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  1. #101
    SitePoint Wizard Ian Glass's Avatar
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    Wait a second, I want the hundredth post!

    Ohh, I got a new page too... YEA!

    Contune on now...

  2. #102
    will code HTML for food Michel V's Avatar
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    Originally posted by RKuhle
    Stop people from inciting racial violence? Shouldn't we just focus on stopping violence altogether, regardless of race, sex, or religion? Is a crime against a black man more of a crime than one against a white man?
    No. But if it's proven the 'appearance' of the victim is the motive of the murder, as it's the case a lot of times, it is worse than another crime.

    If tomorrow I find a black man in bed with my wife and I kill him, it would be because I saw him doing things with my wife, that's not a racial hate crime - I would have done that anyway if the guy was white/blue/whatever, though it's clear I would hate the guy; I would hate the wife too but that's a different topic.
    If, otherwise, I see the same black man in another situation, and I think "let's kill the [insert racial slur] !", then it's a racial hate crime. Hasn't that been debated enough ?


    I actually agree. I classify racism as one of the highest stages of ignorance. That's why I never get too upset about it, why worry about ignorant people?
    Yes, why worry ? After all, not worrying much about ignorance makes racist political parties be so strong in Europe. Because ignorant people vote. They rush to vote for their hateful party. Those who do not worry do not vote as much. In the end some racist party is at the head of Austria, and a fascist guy is at the head of Italia.
    But these are ignorant people... why worry uh ?


    And to Sketch, I think talking politics with you is a guaranteed dead end if your only way to consider my points is to say 'oh well, socialists'. Or has human respect of one-another become a socialist value overnight ?
    Moreover, just what makes you think socialists are people against freedom ? MacCarthist much ?
    Last edited by Michel V; Nov 1, 2001 at 13:57.

  3. #103
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Socialism...ugh. What an idealistic view of the world. It undermines the very nature of mankind. I'd just as soon suggest that we create buildings in the sky, because it would save room. Sure, humans can't fly, but it's still a good idea! A good idea isn't really good if it depends on mankind going against it's very nature. Socialism/communism is a good idea when you ignore the way we are built, and the way most people are bound to behave. Like I said: idealistic.

    I for one am sick of this singling out of racial issues. People are more concerned with a murder based on racial hate, than they are with a murder based on some other kind of hate. How ridiculous is that? We've got MTV giving more air time to these anti-discrimination commercials than they do to The Red Cross as a form of charity. That's sick.

    Racism is an overblown issue. It is an issue, but it is overblown nonetheless. By the way some people act, you'd think that it's the worst problem we have. Go crusade against child molestors...once we've wiped out most of them, then we can look at things like racism and discrimination...it's sad that so many much more serious crimes and offenses are put on the back-burner because of stupid buzzword-slogans like "hate crimes." Crimes are almost universally hate crimes. Call them "race crimes" at least. At least have it making some friggin' sense.

  4. #104
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    Shin Ma.

    I appreciate your candidness. I personally feel the term "hate crime" is a misnomer. I work for the Department of Redundancy Department...

    Isn't murder hate? I think it is. Isn't rape hatE? I think it is. I don't thoink
    "Hate crime" would be a good term for a racially motivated crime....perhaps, uh, racially motivated crime would more aptly suit it. I know this wasn't your point but I wanted to bring that issue up anyway.

    As for politics, yes, I believe I'm right and you're wrong. But you feel the same way about me. Not everyone finds socialism a bad thing. I do, but that's me. If that is your point of view, which frankly, I really have no idea if it is or isn't, then fine. I have a fundamental respect for human dignity, don't get me wrong. But I do not feel that I have to live my life differently to please someone else. Likewise, I don't think you should have to change the way you act/live whatever because I might be offended by it. If I'm homosexual (which I emphatically emphasize I am not! ) I do not feel that it is right to demand someone else to change their way of life, their thinking, etc to keep me from being offended. If I am offended by something someone says, I'll be offended but I recognize that not everyone is going to make everyone else happy and I will just go on with my life. Flipping back to me now...if my lifestly, point of view, etc offends someone, I'm sorry about thataI really am, but frankly,you can (and will)get over it. However, if I am pissed off at the way you are and I go and kill you, by God I should be locked up. I think I made this point earlier.

