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  1. #1
    SitePoint Zealot Kamran's Avatar
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    Bombing of Afghanistan

    Hi,

    I just wondered what people thought about it.

    If the bombs actually hit the targets they were supposed to, I wouldn’t mind as much, but with quite a few accidents already, I think America should stop.

    The bombs have killed innocent people, including children, yet America continue, I wonder how many will die, before they stop?

    I’ve seen quite a few disturbing photos from Afghanistan in the UK press, one of a baby (around 2 yrs old) covered in blood, and another of a dead baby (under 1). There was a quote from the mother of the dead baby (she lost her husband and all of her 7 children, when a bomb hit their house by mistake), she said something along the lines of “How could they be able to do this, and nobody is doing anything to help”

    That article really got to me, what right does America has killing innocent people? – I know they don’t mean to, but they are.

    I’m not saying let Bin Laden off by any means, but does America have to kill so many people to get to him, and theres no guarantee that they will.

    I think America have just made the situation worse, if they do catch Bin Laden, do they think that will stop other loonies causing terrorist acts? I think the bombing has most likely caused a new generation of “Bin Ladens”

    The American government should look at the root of the problem – their foreign policy. Until that situation is addressed, there will always be people wanting revenge, who will turn to violence, to get it.

    Someone has given a link to this article before, but I thought I’d post it again:

    They (America) can't see why they are hated

    Also I heard this old couple talking on a bus (on the way home from uni) and the lady was comparing America to the terrorists, saying to her husband “they both killing innocent people – whats the difference?” I’m inclined to think the same thing.

  2. #2
    SitePoint Wizard Ian Glass's Avatar
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    Wow, I didn't think that Taliban propaganda would be this effective, so soon...because that's what it is: Taliban propaganda. We get the same thing here in the U.S., too: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/p...off/index.html. Ever notice the Taliban enforcer over the shoulder of the cameramen, showing them where to point...and where not to.
    _____________________

    To say that the U.S. is responsible for the actions of others is, at the very least, short-sited. To say that American foreign policy, witch doesn't differ entirely from yours in the U.K., caused this is to not know what American foreign policy is. And, to compare the American action to those of terrorists is to be ignorant of both.

    America is a target because we’re here, we’re rich, and we’re powerful. We make a prominent target for those who want to shift blame away from their own hands, or those who have their own ambitions to fan. That’s it. American foreign policy is not responsible for despots and totalitarian dictatorships; for the most part they were there before America even got involved. Does America protect our ‘interests’ more than others? Yes—so do you, so do they. It’s not absurd to think that we would, either; it’s common since.

    This is is what terrorists have done: http://www.earthcam.com/usa/newyork/...ero/index.html. And, yes it’s still smoking… The American (and British) action in Afghanistan is, probably, the most targeted and restrained military assault in history. Period.

    About five thousand innocent people, doing nothing but supporting their families, were murdered by terrorists; the American action, on the other hand, has not lead to anywhere near that number of causalities.
    ∙ Have there been mistakes? Yes that’s inevitable—we’re bombing them.
    ∙ Should the American military strike terror into the harts of our enemies? Why else would we have a military? That’s what a good military’s supposed to do. It acts not only as a defense and retaliatory agency, but also as a deterrent to our enemies.

    ~~That's My 2(American)¢

  3. #3
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    A little Photoshop and a whole lot of guts and you can accomplish anything with a photograph. Did anyone see "The Agency" last night? What was seen on TV last night in that show is a very realistic thing. Doctoring photos, issuing press releases, it's all propaganda. Sure we've killed innocents. The Taliban knows how to end it. Just say uncle and hand over the mass murderer.

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  4. #4
    SitePoint Zealot Kamran's Avatar
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    I don’t care if its propaganda or not – innocent people are dying, what right does anyone have to take another life?

    Originally posted by Ian Glass
    To say that the U.S. is responsible for the actions of others is, at the very least, short-sited. To say that American foreign policy, witch doesn't differ entirely from yours in the U.K., caused this is to not know what American foreign policy is. And, to compare the American action to those of terrorists is to be ignorant of both.
    I'm not defending the terrorists (like I said before) - they deserve their punishment - by point is, the Afghan people dont deserve to be put into the middle of it.

    Also the UK doesnt go around bombing countries when they feel like (see below).

