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  1. #76
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    ian, you'll have to excuse our dear friend Shin Ma. He's from France where socialism is the preferred method of politics.

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  2. #77
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    The same law is applicable in the UK (incitement to racial hatred). Socialism is not our brand of politics. It's also true in germany.
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  3. #78
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    Look if it takes away your basic huiman freedom of speech and expression (which is basic enough that it made our Constitution), then it's socialism. I understand that that is not the dictionary definition of socialism. I also respect the fact that a society which values freedom of speech and expression, however wonderful it is, allows obvious open doors for abuse such as racial hatred. I don't agree with racial hatred in the slightest bit, but I will defend a person's right to have that opinion and express it. Now if that expression crosses the lines by turning violent or depriving others of their basic human rights it has gone too far. But just because someone is a bigot and has absolutely no sensitivity does not mean that their freedom of expression should be taken away from him by revoking election rights etc. In America, you lose your right to vote because you're a felon, not because you hate black people. Everyone's got a voice. Ironically, I'm with Ian on this one.

    I draw the line when racial violence is involved. If it crosses the lines of other laws, then book 'em, but otherwise, speech is free speech no matter how asinine it is.

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  4. #79
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    Believe it or not I agree with you Sketch. I too think that free speech should be just that - free. The incitement law can be abused so that ugly opinion falls within its remit. I don't agree with that. At its core though, the law is about prosecuting someone whos words result in racial hatred from others - something which does both real and measurable damage.

    I have a fundemental problem with Criminals not being allowed to vote. It smacks of veiled control and detracts from the validity of the freedom you espouse.
    Let me expain. The government of a country that I have democratically elected (Imaginestan) outlaw using the internet. I consider this law a little ridiculous, and decide to vote against this government at the next election. I do not get that opportunity. They decide to make the law retrospective (plenty of precedent), and I am imprisoned for my heinous use of Sitepoint. I am now in a position where I have broken a law, making me a criminal, and I have no power or voice to change the law. - you see the problem.

    I consider that a huge abuse of human rights (and its common to many countries).

    Going back to the racism thing - often such "opinions", when pointed at minority groups or individuals, can elicit fear and apprehension of real physical injury. In that case the comments would constitute assault under UK, French, and US law, making this argument more than a little academic.
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  5. #80
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    hey H....

    you know something? you're right about the prisoner thing. I never looked at it that way, but now that you mentioned it, you managed to change my opinion...

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  6. #81
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    H,

    As long as you are talking about criminals that have served their time and no longer in prison, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Once they have made their penance (for lack of a better word) and have re-entered society, I have always thought they should have their voting rights re-instated.

    However, if you are talking about all prisoners, I must respectfully disagree. Part of being in prison is the absense of basic civil liberties. Voting is one such liberty. Can you imagine the chaos that would ensue in a local election for District Attorney(main prosecutorial entity in the US justice system) if the criminals they imprisoned were allowed to vote in that election?
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  7. #82
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    I agree with you too, David. Let them vote after coming out of prison.

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  8. #83
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    But what if the prison term (in my example) was twenty years? Elections every four years..... I can see the problems, but I still think there is something unsound about the way the system can be self-enforcing there.
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  9. #84
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    Well, I can't speak for most countries, but as far as I know, laws aren't allowed to be retroactive in the US. There is a case around here where a man is charged with contributing to the death of another by supplying the ammunition used in the death. The incident itself occured in the 1960's. Today that action is allowed to be charged with murder, but because the law in that form was not established until the 1970's, he was only charged with a more minor charge.

    Also, in the US, if people behave in prison and are not considered a threat to society (murderer, rapist, large-scale drug trafficker), it is very rare for them to serve more than 25% of their time before they are released on parole. So in your case, they would be in 5-10 years max before release IF they behaved themselves. That's one or two elections.
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  10. #85
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TheOriginalH
    But what if the prison term (in my example) was twenty years? Elections every four years..... I can see the problems, but I still think there is something unsound about the way the system can be self-enforcing there.
    Nope. There's plenty of time to think about how to avoid being in this situation in the first place BEFORE doing something stupid and going to jail. Afterwards it's too late. You'll have to serve your term and when you get out gripe and b**** about how bad and unfair society is. While you're in prison, you have no rights.

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  11. #86
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    My point is that occassionaly it is the law that is stupid("the law is an ***" ), not the person. Thought the retrospective thing applied in the US too - soory, my bad. The fact that it doesn't does change the dynamic of what I'm saying a little. The problem can be highlighted with real life examples - homosexuality for example.