    Anyways, you and I aren't altogether different and forgive me for the socialist comment. I really don't know if you are socialist, and no I'm not a McCarthyist...even if I totally and unequivocally despise socialism.

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  5. #105
    SitePoint Wizard Ian Glass's Avatar
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    I'd just as soon suggest that we create buildings in the sky...
    I've toyed with a similar idea to stop racial vilance... Let me explane:

    In Isreal, the Palenstinans are upset that Jews are neer thier monuments. Likewise, the Jews are upset that the Palenstinans are neer thier monuments. My solution is to build a monument to the one religon on stitls over the monuments of another. That way they cant blow up one monument without bolwing up one of thiers in the process...

    I think is a good idea at least...

  6. #106
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    I know you are syaing that tongue-in-cheek, Ian, but I'll just tell you why that's not realistic. It goes way back in history. The Temple Mount is actually Mount Zion where Solomon's Temple was built. Solomon's Temple was destroyed by the Babylonians when they overtook the nation of Judah and took them into captivity. 70 Year later, Judah returned from captivity. Nehemiah rebuilt the walls of Jerusalem and the Zerrubabel rebuilt Solomon's temple in the same location, on Mt. Zion. Four Hundred years later right before the time of Jesus, Zerubbabel's temple was added onto and enhanced by King Herod, and was renamed Herod's Temple, or the Great Temple. According to Biblical prophecy, the Temple will be rebuilt in all it's glory before Messiah comes. Needless to say, the Temple was a significant and Holy feature of Judaism as is the Temple Mount. In 70 AD, Israel was conquered and scattered until 1948 when the UN allowed them to create a new Israeli State. During this time, in 300 AD, the founder of Islam, Mohammed, claimed to have recieved his inspiration for the Koran at the same location as the Temple Mount. Today, the Dome on the Rock, the Moslem Mosque, is built in its place. No wonder it is a holy place for Moslems!

    So for the Dome to be there is sacrilige ro Jews and for the Dome not to be there, and especially for the Jewish Temple to be built there would be heresy. It will never happen to have them coexist.
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  7. #107
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    Actually, what I would like to see is the city of Jerusalem fall under UN territory, similar to the UN building in New York. The city is the most contested portion between the palestinians and the israeli's. Since it plays a large part of several religions, I'd like to see it become it's own entity.

    The UN created the problem when it recreated Israel after World War II. It would be nice to see them contribute to the solution.

    Just my opinion. Hope I didn't offend anyone...
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  8. #108
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    Dave,

    Have always thought that Jerusalem "ideally" should be a neutral country under the jurisdiction of a neutral group such as the UN because of its importance to the worlds largest religions.

    Watch out toh, allie is becoming "idealistic"!

  9. #109
    Digital Warrior Renegade's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Shin Ma
    If tomorrow I find a black man in bed with my wife and I kill him, it would be because I saw him doing things with my wife, that's not a racial hate crime
    True, but sadly enough, any US defense attorney will say that you killed him because he was black. And if he had been a white guy, you would just have beat him up a little and thrown him out.

    Crimes that are commited that have nothing to do with race, are often turned into a racial crime. Such as the example you gave.

    Sad...but true
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  10. #110
    Digital Warrior Renegade's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DaveMaxwell
    The UN created the problem when it recreated Israel after World War II. It would be nice to see them contribute to the solution.
    Good call, and I think your right. I just wish we knew what the solution was/is
    --There's my 1.5 cents, now where is my change!?!?

  11. #111
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    Chris, I'm glad to see we wholeheartedly agree on something for once.

    Renegade and Sketch, thanks for clarifying what I was trying to say. You did it well.