    Originally posted by Ian Glass

    America is a target because we’re here, we’re rich, and we’re powerful. We make a prominent target for those who want to shift blame away from their own hands, or those who have their own ambitions to fan. That’s it. American foreign policy is not responsible for despots and totalitarian dictatorships; for the most part they were there before America even got involved. Does America protect our ‘interests’ more than others? Yes—so do you, so do they. It’s not absurd to think that we would, either; it’s common since..
    And whats American done with that power? Abuse it

    "Unconstrained by any superpower rival or system of global governance, the US giant has rewritten the global financial and trading system in its own interest; ripped up a string of treaties it finds inconvenient; sent troops to every corner of the globe; bombed Afghanistan, Sudan, Yugoslavia and Iraq without troubling the United Nations; maintained a string of murderous embargos against recalcitrant regimes; and recklessly thrown its weight behind Israel's 34-year illegal military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza as the Palestinian intifada rages. "

    Originally posted by Ian Glass
    This is is what terrorists have done: http://www.earthcam.com/usa/newyork/...ero/index.html. And, yes it’s still smoking… The American (and British) action in Afghanistan is, probably, the most targeted and restrained military assault in history. Period..

    About five thousand innocent people, doing nothing but supporting their families, were murdered by terrorists; the American action, on the other hand, has not lead to anywhere near that number of causalities.
    ∙ Have there been mistakes? Yes that’s inevitable—we’re bombing them.
    ∙ Should the American military strike terror into the harts of our enemies? Why else would we have a military? That’s what a good military’s supposed to do. It acts not only as a defense and retaliatory agency, but also as a deterrent to our enemies.

    ~~That's My 2(American)¢
    Yeah I've seen the pics of the WTC, and I've seen the pics of Afghanistan. I was shocked, like everyone else with what happened on Sept 11, but with the allied forces bombing Afghanistan - how will that make things better?

    So if the allied forces kill about five thousand innocent Afghans - will that make things better?

    How the people of America are feeling - is JUST like what the people of Afghanistan must be feeling.

    "deterrent to our enemies" - Its just making more enemies.

  5. #5
    SitePoint Zealot Kamran's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Sketch
    A little Photoshop and a whole lot of guts and you can accomplish anything with a photograph. Did anyone see "The Agency" last night? What was seen on TV last night in that show is a very realistic thing. Doctoring photos, issuing press releases, it's all propaganda. Sure we've killed innocents. The Taliban knows how to end it. Just say uncle and hand over the mass murderer.

    Sketch
    The photos were taken by British journalists.

    The Taliban took over the country, the Afghan people dont have much choice.

    The Taliban also said they would hand him over to a neutral country for a trial, but the US government refused. Has the US government shown proof of him being associated with Sept 11? (I'm just asking, I dont know myself, just havent seen any) Although its not like he would get a fair trial anywhere he went.

    I know I'm sounding really anti - US, I know they do alot of good too, its just I'm annoyed about the bombing.

  6. #6
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    How do I know that the images were taken by British photographers? They were released by the taliban to Al-Jazeera! I've seen the photos. It's propaganda. I watch movies all the time that have fake blood and injuries that LOOK real but aren't. How do I know that that isn't what we are seeing? Even if British photographers took those pictures, Photoshop techniques still apply and I have heard alot of anti-bombing sentiment coming from the UK. Who's to say British graphic artists didn't release a doctored up photo? Of course, it goes the other way too. I'm just pointing out the fact that I rarely take things at face value, especially in situations like this. I don't trust journalists, and I don't trust the Taliban.

    As for the Taliban being in power, I can give you a half dozen times in history (both recent and ancient) where the people of a nation rose in a coup d'etat and overthrew the existing government. It happens and can still happen even in a war-torn nation. Even without that, the Taliban is getting hammered too, and all they have to do is cry uncle and do what is right.

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  7. #7
    SitePoint Wizard creole's Avatar
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    I will point out that America would not have gotten involved in many of those conflicts that you mentioned without being asked to be there.
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  8. #8
    SitePoint Wizard Ian Glass's Avatar
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    This is long, so I’m sorry…

    "Unconstrained by any superpower rival or system of global governance, the US giant has rewritten the global financial and trading system in its own interest; ripped up a string of treaties it finds inconvenient; sent troops to every corner of the globe; bombed Afghanistan, Sudan, Yugoslavia and Iraq without troubling the United Nations; maintained a string of murderous embargos against recalcitrant regimes; and recklessly thrown its weight behind Israel's 34-year illegal military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza as the Palestinian intifada rages."
    I read the piece, but it's bull s--t—plain and simple! So let’s dismantle it, shall we?

