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  1. #51
    SitePoint Zealot Marek Bereza's Avatar
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    Technology is getting to a point where it doesn't matter which platform you use, because you'll never find a way to use all your resources up. A good example of this is the new G4 doing 128 tracks of audio with dynamica and 8 EQ's on each channel if that means anything to you. What I'm saying is that in a year or two, it will be down to what the OS looks like, or --- What the computer looks like. Then apple will win out because there are no clones bringing down their name
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  2. #52
    What? Maelstrom's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Marek Bereza
    Technology is getting to a point where it doesn't matter which platform you use, because you'll never find a way to use all your resources up. A good example of this is the new G4 doing 128 tracks of audio with dynamica and 8 EQ's on each channel if that means anything to you. What I'm saying is that in a year or two, it will be down to what the OS looks like, or --- What the computer looks like. Then apple will win out because there are no clones bringing down their name
    That would be interesting to see. But you are also assuming that the pc industry will totally stagnate. I wouldn't really count on that either. It will be interesting to watch. But if in the end it comes down to looks instead of performance. I think the cloning companies and even the big shooters will make things 'look' pretty to keep sales.
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  3. #53
    SitePoint Wizard dominique's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Maelstrom
    But you are also assuming that the pc industry will totally stagnate.
    I wouldn't count on it either, but it brings up an interesting observation I've made since the GHz processors became mainstream.

    Is it just me or does it seem like each new realease of a faster processor is no longer a big deal today? Back when we were still in the MHz range and we used to have a 400Mhz computer, when the neighbour got a 500Mhz system we all thought it was best thing to happen since sliced bread! 100MHz more, wow, that's amazing!

    Nowadays we have a 1.3GHz system and we couldn't possibly care less about the neighbour's new 1.4GHz. Big deal, it's only .1 better, that's so insignificant!

    I think the decimal GHz numbers have really taken all the interest out of each new processor release. But then again, it may just be me.

  4. #54
    What? Maelstrom's Avatar
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    Originally posted by dominique
    I wouldn't count on it either, but it brings up an interesting observation I've made since the GHz processors became mainstream.

    Is it just me or does it seem like each new realease of a faster processor is no longer a big deal today? Back when we were still in the MHz range and we used to have a 400Mhz computer, when the neighbour got a 500Mhz system we all thought it was best thing to happen since sliced bread! 100MHz more, wow, that's amazing!

    Nowadays we have a 1.3GHz system and we couldn't possibly care less about the neighbour's new 1.4GHz. Big deal, it's only .1 better, that's so insignificant!

    I think the decimal GHz numbers have really taken all the interest out of each new processor release. But then again, it may just be me.
    Thats because the difference only really matters to two groups of people, heavy load software developers (more ram is more useful than full speed) and gamers. I used to be a hardcore gamer and I know the feeling of getting that extra bit of speed from a computer. In reality even getting to the gz point is useless. Most people couold use a 800 or so with more ram.

    I did forget one other user. Networks need speed all the time. They just combine a whole bunch of boxes anyways.

    A now intel is 'finaly' converting their chip type over. For years they talked of moving over to a risc style processor. I am not sure if that is where they are headed but the new design means a 'huge' change in the industry. Everyone will have a whole new set of computers to program for. Because these chips aren't going to be backwards compatible with anything.
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  5. #55
    SitePoint Wizard dominique's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Maelstrom
    A now intel is 'finaly' converting their chip type over. For years they talked of moving over to a risc style processor. I am not sure if that is where they are headed but the new design means a 'huge' change in the industry. Everyone will have a whole new set of computers to program for. Because these chips aren't going to be backwards compatible with anything.
    That will be interesting to see how long it takes RISC to be adopted and how long it will take Intel to actually make a hard push for the RISC processors.

    Like you said, they aren't backwards compatible, which means 99.999999% of the code out there won't work. I seriously doubt that Intel will abandon their current CISC architecture any day soon. Even given that RISC processors are much faster and more efficient, convincing people to throw out all the software they already bought will be a steep hill for Intel to climb.