    Shin Ma, if you read my post again, you'll notice that I said "don't worry". I never said "ignore", believe me, I don't ignore ignorant people, otherwise I wouldn't be here posting.
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  12. #112
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    Realistically, one has to recognize that the UN won't be able to solve this problem. The problem goes beyond political differences and national rivalry. This is an issue that is so fundamentally ingrained into the religious aspect of both Judaeism and Islam that even if the UN stepped in, the violence would not continue. Jerusalem, and more particlarly the Temple Mount is a sacred place and is something to kill for for both sides. The only thing that is keeping Israel from literally steamroilling the Palestinians is the fact that the wrath of the entire Moslem world would turn on them, not just Palestine. I have a feeling that their strongest ally, the US, would also have some reprimanding things to say.

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  13. #113
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    Originally posted by allie
    Dave,

    Have always thought that Jerusalem "ideally" should be a neutral country under the jurisdiction of a neutral group such as the UN because of its importance to the worlds largest religions.

    Watch out toh, allie is becoming "idealistic"!
    .

    Amazingly I have nothing to add. I don't think the UN is the solution, because I'm not sure their ideas are congruent with those of both sides. However, I agree that some sort of neutrality is a good solution. Truth is I haven't got a clue what the answer is. Neither have they - which is why this struggle has continued for so long. Let's hope something good comes out of any talks.
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  14. #114
    Fried Gold Polymath's Avatar
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    I have a solution:
    I would put one hand on Sharon's head, one hand on Arafat's head, and I would engineer a meeting of minds. That should do the trick.

  15. #115
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    Originally posted by Polymath
    I have a solution:
    I would put one hand on Sharon's head, one hand on Arafat's head, and I would engineer a meeting of minds. That should do the trick.
    How about the cones of silence????
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  16. #116
    will code HTML for food Michel V's Avatar
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    OK peeps, can we stop the big BS for just one second ? Do you actually read my posts, or do you see them through the 'french socialist' prism ?


    Originally posted by TWTCommish
    Socialism...ugh. What an idealistic view of the world. It undermines the very nature of mankind. I'd just as soon suggest that we create buildings in the sky, because it would save room. Sure, humans can't fly, but it's still a good idea! A good idea isn't really good if it depends on mankind going against it's very nature. Socialism/communism is a good idea when you ignore the way we are built, and the way most people are bound to behave. Like I said: idealistic.
    You are mistaking socialism with communism and mixing it with ideas of Le Corbusier. Now when did I talk about buildings, mankind etc ? I talked about mutual respect, and respect for the human race as a whole, and not only for those who have a job/money/certain religion.

    Renegade said:
    And if he had been a white guy, you would just have beat him up a little and thrown him out.
    Now that's something terrible you just said. You don't know me, my origins, my upbringing, and the values I defend; and you tell me I would treat a white man differently if I wanted to kill the man ? That's just the very idea I was going against, dude.

    TWT said:
    it's sad that so many much more serious crimes and offenses are put on the back-burner because of stupid buzzword-slogans like "hate crimes." Crimes are almost universally hate crimes. Call them "race crimes" at least. At least have it making some friggin' sense.
    Actually it would be nice if y'all stopped going into that same rhetoric about how hate crimes are not hate crimes etc. Do I have to explain again ? It is just a name for them, get over it even if it's misnamed. Do not ignore the issue just because it's not named appropriately.

    And for your information TWT, racism is a far bigger issue than child molesting, even if the two are different. You know, not every child is subject to being a victim of child molestors, yet every guy who happens not to be colored the same way the locals are, is subject to being a victim of racism. This is not especially crimes. It's not about fighting, gang beating, raping or killing. It is about guys who think the color of your skin, or your ethnicity, makes you a very different kind of man, or even a sub-man, and entitles you to a different treatment. "...'cause a heart speaks louder than a color can.", to simply quote a song.

  17. #117
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    <stepping to Shin Ma's defense>
    I agree with Shin Ma here.....