    ∙ “…the US giant has rewritten the global financial and trading system in its own interest…” – we have, have we? So I guess that the U.K., Japan, China, Germany, Australia, Mexico, Canada, among many, many others have been powerless to stop the U.S. giant from steam-rolling their economies to pave our golden roads and platinum-clad subdivisions, witch house our grossly obese bodies fed by food stolen from starving, pathetic infants… Give me a break! The U.S. economy has been the strongest economy ever since the end of WWII—we still benefit from that. And, I think, in actuality, global competition has increased since the collapse of the U.S.S.R., but I could be wrong.

    ∙ “…ripped up a string of treaties it finds inconvenient…” – I suppose that’s a reference to the missile-defense initiative of president Bush. In actuality, a lot of Americans have a problem with that, too (as do I—I think it’s a waste of money). Still, it’s an antiquated treaty that needs to be absolved anyway, or do you enjoy nuclear fallout? As for the Kyoto treaty, we never ratified that.

    ∙ “…sent troops to every corner of the globe; bombed Afghanistan, Sudan, Yugoslavia and Iraq without troubling the United Nations…” – yep we have. So have you, with the exception of Sudan. Do we have no right to protect ourselves and our interests (Afghanistan, Sudan, and Iraq)? Can we not defend those that otherwise would fall victim to extermination (Yugoslavia and Iraq)? And, as for our poor manners with the U.N., tough nugies.

    ∙ “…maintained a string of murderous embargos against recalcitrant regimes…” – I guess that’s talking mainly about Iraq. So here goes: all of them are under the same restrictions, but only the part controlled by Sadam Hessian is hurting. Also, under the oil for food program, Iraq can get plenty of food, but that food has been found throughout other countries in the reign. No surprise there. And as for our “string of murderous embargos”, I guess that the people of India, and Pakistan are really hurting, and what about… No embargo that we have ever put in place is structured to kill. I do think that our embargo of Cuba should be let up, though—but hell, it’s tradition, now.

    ∙ “…and recklessly thrown its weight behind Israel's 34-year illegal military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza as the Palestinian intifada rages…” – so has the U.K. Now, I wondering, how is Israel supposed to protect it’s self from fifteen year-olds strapping explosives to their chest, running into a cowed mall, and shouting, “boom;” especially if those kids are now in “paradise” with seventy-four virgins, and backed by people in that regain?

    That’s American abuse for you…

    So if the allied forces kill about five thousand innocent Afghans - will that make things better?
    I’d prefer five thousand Sudanese, Egyptian, and Saudi, but I’ll settle for Afghani. What kind of question is that (obviously, rhetorical, but that’s not what I’m getting at)?

    To answer your question: no, of course not. I don’t want any innocent people to be killed, I don’t even want the terrorists killed by military action—I want the bad guys in custody, tried and convicted in American courts. That’s how I’d prefer this to go down, but if you’ll remember back, oh about a month or so, we gave the Taliban ample time to give those basterds over—they didn’t. We asked the Taliban if one man was worth 25 million Afghani. As far as I’m concerned, they have given us their answer. If the Taliban doesn’t care about their own people, why should we? That’s not our job, or responsibility.

    (Speaking Preemptively) And as far as the argument that the military action is inflecting hardships on the Afghani people, surprisingly, it isn’t really. They were starving before our action because the Taliban was more interested in growing poppies than wheat. Most Afghan citizens will never see a U.S. bomb up-close—we’re not carpet bombing. I already said before, but I’ll say it again—this is a very targeted and restrained military action. Plus, we’ve been attempting, to the best of our ability, to continue aid to Afghanistan (witch, of course, we were the largest contributor before this action).

    …deterrent to our enemies" - Its just making more enemies…
    Nope, just forcing the enemies we already had out into the open.

    ~~That's My 2(American)¢

  9. #9
    Digital Warrior Renegade's Avatar
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    People like you annoy me. what about the 5000 people in the WTC? huh? what about them? maybe we should just sit back and say "oh well, sorry about the loss of life, not much we can do. shame on your terrorist...bad terrorist...bad!"