    I don't think people will mind buying a new OS with their new RISC computer, but buying a new Office, a new Dreamweaver, a new Quicken whatever, a new anti-virus, a new DVD player, a new CD-R/RW burning software, new games and new whatever else will quickly add up to many many $$$$! It could easily double the price of your new computer.

    There is also this dilema: No one will code for RISC computers if no one owns RISC computers and no one will buy RISC computer if no one codes for RISC computers!

    As I said, it will be neat to see how this infinite loop will solve itself.

  6. #56
    What? Maelstrom's Avatar
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    The end of the loop will only come when intel gives up on cisc. (as you said) IT is basically at its limit and they just keep squeezing the speed not getting much further. They can only do a few things. Make every computer multi processor or change the architecture. I can't wait to see it will either mean a computer evelution or just some dumb upgrades.

    I'm not rich and can't afford the new systems but honestly. Things in computers (pc's in particular) haven't changed in forever. The last time something new was introduced seems like a long time. Most 'new' innovations are just rehashes of old slower models. Thats why I haven't upgraded my system (its core anyways) because it won't make a diff

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  7. #57
    SitePoint Wizard dominique's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Maelstrom
    Things in computers (pc's in particular) haven't changed in forever. The last time something new was introduced seems like a long time. Most 'new' innovations are just rehashes of old slower models.
    The last true evolution in computing architecture dates back to 1978 when Intel introduced it's third generation of processors, the 8086. Over time modifications, additions and improvements have been made, but even in today's 1.5 GHz Pentium 4s you'll still find architecture from the 8086 in 1978! Even things as rediculous as byte swapping are still in the P4!

    Ever since the 8086 backwards compatibility has reigned supreme. Both Intel and AMD have pledged that they are actively pursuing a move to RISC processors (I think Intel already released one, or will release one soon), but they both know that if they do the move and the other doesn't they're out of bussiness!

    The first semi-mainstream RISC processors may very well come from companies like Motorola that have less to loose than Intel and AMD, but even these processors will only be used in servers or special number crunching systems.

  8. #58
    What? Maelstrom's Avatar
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    Ever since the 8086 backwards compatibility has reigned supreme. Both Intel and AMD have pledged that they are actively pursuing a move to RISC processors (I think Intel already released one, or will release one soon), but they both know that if they do the move and the other doesn't they're out of bussiness!

    The first semi-mainstream RISC processors may very well come from companies like Motorola that have less to loose than Intel and AMD, but even these processors will only be used in servers or special number crunching systems. [/B]
    I believe, I may be wrong as amigas weren't my specialty, weren't amigas actually risc. Anyways even if they were it doesn't make a difference. They both have to make the move. I think the software companies will have to either a) create some sort of backwards shell for the first bit to allow older software to run (similar to the java shell) or give away the next generation software to current owners of software.

    either way I can't wait.

    Oh and doesn't motorolla use risc processors in everything they make. About 5 years back there was talk of them entering the cpu wars.
    Either one will cause waves within the community.
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  9. #59
    SitePoint Wizard dominique's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Maelstrom
    I believe, I may be wrong as amigas weren't my specialty, weren't amigas actually risc.
    You may be right, I don't know much about them either. What I should have said was "the first semi-mainstream RISC processors that don't go flop".



    The Intel RISC processor is called the Itanium. It turns out that it's not excatly a RISC processor, but an EPIC processor (Explicitly Parallel Instruction Computing). I never heard of EPIC but accoring to the FAQ it is supposedly way beyond even RISC.

    I think the software companies will have to either a) create some sort of backwards shell for the first bit to allow older software to run (similar to the java shell) (...)
    There has been talk about that and they will most definitely do it to gain users. If you're familiar with the JAVA JVM, you'll know that virtual machines are always slower than need be.