    H

    (ps: You still have fundemental human rights while in prison).
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  12. #87
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    Originally posted by Sketch


    Nope. There's plenty of time to think about how to avoid being in this situation in the first place BEFORE doing something stupid and going to jail. Afterwards it's too late. You'll have to serve your term and when you get out gripe and b**** about how bad and unfair society is. While you're in prison, you have no rights.

    Sketch
    In this case, he's talking about retroactive laws, where it was legal at the time of the action, but is illegal now and can prosecute for things already done. I can agree with his example to an extent. Like I explained in my previous post, that doesn't happen (at least I don't know of an example that has been able to stand the weight of constitutional challenge)
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  13. #88
    SitePoint Wizard Ian Glass's Avatar
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    If this turns into a big, happy love-fest, I'm going to stop patronizing this thread!

    However, I do have a huge problem with felons not being able to vote, but, also, you should note that a felon is not someone who's commited a mistermeaner, it's someone who commited a pritty big crime like murder or spying (and thier likley to be vioting for Nader anyway). The big problem with stripping the right to vote is that it's perminent. I figure that once someone has served thier time, all thier rights and privlages should be renstated (absent of probation, of course), but not sooner.

    Now on to the 'racism thing.' This does sound like a good idea--stop people from inciting racial vileance. But, that's not what it does--it's a law that alows individual's in power to exercies political vendetas. Who defines 'hateful language'?

    Personaly I feal that the word 'hate' it thrown around way too much as it is. People have decribed Jigga's comments as hateful, but this is not haw I would clasify it. I'd call it ignorance (how many 'minorities' are there in MI?) and childish.

    I remember when Bill Mar of 'Pliticaly Incorect' compared retarded people to dogs. ARC calld this hate speach, but, agian, I'd classify it as ignorance. I doubt that Mr. Mar had ever had more expoesure than the show Corky to retarded persons.

    Hate is when you want phisical harm to occur a person or gorup of persons. Jigga just sayed that he didn't care what happend to minorites and drop-outs. That's no threat of real harm, hence it's not hate speach--just ignrance.

  14. #89
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    Prisoners have too many rights as it is. Give me a break, sex sessions with your wife? Hell, if I was deprived from sex with my wife for 10 years, you can bet I'd never go back.
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  15. #90
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    Originally posted by RKuhle
    Prisoners have too many rights as it is. Give me a break, sex sessions with your wife? Hell, if I was deprived from sex with my wife for 10 years, you can bet I'd never go back.
    I'd have to say I agree with this one to an extent. While there are basic human rights that need to be preserved, those in the US prison system(note I am clarifying that since the US is the only system I am familiar with) are offered opportunities many in the rest of society are not able to participate. College education at free to no cost (I can see GED and basic life skills, but I have a problem with people getting masters, doctorates and law degrees at little or no cost). Free cable, not being able to have the prisoners do basic manual labor to subsidize their imprisonment. Those types of things are wrong.
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  16. #91
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    Originally posted by DaveMaxwell


    I'd have to say I agree with this one to an extent. While there are basic human rights that need to be preserved, those in the US prison system(note I am clarifying that since the US is the only system I am familiar with) are offered opportunities many in the rest of society are not able to participate. College education at free to no cost (I can see GED and basic life skills, but I have a problem with people getting masters, doctorates and law degrees at little or no cost). Free cable, not being able to have the prisoners do basic manual labor to subsidize their imprisonment. Those types of things are wrong.
    Furthermore, I think they should have to "pay off" their stay, whether it be through work while in prison or when they get out. This specifically applies to education. Although I realize that they may not be able to work off their whole stay, they should work off some. I don't even have cable!

    They have already caused an injustice, society has already paid its price, now we must pay again?

    I know one thing, if I were homeless and had no other options, I would commit a crime.
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  17. #92
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Ian Glass
    (how many 'minorities' are there in MI?) and childish.
    Be careful, Ian. Little do you know, obviously, that Michigan has the largest Arabic population in the United States....

    Detroit's a huge city too making it a predominantly black city.

    So Michigan has a large minority population...

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  18. #93
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    Originally posted by Ian Glass
    Now on to the 'racism thing.' This does sound like a good idea--stop people from inciting racial vileance. But, that's not what it does--it's a law that alows individual's in power to exercies political vendetas. Who defines 'hateful language'?
    Stop people from inciting racial violence? Shouldn't we just focus on stopping violence altogether, regardless of race, sex, or religion? Is a crime against a black man more of a crime than one against a white man?

    Personaly I feal that the word 'hate' it thrown around way too much as it is. People have decribed Jigga's comments as hateful, but this is not haw I would clasify it. I'd call it ignorance (how many 'minorities' are there in MI?) and childish.

    I actually agree. I classify racism as one of the highest stages of ignorance. That's why I never get too upset about it, why worry about ignorant people?