    American has stood by and watched civilians die over the years. And I for one am sick of it. American citizens at the hands of terrorists. They bomb our embassy, we do nothing. They blow a hole in our navy ship, we bend over and take it. They kill 15 of our Rangers, and drag their bodies through the streets while the onlookers spit on them and desecrate their remains, America says "oh well"

    Enough is enough. its time for america to stand up and say "we ain't taking this BS anymore"

    Deal with it. civilian deaths are an unfortuante part of war. accept it and move on, cause we ain't gonna let up. In fact, it will only get worse. wait and see
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    Originally posted by Kamran
    I'm not defending the terrorists (like I said before) - they deserve their punishment - by point is, the Afghan people dont deserve to be put into the middle of it.
    Either did the thousands/millions of people affected by the WTC crash.
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    SitePoint Wizard iTec's Avatar
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    Heres my view, its got a little bit of my faith, a little of what i grew up beleiving, and a little of my own oppinion, and a little bit of fact to it...

    The afghanistan people are innocent, they harmed nobody.. they had no involvment in S11 and all they are after is a little help, If 1 afghan is killed, that is 1 afghan to many, wether it be a child, a mother, a father or a son, they all have family and they have done nothing wrong, apart from grow up in a country surrounded by doministic neighbours and mentaly unstable people, they have gone about living there life, and nobody has a right to take that from them.

    "accidents" such as stray bombs and human error happen, but the US military should be beyond that, they are a world super power, if they cant gaurentee that every bomb they launch will hit its target when fired from 100 miles away, then they should fire it from 50 miles where they can gaurennt it, if they cant gaurentee it then move closer, if they have to walk in to the building with guns, then do that.

    Im all for america bombing the crap out of al quada, i couldnt care what happens to bin laden, his a head figure, take his men away and hes got no army, no weapons and no chance of survival.

    Im not a religiouse person, but im sure that the god we ask to "bless america" would not want america to bless the world with its firepower, an eye for an eye, and if a person slaps your face, turn the other cheek, are 2 sayings that have stuck to my mind through this. why dont we follow our faith more often, think what might of happened if america had not retaliated, would they have bothered trying to attack again? they are after a war, they are after free publicity for there cause, and america has given them more publicity then anything, this inturn means more support then anything. the attacks should have been carried out in absolute silence, they would never of knowen what hit them!

    if this is a so called "war on terrorism" that the world must fight, then why the hell does ireland still have an IRA? not quite the "war on terrorism" when its only a war against one man.

    Propaganda will win this war, the taliban will survive, and the american people will eventually start to beleive that the pictures that come from afghanistan are true, there not! look at the evidence, and its sources before making a final judgment.

  12. #12
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    I have seen pictures and videos from Afghanistan. They are real. The pictures and REPORTS that I have seen have been taken and produced by reputable INTERNATIONAL jouranlists. Sure, they have been shown the worst of what is occuring, that suits the needs of the Taliban. It also happens to be grotesque, wrong and pure evil.

    I am not US bashing here, the UK forces, as I have said before, are just as responsible. That doesn't mean I am, and it doesn't mean the every American person is. I personally am truly ashamed at the action taking place and do not support it.

    To glorify, support, or encourage what is occuring is just as evil as glorifying, supporting or encouraging what happened on September the 11th. There is no difference.

    Those of you that describe the images as faked remind me very much of those who denied what Nazi Germany was doing in ww2. You are clutching at straws to avoid the reality. Which is this. There are no good guys in this whole affair - merely nasty rulers (or nice government who overthrew previous nasty regime), frustrated and evil terrorists (or freedom fighters), and deluded desperate governments with a gross attitude to the validity of life over power (or us).

    Oh, then there are the innocents.

    I am truly sickened by what I have read here. I'm not actually going to enter into debate or argument (which I usually enjoy) because some of the views expressed are simply too vile and ignorant to even warrant balanced argument.
    Last edited by TheOriginalH; Nov 3, 2001 at 07:15.
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    SitePoint Wizard westmich's Avatar
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    If the bombs actually hit the targets they were supposed to, I wouldn’t mind as much, but with quite a few accidents already, I think America should stop.
    I'm sure the RAF was very careful in it's bombing of Berlin in response to London being bombed.
    by point is, the Afghan people don’t deserve to be put into the middle of it.
    Yes, and I am sure it was only a handful of Nazis that were responsible for WWII and the Holocaust. And I'm sure the few dozen people in the Taliban were completely responsible for murdering thousands in their own country, closing down the Women's schools and organizations - changing the very fabric of life for women in Afghanistan. The fact that it takes the willingness of a people and country in large measure to carry such things out.

