client-side technologies (CSS, Javascript, cross-browser issues, making the site work on cell-phones or other non-PC display devices, etc, etc); understanding the user's needs, doing the server-side work - the database, the code-behind or other server-side programming, all the e-commerce and online transaction processing, security, etc.

    If the low-cost guys can do all that then the rest of you really ARE overpaid! And if the low-cost guys can't do that, then next time the client will choose a real professional and pay what it takes. So either way there's really no problem and things will straighten out themselves.


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