    I remember when Bill Mar of 'Pliticaly Incorect' compared retarded people to dogs. ARC calld this hate speach, but, agian, I'd classify it as ignorance. I doubt that Mr. Mar had ever had more expoesure than the show Corky to retarded persons.
    Nah, not hate speech, just sheer ignorance. He is extremely ignorant, that's why I enjoy his show.

    Oh, another thing, you just referred to someone who may be mentally challenged as being "retarded". THAT my friend is sheer ignorance. But again, I don't worry about ignorant people, I've got better things to do with my time...



    Hate is when you want phisical harm to occur a person or gorup of persons. Jigga just sayed that he didn't care what happend to minorites and drop-outs. That's no threat of real harm, hence it's not hate speach--just ignrance.
    Since when? At different times in my life I can say that I have "hated" something, but I would never wish physical harm against them. Hate can not be defined by an action or the desire of an action. Hate is a belief, almost a speech that someone can hold. Because it is a belief, I have not and will not support "hate crime" legislation. A crime is a crime. Most crimes already possess hate, otherwise why would the attacker commit the crime? Anyway, this is a different topic altogether.
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  19. #94
    SitePoint Wizard Ian Glass's Avatar
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    Oh, another thing, you just referred to someone who may be mentally challenged as being "retarded". THAT my friend is sheer ignorance.
    'Mentally Challenged' is 'retarded'; they have just changed the name because people use 'retatded' to flipently--same with 'idiot', 'imbesel' (sp?), and others.

    There're many level of retardation; not everyone who is retareded can make it on thier own, but most can. Corkey, by the way, had down syndrome, witch is offten accompened with retardation {http://www.ndss.org/aboutds/aboutds.html#PPdevelopment}. Remember that retardation is simply low IQ accompened by a lack of adaptive skils {http://www.thearc.org/faqs/mrqa.html}. Anyway, I'm glad that you don't worry about me too much; you should spend your time wisely...

    But, your right about one thing, PI wouldn't exisit if Mr. Mar actualy sayed something intelegent on a regular basis.

    I'm not going to get into arguing definitions, I've alredy done that in this thread. Hate is a very seroius word to me--I'd like to refer you to the first sentence in the second quote you grabed from my post. For instance, I'd say that most klansmen are not hateful, or they would be commiting crimes (I think most new members of the KKK are just kids trying to get back at thier parrents like neo-nazi and satenists), but they are very ignorant.

    I'd also like to point out that not all crimes are hateful, many are just accedents or not directed at anyone or group in particular. I do support the rational behind hate-crime legistation: un-provoked targeting of an individual simply for skin color, etc. should not be tolerated in the slightest, and the government should do everything within it's power to detur it. As well as other crimes.

    CORRECTION: I falsly wrote that Corky had CP; he did not, he had down syndrome. Sorry for any confusion.
    Last edited by Ian Glass; Nov 1, 2001 at 11:09.

  20. #95
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    Al Gore is a fellow Tennessean born with a silver spoon in his mouth but not much sense in his brain.

    Had he run for governorship of our state, he would have lost and retreated into the foothills of the Smokey Mountains due to embarrassment and shame.

    Sound familiar???

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  21. #96
    SitePoint Wizard Ian Glass's Avatar
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    Be careful, Ian. Little do you know, obviously, that Michigan has the largest Arabic population in the United States....
    Acctualy I did know this (NC has a pritty big Arabic population, too, if I'm not mistaken), and the fact that Detroit is mainly black (with, I belive, a high population of Faricon's (sp?) racist Nation of Islam group {btw, where I live has the largest population in the country, I think}).

    However, I still misspoke. Indeed, I should have said that MI, while diverse, is also lagrly segregated. Jigga still, likley, has not had that much exposure to minorities, but, of course, I could be wrong about that...

    P.S. Sketch, I would have responded sooner, but I seem to have inadvertently skiped over your post, sorry.

  22. #97
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    yeah yeah yeah! You were just ignoring me! I know...you were aying, "I'm not going to respond to that damn conservative republican yum-yo!"

    I know you were...

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  23. #98
    SitePoint Wizard Ian Glass's Avatar
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    Damn, Sketch, you cought me, you freek'n 'yum-yo'...

    P.S. This has nothing to do with the above, but is it just me, or have I been using alot of split infinitives?

  24. #99
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    honestly, i have no idea what a split infinitive is...

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  25. #100
    SitePoint Wizard Ian Glass's Avatar
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    Nither do I, that's why I ask'n you guys here... All I know is that "To quickly run" is a split infenitive is, but I don't know why. I always get parenthetical phrases and split infenitives mixed up, I think (damn).


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