    Millions the world over want to see us dead because of thier religious beliefs.
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    Next stop: PHP! Marina's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Renegade

    Deal with it. civilian deaths are an unfortuante part of war. accept it and move on, cause we ain't gonna let up. In fact, it will only get worse. wait and see
    That's EXACTLY what the terrorists say! Hate and ignorance channelled into patriotism is hate and ignorance just the same.

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    SitePoint Zealot Kamran's Avatar
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    Originally posted by westmich

    I'm sure the RAF was very careful in it's bombing of Berlin in response to London being bombed.

    Yes, and I am sure it was only a handful of Nazis that were responsible for WWII and the Holocaust. And I'm sure the few dozen people in the Taliban were completely responsible for murdering thousands in their own country, closing down the Women's schools and organizations - changing the very fabric of life for women in Afghanistan. The fact that it takes the willingness of a people and country in large measure to carry such things out.

    Millions the world over want to see us dead because of thier religious beliefs.
    It was a group of terrorists that caused this - not a country/religion. Are you telling me that if some American caused something like this - we should blame the American people?

    Its got nothing to do with religious beliefs, you think muslims "hate" Americans because of their religion?

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    SitePoint Wizard westmich's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Kamran
    It was a group of terrorists that caused this - not a country/religion. Are you telling me that if some American caused something like this - we should blame the American people?
    The Taliban is the government of Afghanistan. They completely support/endorse/finance terrorists. They would have never risen to power and held it without popular support.

    Originally posted by Kamran
    Its got nothing to do with religious beliefs, you think muslims "hate" Americans because of their religion?
    No, I think the terrorists actions are based on the the terrorists beliefs, which is part of a very faction of Islam - not Muslims or Islam in general.
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    SitePoint Zealot Kamran's Avatar
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    Originally posted by westmich

    The Taliban is the government of Afghanistan. They completely support/endorse/finance terrorists. They would have never risen to power and held it without popular support.
    The Taliban took over (by force) from the Mujahideen. There was intense infighting, the Afghan people didnt just sit there and let it happen, thousands died.

    The people of Afghanistan have suffered enough - first the British try and take over, then Russia, then the civil war (which is still going on) and now the allied forces bombing them.

    The majority are living in rubble and starving, aid agencies cant do much, with the bombing going on, so thousands more will die in the freezing winter (thorough lack of food/medicine).

  18. #18
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    Innocents?

    I was watching the news maybe 2 weeks ago. It should a Islamic Leader preaching how all good muslims should carry on a Jihad against the US and kill US Citizens.

    This preacher was 8 years old. His father was pround of him, his mother was locked in the backroom and wasn't allowed out when the reporter was there.

    Religious Fanaticism is stupid, wrong, and pretty much the cause of most of the problems in the world. Be it Islamic, Christian, Hindu, or what have you. Pretty much the only religion that hasn't shed blood is Buddhism. When China invaded Tibet they didn't fight for it, the Buddhists left and went to Nepal.

    The same reports telling of babies killed in Afganistan are also telling of how most of the civilians are taking up arms to fight off the great white infidel.

    The US gives more aid to Afganistan every year than any other country, this tragedy will only increase the amount of aid we give them. Food that keeps them alive, Food with our name on it, and still they hate us. You should see all the commercials on TV over here, there is nearly as much fund raising for the children of Afganistan as for the the victims of 9/11.

    I fully support everything we and our allies are doing. If someone in Afganistan dies I could care less. Its necessary to get the job done. War isn't pretty, but its necessary. I will not waver in my support for my troops. These people are over there fighting so that I don't have to live in fear. I support everything they have to do, because I believe in my country.

    In World War II Germany was bombed and civilians were killed. Civilians who supported the Nazi party, Civilians who said nothing when truckloads of people were carried away to die. Sometimes its inaction, that action, that removes our innocence.

