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May 14, 2006, 23:25 #201
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Originally Posted by Kiren
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May 15, 2006, 00:22 #202
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Yes, I completely understand that
I sometimes have the same problem with CSS designs :P
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May 15, 2006, 00:50 #203
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Originally Posted by JFS
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May 15, 2006, 05:31 #204
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Originally Posted by nacho
Originally Posted by nacho
Too bad I don't have the time to get into some challenge, but I surely would like to see us both coding the same application in order to probe what you're saying
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May 15, 2006, 05:56 #205
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Originally Posted by Kiren
Originally Posted by McGruff
Or perhaps hire someone who you're sure knows his stuff, but who is too expensive/overqualified. But just hire him for a week, and use him as a consultant to assert the actual candidates.
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May 15, 2006, 07:39 #206
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Turning yourself into an user is often the best test
I think that trying the program by yourself, pushing it to its ends, while pushing yourself to yours thinking of what happens and can happen, is sometimes the best way you can afford to know in a reasonably short time frame if a program is good or not.
Digging into the code, even if you are a trained developer, can tell you only if you have the time to do it with really the care and effort this always implies if you want to be effective. Plenty bugs that have annoyed developer teams and users for years have come from that: too fast and superficial inspecting of code (no matter with which tools, from visual fast reading, to automated test sets) - when it's not too fast tweaking of the code...
Paris, Mon 15 May 2006 16:39:45 +0200
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May 15, 2006, 09:57 #207
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Originally Posted by McGruff
Originally Posted by McGruff
Originally Posted by McGruff
There’s more than one way to skin a cat.
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May 15, 2006, 10:57 #208
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TDD is all well and good, but I've never seen it being practiced in an actual corporate environment. My overlords don't expect me to test my code. We have a team of QA people to do that. I am expected to churn out lots of code. Quality? Who needs it.
That said, I have experimented with TDD on personal projects, and can see how some might find it useful. Myself, I'll stick to more traditional methods of unit testing.
Back to the topic...
Part of the reason a lot of forums, phpbb specicially comes to mind, are a mess of a code is simply their evolution. The code base was created before there were strong OO capabilities in PHP, before there were thousands upon thousands of code quality advocates. In the short-term, more money is made by adding features...not by rewriting your existing (and functional) code base.
Another reason could be that most developers simply don't care. If you're careful, and you know what you're doing, and you don't care about future maintenance, what's wrong with globals? What's wrong with spaghetti code? What's wrong with procedural code?
The answer to all those is "nothing". Nothing is wrong with PHPBB provided you A) understand what's happening (I assume the developers do), B) don't care about ease of integration for outsiders (it should be obvious that this isn't a priority), and C) can ignore the pleading of morally superior coders.
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May 15, 2006, 12:10 #209
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Originally Posted by nacho
What I've never done is heard a serious critique of testing from someone who truly does understand what it's all about but nevertheless has chosen to reject it. I'd be interested to hear why you decided it's not for you.
the ones that really got my interest have not been measured by their PHP knowledge, but by their analytic insight
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May 15, 2006, 12:25 #210
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Originally Posted by Viflux
My overlords don't expect me to test my code. We have a team of QA people to do that. I am expected to churn out lots of code. Quality? Who needs it.
And testing is about much, much more than merely testing...
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May 15, 2006, 12:43 #211
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Originally Posted by McGruff
Originally Posted by McGruff
The kind of testing you're talking about works wonderfully well in theory. In practice, however, it slows down the coding stage. Not the entire process, since it cuts down on the latter stages, but that's not what matters. Get it coded, get it out of our department, and let the maintenance programmers fix the bugs. That's our mantra.
Anyways, this isn't a thread to debate the merits of no-testing vs. unit-testing vs. test-driven-development. That gets discussed enough in other threads.
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May 15, 2006, 12:50 #212
Originally Posted by Viflux
Personally, I hate working without a good suite of unit tests now - I just don't have the confidence to refactor and be sure I'm not breaking anything without them, and I find that TDD leads me towards better, simpler designs.
The kind of testing you're talking about works wonderfully well in theory. In practice, however, it slows down the coding stage. Not the entire process, since it cuts down on the latter stages, but that's not what matters. Get it coded, get it out of our department, and let the maintenance programmers fix the bugs. That's our mantra.
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May 15, 2006, 12:52 #213
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> the ones that really got my interest have not been measured by their PHP knowledge, but by their
> analytic insight,
I would even venture as far as to say that if I was in your situation, and that someone proved to have a half decent ability at solving problems at the more complex level, and have no TDD experience, I'd be more interested in that individual.
Simple because given enough tutition, anyone can learn TDD, but that isn't the case with everyone in that there are those that have no ability at breaking a problem down and solving it, and in such a manner that the solution is environmentally safe in regards to the existing code base.
Really, this is the sort of stuff that determines if you are a developer or not in my eyes. Sorry for going off topic
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May 15, 2006, 13:46 #214
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Originally Posted by McGruff
The term "testing" is actually a misnomer, as TDD is actually guiding the development.
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May 16, 2006, 03:51 #215
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Until venturing on this forum I'd never heard the term TDD, anyone got a few good links for me to read, specifically with examples.
Edit, scratch the above, I'm reading through lastcrafts site.
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May 16, 2006, 07:16 #216
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Would you like to try a quick TDD session using SimpleTest here on the forum?
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May 16, 2006, 11:12 #217
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Originally Posted by McGruff
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May 16, 2006, 11:29 #218
Originally Posted by G3D
Dave Astels' (author of Test Driven Development: A Practical Guide) original article on BDD can be found here.
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May 16, 2006, 11:31 #219
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Are there any plans to port rSpec to PHP?
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May 16, 2006, 11:55 #220
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Originally Posted by G3D
We'd better start a new topic. I've tried an online question-and-answer TDD session a few times before but they all seemed to just fizzle out. If you agree, I'll pick a very simple problem which should be easy to solve but will demonstrate the principles. I'm working at the moment, then taking a dinner break, but watch out for a new topic later.
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May 16, 2006, 12:18 #221
Originally Posted by BerislavLopac
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May 16, 2006, 12:33 #222
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Originally Posted by McGruff
I'm just starting out with TDD, and to be honest, it's trickier than I thought at first. Any decent topic written in plain to read English would be a boon for sure
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May 19, 2006, 02:39 #223
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I'm trying to find the place where they actually give the variable a value.
You see, firstly, you look at index.php, then you find out the startup file is global.php, however, global.php includes init.php, which in turn uses functions from functions.php, then includes session.php which calls a function that find the userinfo from cookies.
Right now I have a DB error coming from somewhere (a cronjob), but I can't even find where in the system it is executing this query.
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May 20, 2006, 16:29 #224
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Originally Posted by Luke Redpath
PHP Code:/** @context Stuff */
class TestOfStuff extends UnitTestCase
{
/** @should do foo when qux */
function test_foo_when_qux() {
}
}
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May 20, 2006, 17:14 #225
Mmm...its not very DRY though is it? Seems a bit pointless.
Plus, you wouldn't be able to do stuff like:
PHP Code:(2 + 2).should.be 4
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