    The Itanium, according to the FAQ (see Q10), has hardware compatibility with IA-32 architecture (I'm assuming that's today's line of processors since they are 32-bit afterall). But they also warn that it is dependent on many factors.

    But why would I buy a RISC computer that is twice as fast as a CISC computer if it will run at the same speed as the CISC computer when I run all my apps through the shell or in "harware compatibility"? I'd much rather get the CISC at half the price!

    (...) or give away the next generation software to current owners of software.
    Software companies are just like hardware companies who in turn are just like any other company in the open market; they exist to make money, not serve the greater good. No software shop is willing to spend millions of dollars recoding all their apps just to give it away to current users, even if they wanted to, they'd go broke afterwards.

    An open source movement will most likely arise out of this, which will be interesting to watch, since, unlike now were a few key players have come to dominate the field, the new RISC architecture will bring forth an I-was-here-first competitive spirit open to all.

    Oh and doesn't motorolla use risc processors in everything they make. About 5 years back there was talk of them entering the cpu wars.
    True, but its processors are not quite mainstream yet, well, at least not as far as the general public is concerned.

    either way I can't wait.
    (...)
    Either one will cause waves within the community.
    Same here, it will be very exiting. However Q9 in the FAQ does state that Intel has no plans of replacing the IA-32 processors with the new 64-bit processors. My assembler teacher doesn't think it will happen in his lifetime, and he's not even that old, but I can still dream!



    Hehehe, I think we've commandeered this thread and made it WAY off topic!

  10. #60
    What? Maelstrom's Avatar
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    Originally posted by dominique
    But why would I buy a RISC computer that is twice as fast as a CISC computer if it will run at the same speed as the CISC computer when I run all my apps through the shell or in "harware compatibility"? I'd much rather get the CISC at half the price!
    Well it depends on the focus group to start they will hit the multimedia creators. Any new power offered that elite group they suck up. 'IF' it is as great as expected than it will works its way down the system.
    Multimedia -> engineers -> Geeks and games -> (few years from now) regular people.

    By that point the software will have caught up. It has to be a smooth transition. if they try to force it down our throats I think they will loose the focus they need.

    Software companies are just like hardware companies who in turn are just like any other company in the open market; they exist to make money, not serve the greater good. No software shop is willing to spend millions of dollars recoding all their apps just to give it away to current users, even if they wanted to, they'd go broke afterwards.

    An open source movement will most likely arise out of this, which will be interesting to watch, since, unlike now were a few key players have come to dominate the field, the new RISC architecture will bring forth an I-was-here-first competitive spirit open to all.
    <!-- Waiting patiently -->

    Hehehe, I think we've commandeered this thread and made it WAY off topic! [/B]
    I do believe you are right. But I think it is a topic worth discussing. Besides I have always been a hardware geek it nice to flex that side of my brain.

    Feel our combined power
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  11. #61
    SitePoint Wizard dominique's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Maelstrom
    Feel our combined power
    It feels good! But I'm running out of things to say!

    I wonder what AMD is doing. They must be developping something as well...

  12. #62
    What? Maelstrom's Avatar
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    Originally posted by dominique
    It feels good! But I'm running out of things to say!

    I wonder what AMD is doing. They must be developping something as well...
    I love AMD chips. But in the end they are followers traditionally. If they do come out with the 'new' chip standard I will be quite pleased

    But yes I think this thread has just about run out.
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  13. #63
    SitePoint Zealot Marek Bereza's Avatar
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    i dont know if anyones said this already or if anyone cares, but macs (after 68ks) use RISC processing and have been for like 5 years already
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  14. #64
    What? Maelstrom's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Marek Bereza
    i dont know if anyones said this already or if anyone cares, but macs (after 68ks) use RISC processing and have been for like 5 years already
    No one said that but I assumed that it was assumed. The powerMac /PC's used them as well to make up for the speed lots between operating systems right?

    I do agree mac is a faster more efficient system especially for those who don't want to deal with compatibility issues. But they also proved one thing. Price matter a whole lot to the majority of the buying public.
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