    For every action there is a consequence. Humans have free will, no matter where they live every person has free will. Anyone still in Taliban contolled Afganistan could have left, they knew this was coming and like many they could have left. If they didn't believe in the Taliban they could have long ago choosen to not to support it. Non of the adults there were born into Taliban rule, it was a change that came around in their lifetime, a change they could have opposed. By accepting the Taliban they accept responsibility for their actions, much in the way that by voting for Bush you accept the responsibility of his actions.

    You know sometimes there are no easy decisions in life, sometimes things are black and white. Sometimes you need to choose between two bad options. This isn't an ideal situation but its one we have to deal with.
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    SitePoint Wizard Ian Glass's Avatar
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    O.K. I can see here that you foreigners just don't get it. Do you? NOTE: This is long, I’m sorry, again.
    The people of Afghanistan have suffered enough - first the British try and take over, then Russia, then the civil war (which is still going on) and now the allied forces bombing them
    Kamran, are you really comparing this action to the rampages of East India Company? Do you really think that this action is on the same scale as that of the U.S.S.R.'s invasion? This is the most responsible and targeted military action in history. If this were really an action against the people of Afghanistan, there would be no people of Afghanistan. It's as simple as that.

    None of us here in America, with the exception possibly of Jigga, want to have civilian causalities. We don't want the people to suffer because we are targeting their leaders. But it's not as easy as going in at taking out a few villains. The people of Afghanistan support the terrorists and they support the Taliban. The Taliban are now hiding in residential areas and Mosques. My feeling is that once a building of worship becomes a munitions depot, it’s no longer a building of worship—it’s a munitions depot. The same goes for those that hide solders in their houses—that house is now a military barracks. If anyone takes arms against us or otherwise impedes our actions, they’re putting themselves in the crosshairs. I make no apologies for terrorizing terrorists.

    Still, we’re doing this as responsibly as war can possibly be waged. We drop food and medicine to the people of Afghanistan. We use the most advanced and targeted explosive-weapons in human history. We continue to raise money to help the starving people in Afghanistan. I really don’t think that this is a courtesy any other country in the world would extend after watching five thousand of their countrymen murdered on live television.

    “…civilian deaths are an unfortuante part of war. accept it and move on, cause we ain't gonna let up. In fact, it will only get worse. wait and see…” — That's EXACTLY what the terrorists say!
    Marina, actually the terrorists “make no distinction between military civilian targets.” That’s in their own words. To compare the U.S. military to Al Qaeda, is simply wrong. We do make a distinction between military and civilian causalities. We regret civilian causalities and do everything in our power to avoid them, but we’re not going to cower down because someone got hurt.

    I am truly sickened by what I have read here. I'm not actually going to enter into debate or argument (which I usually enjoy) because some of the views expressed are simply too vile and ignorant to even warrant balanced argument.
    H, don't go—this is important. Even though I think that you’ll find the majority of Americans vary only in degree with their opinions, it’s important to note that there is large minority that agrees with you.

    What you must understand is the attack on 9/11 was very personal to us. This isn’t like the IRA; this isn’t like the PLO. Those groups never committed such a perverse and despicable act. And, even though they continue to support terrorism, it’s much more targeted (assassination) towards those that feel are their enemies, usually. This attack was the single largest act of mass murder in recorded history…and it was meant for us. It wasn’t an isolated incident, either. This group of terrorists has attacked us before—several times.

    After the bombing of the U.S.S. Cole, we told Taliban that we’d hold them responsible for any more actions by that group of murders. We’re simply keeping our word—you can’t really fault us for that. The Taliban will fall at the hands of the U.S. because of their refusal to think that we’d actually keep our word. I really don’t think that mistake will be made by anyone else in the near future. This is a necessity to protect ourselves. Oh, and you’ll benefit, too (that is unless you’d like to have five thousand of your countrymen murdered on live television, too—hey, it could even be you…).

    Civilian causalities are a horrible part of war. If you can’t stomach civilian causalities, don’t wage war. We know from previous dealings with this group that not doing anything is an invitation for more attacks. After the embassy bombings, we bombed them; it took them two years to recover enough to attempt another attack. They tried to sink a destroyer, we did nothing; less than a year later, they committed the worst act of terror in history. We’re not going to make that mistake again.

    ~~That’s My 2¢

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    Originally posted by Marina

    That's EXACTLY what the terrorists say! Hate and ignorance channelled into patriotism is hate and ignorance just the same.
    How dare you compare me to the terrorists. You've gone too far.