    I think everybody needs to cool the rhetoric for a bit and actually read what people are syaing here. I have tried to make it a habit not to jump the gun on what I think people are saying and actually endeavor to understand where they are coming from and what they are saying. I have not always been successful. For instance, I wrongly labelled Shin Ma a socialist earlier. It was wrong and a post in the heat of an irritated moment. I took it back later on. Please people, we are in a community here and there are actual literal (believe it or not!) people on the other ends of these posts. Let's give everyone the same respect we would give them in person.

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  18. #118
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    Bravo
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    Originally posted by Shin Ma
    You know, not every child is subject to being a victim of child molestors, yet every guy who happens not to be colored the same way the locals are, is subject to being a victim of racism. This is not especially crimes. It's not about fighting, gang beating, raping or killing. It is about guys who think the color of your skin, or your ethnicity, makes you a very different kind of man, or even a sub-man, and entitles you to a different treatment. "...'cause a heart speaks louder than a color can.", to simply quote a song. [/B]
    Good point Shin Ma, but it's not even local. EVERYONE, whether "minority"(I hate that term) or not, is just as capable of Racism.

    Racism will continue to exist as long as people insist on placing labels on one another. One of my biggest pet peeves right now is the politically correct "*-american" terms floating around the US. The US does not recognize dual citizenship. You are either an American or you're not. If you were born outside the US and became a naturalized citizen then MAYBE I could accept the term. If you were born in the US, you are an American. Period, end of discussion.

    I have no problems with respecting your heritage and the customs of your families, but to use them to classify yourselves and others is just unfair to everyone. No one is simply their heritage. Everyone brings a unique quality and gift to the world (OK, so maybe the world would have been better off without some peoples gifts), so why limit yourself to a label?

    OK, I'm done ranting now...
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  20. #120
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    :sigh: Here we go again.

    You are mistaking socialism with communism and mixing it with ideas of Le Corbusier. Now when did I talk about buildings, mankind etc ? I talked about mutual respect, and respect for the human race as a whole, and not only for those who have a job/money/certain religion.
    Did you read my post, or what? I didn't say you mentioned buildings. I have a basic respect for everyone...but there's nothing wrong with respecting someone more for the things they've done, or what they believe in. If I think someone believes in something wrong, I'm gonna respect them less, because I don't agree. I think they've made a mistake. If I meet someone who I know to be moral, and very wealthy, I'm going to grant them another kind of respect...the respect that they deserve for conquering the hardships of life and providing well for themselves and their family, and their family's family as time goes on.

    Now, if you want to expand on what YOU mean by socialism, by all means, go ahead.

    Now that's something terrible you just said. You don't know me, my origins, my upbringing, and the values I defend; and you tell me I would treat a white man differently if I wanted to kill the man ? That's just the very idea I was going against, dude.
    That's almost funny. Right above you complain about people not reading your posts, yet you completely misread what Renegade was saying. You took that quote out of context. Read the bit of text before it:

    ...any US defense attorney will say that you killed him because he was black.

    He was NOT saying he believed it...he was saying that a US attorney can, and likely WOULD, make that argument. Please practice what you preach. The Golden Rule, my friend. And yes, Renegade, you're right: even if it's not a hate crime, if it's a majority harming a minority, they'll likely use that to try to get a harsher judgement...simply because it'll probably work.

    Actually it would be nice if y'all stopped going into that same rhetoric about how hate crimes are not hate crimes etc. Do I have to explain again ? It is just a name for them, get over it even if it's misnamed. Do not ignore the issue just because it's not named appropriately.
    Not named appropriately? Uh, that's a BAD thing. If I started referring to murder as "dancing," you'd tell me to stop it, because it didn't make sense. Yes, that is an extreme example, but the principle is the same. It's a BUZZ word/phrase. It's a race crime...there's absolutely no good reason to call it a hate crime. None. No, you didn't have to explain it again...I understand your point...it just doesn't make sense, so I'm not letting up. It's persistence, not stupidity.