    The terrorists INTENTIONALLY TARGET CIVILIANS. The US does not. We accidentially miss.

    To the person who said we shouldn't miss. Your right, we shouldn't. But an imperfect being cannot create a perfect weapon. We are going to miss...tragically as that is, its the truth

    Maybe we should have not fought WWII, "Because 6 million jews have already died, we can't afford to loose one more" Yeah, we prolly should have just pulled out in fear that innocent civils might die. Isn't that right? I have seen this question posed a lot, but I have never seen anyone actually answer it. So, what are your thoughts on that Marina?

    Must be nice to be overseas and far withdrawn from this whole situation. I envy you. Maybe you will change your mind when/if the al-quida attack someone/something in your homeland. They have cells in 60 countries ya know, one of them might be yours.

    And yes I am a patriot. I love my country and will fight for her anyday anytime anywhere. I will fight for my freedom that I enjoy. and I will fight so that my future children do not have to live in fear as many Americans are today.

    GOD BLESS AMERICA
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    Originally posted by Ian Glass
    Marina, actually the terrorists “make no distinction between military civilian targets.” That’s in their own words.
    Yep. Bin Laden's words actually. I think the quote was something like: "to kill Americans, both civil and military, is the duty of every able bodied Muslim"

    That was a quote from several years ago, when he declared war on America. Well, ONE of the times he declared war on America.

    1998 I believe.
    --There's my 1.5 cents, now where is my change!?!?

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    Hi,

    Your telling me its all Taliban propaganda, about what I’ve seen, then you come back with propaganda shown by Americans TV stations.

    Aspen:

    If muslims around the world wanted to carry out a Jihad – you would know about it! Its just a few in Afghanistan, which doesn’t mean much.

    Why is it “Them” and “Us”?

    Originally posted by aspen
    The same reports telling of babies killed in Afghanistan are also telling of how most of the civilians are taking up arms to fight off the great white infidel.
    Colour doesn’t come into it – don’t know where you heard that (more propaganda?). If they are been attacked, they’ll try and defend themselves, as anyone would.

    Originally posted by aspen
    I fully support everything we and our allies are doing. If someone in Afganistan dies I could care less. Its necessary to get the job done.
    Osama tries to justify what he does, by saying the end justifies the means – exactly what you’re saying.

    You could care less? Wouldn’t expect anyone who supports the murder of people to care.

    Your comparing muslims to nazis – I’m not going to even comment on that ignorant and racist remark.

    So you expect the people of Afghanistan to get up and leave? – get real!

    I know America give aid, like many other countries – but they are dropping bombs alongside the aid – that’s the problem.

    Ian Glass:

    I wasn’t comparing the previous military action to the current one – I was saying they have suffered enough, using the previous wars as examples.

    Originally posted by Ian Glass
    None of us here in America, with the exception possibly of Jigga, want to have civilian causalities.
    That’s not the impression I get, as Apen said “he could care less”.

    I’m not labelling all Americans under one heading – people in this thread seem to be labelling muslims as the enemy (them and us).

    Originally posted by Ian Glass
    This isn’t like the IRA; this isn’t like the PLO. Those groups never committed such a perverse and despicable act.
    I live in Birmingham (UK) – and this is what happened yesterday night:

    “Police suspect dissident Irish republicans are responsible for a car bomb which exploded in a nightclub district. The device went off in a street crowded with people on their way to clubs. Warnings were given, but they did not reveal where the device had been planted.
    Police sources say the warnings used code consistent with the Real IRA, which is opposed to the peace process in Northern Ireland. There were no injuries, but they believed the bomb had been located to cause maximum damage.

    Luckily no one was hurt, but that’s VERY close to home, I go by there quite a lot.

    Originally posted by Ian Glass
    Civilian causalities are a horrible part of war. If you can’t stomach civilian causalities, don’t wage war.
    I don’t remember waging a war against anyone…must of slipped my mind.

    I HATE the Taliban – they are just fanatical loonies, but I don’t expect “civilised” countries to think its fine to kill civilians in order to try and catch a few terrorists.

    Originally posted by Ian Glass
    O.K. I can see here that you foreigners just don't get it. Do you?
    ooh that’s the fist time I’ve been called a foreigner, but I will say, I think its YOU that don’t get “it”.

    I’ll finish off with:

    It seems to me that all certain people want is revenge, they don’t care about anything else, they want blood! Americans are very patriotic, as are many other nationalities. Muslims are different, they are much more concerned with fellow muslims – whether they be in Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan – or wherever, an attack on any muslim, is seen as an attack on all (i.e. when Bin Laden attacked America, all Americans saw that as an attack on them). They try and help out each other through aid/medicine/clothes etc. EVERY muslim that I know has condemned what Bin Laden did, yet I cant help feeling the majority of the people out there don’t blame Bin Laden, but muslims in general.

    I know America give aid and help out other countries –I’m sure there are many muslims that are grateful for it. Yet the only muslims that get any publicity are the fanatics, which just makes things worse.

    Many people are saying that they America wont just sit there and do nothing. So what would you recommended the muslim countries to do about:

    - America helping Israel's 34-year illegal military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza as the Palestinian intifada rages.
    - The Sudan Bombing’s

    Would it be ok for the muslim countries to start bombing American military installations? I’m not comparing trying to compare with what happened on Sept 11th, but do you see my point?

    And if you read that all – well done

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    Ok Kamran, I'm really getting sick of asking this question, so I'll ask one more time: what is your solution to the problem?

    It seems that so many of you are against bombing Afghanistan, and that's fine. To be honest, I was never 100% "for it". But at the same time, I realized it was probably our best option and the only way to let terrorists know that we're not going to sit here and take it.

    You're right, Americans are extremely patriotic, especially right now. I wouldn't have to think twice about dying for this country. I love it, that's all there is to it. I love our privileges and our freedoms, I even love our government system (even though sometimes I hate it).

    Millions of men and women have died so that I can sit here today, typing away at my computer with people on the other side of the Earth. I'll be damned if I'm going to sit back and watch a few terrorists make those millions of deaths a lost cause. As an American, it is our duty to protect the land and freedom that is ours. I'm ashamed of any American who thinks otherwise.

    If you have a solution, I would love to hear it, as I'm sure everyone else here would. The way it sounds, you want us to just sit back and watch what happens next. Next time it could be your 5000 brothers and sisters that are slaughtered as the world watches on. What will you say then? Will you still sit back?

    You constantly are asking us to look at the situation from an Afghans view. Now I'm asking you to look at the situation from an Americans view. Try it once...
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    SitePoint Zealot Kamran's Avatar
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    Hi,

    What would I do?

    - I would have bombed any large military installations (and that’s not the same as constant bombing every day for the past three weeks).
    - I would of sent any allied forces (British, American etc) to the Northern Alliances part of Afghanistan.

    And basically from there, tried to taken over the country – with the help of the people from within Afghanistan. And I think that would have worked much better.

    Then once Afghanistan was taken over, form a transitional government with the former king, Zahir Shah in charge.

    I know its one thing to say, and another to do, but I do think the allied forces would have done much better helping the Northern Alliance side-by-side. It would have also shut Osama up with his “this is a war on Islam/Muslims”.

    Just a suggestion.

    Kam

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    Thank you for taking the time to develop a possible solution, I really do appreciate hearing an alternative plan.

    The Northern Alliance will never be able to create a legitimate government. The Northern Alliance is a group of tribes that comprise of less than 25% of the country. I can guarantee you that the other 75% of the country will not be happy with the "new government", making it illegitimate. It doesn't make much sense replacing an illegitimate government (Taliban) with another illegitimate government (Northern Alliance), they'll still have many of the same problems. On another note, should we seriously be interfering with their Civil War?

    So with bombing the military installations and becoming friends with the NA, you think this will give you enough power to just "take over the country". I wish it were that simple.

    However, I do agree that any further bombing is becoming useless. How much more can there be to bomb? But I think it could be just a cover-up for what's really going on. I don't think our military is stupid enough to sit around and bomb nothing without getting something out of the situation. I have confidence that there are more ground crews over there then we know about.

    After the country is taken over you want to establish a new government. Ok. It's not that easy to just set up a new system, it has to be integrated. I think placing the former King would be something worthwhile for a temporary solution, but nothing definite. Maybe then he would be able to set up the Democratic System he once tried for.

    We're constantly getting criticized for our foreign policy, especially since we trained bin Laden. Now you want us to go in and help/train another radical group so they can wreak havoc in a few years? The Northern Alliance are not the "good guys", they're just the lesser of two evils.
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