    And for your information TWT, racism is a far bigger issue than child molesting, even if the two are different. You know, not every child is subject to being a victim of child molestors, yet every guy who happens not to be colored the same way the locals are, is subject to being a victim of racism. This is not especially crimes. It's not about fighting, gang beating, raping or killing. It is about guys who think the color of your skin, or your ethnicity, makes you a very different kind of man, or even a sub-man, and entitles you to a different treatment. "...'cause a heart speaks louder than a color can.", to simply quote a song.
    I'm sorry, but if I had to pick one of the two, I would eliminate child molestation. I hope very dearly that you would as well. Racism is something that could potentially happen to every person that's living. Child molestation is something that can potentially happen to every child. Racism, if it happens to someone, may be a major hinderance for some. Child molestation, if it happens, is a completely traumatic experience for ALL who it happens to, basically. I'd rather be called a racial slur than be molested as a child...but that's just me.

    Oh, and I'm not posting in the heat of the moment. I'm speaking my mind, in plain, clear though. This is pretty much how I would talk in real life...rest assured that I am not some quiet, shy nerd on the computer all day who only has these conversations because I don't have to face the other person. To be quite honest with you, I'd much RATHER have these face-to-face. It's a lot harder to dodge questions and points IRL.

    Yes, I dislike that term as well, Dave. Example: if you classify me under the label "Irish/Scottish-American," rather than the giant blanket label "white," then I'm in the minority in this country, too. Apparently though, I'm not different from a Russian-American, or a British-American.

    Let's be honest: things are out of hand. All of a sudden, if you assume that an Asian person is likely to be shorter than a Russian person (which is likely)...then you're bound to have someone shout "racism" at you. A lot of people are not demanding tolerance...their demanding the reverse: minorities with some kind of ultimate power of majorities. Jesse Jackson does not want equality...Jesse Jackson wants the whole thing, as it was 50 years ago, flipped upside down.

    People are BLINDED by racism. All of a sudden everything everyone does is motivated by race. This only fuels the fire, people. Stop assuming that everything is about race. The NFL only has X number of black coaches? They must be racist!

    Anyway, that's what I've got to say.

  21. #121
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    Originally posted by DaveMaxwell

    Racism will continue to exist as long as people insist on placing labels on one another. One of my biggest pet peeves right now is the politically correct "*-american" terms floating around the US. The US does not recognize dual citizenship. You are either an American or you're not. If you were born outside the US and became a naturalized citizen then MAYBE I could accept the term. If you were born in the US, you are an American. Period, end of discussion.
    Beautiful Dave. I have never been in agreement with you this much until now. I won't even say African-American. If anyone feels they must be called a "*-American" instead of an "American" then they can go back to "*" for all I'm concerned, wherever "*" is.
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    In response to the original question: He would have handled the terrorist situation by taking the hypotenuse of an isosceles triangle, divided by 5/2, square it.....

    And in some civilized countries (France, for example), it's illegal and makes you eligible for either a big fine, loss of your electoral rights, or plain behind the bars for a short while.
    Really, France outlaws that? *crosses France off his 'free country' list* Wait, they ban guns too don't they. *crosses it out twice*

    Look if it takes away your basic huiman freedom of speech and expression (which is basic enough that it made our Constitution), then it's socialism.
    Nah, it's just totalitarianism. Socialism is only one branch of that, economic totalitarianism.

    No. But if it's proven the 'appearance' of the victim is the motive of the murder, as it's the case a lot of times, it is worse than another crime.
    WHY? Why is 'appearance' a worse motive than 'greed(of murderer)', or 'personal hatred of victim'? Because Jesse Jackson says so?

  23. #123
    Digital Warrior Renegade's Avatar
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    Shin Ma: Yes, TWT was correct. I was never assuming that you would do that, I was saying that is what any US defense attorney would do. I apologize for any misunderstanding.

    Actually now that I think about it, it didn't even have anything to do with the conversation. I don't know why I even said it. I guess...sometimes I just like to argue

    Thanks for the backup TWT
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