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Thread: Zend Framework

  1. #51
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    Not to hijack the other thread, but does anyone else find it interesting that there are unit tests for ZF, but the preview release has some refactoring bugs in it?

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    SitePoint Addict timvw's Avatar
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    Given the fact that there are so many mature frameworks out there.. I find it very promising that a framework that isn't even ready by far get all this attention...

    Learning new stuff is never a bad thing. The hard part is to recognize things that actually make your work easier. Untill now i don't see a reason to adopt ZF as there are (imho) better packages out there even though they aren't always as nicely integrated as ZF. Currently i see Zend Framework as a very young copy of PEAR.

  3. #53
    simple tester McGruff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akrabat
    Not to hijack the other thread, but does anyone else find it interesting that there are unit tests for ZF, but the preview release has some refactoring bugs in it?
    Interesting in what way? I assume you mean that unit tested code shouldn't have any bugs? Unit testing isn't a guarantee of perfection. You can get closer and closer the more effort you put into the tests but you can't ever get to 100%. It should certainly have many fewer bugs though - depends how well it's done.

    Is there a better way?

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by McGruff
    Interesting in what way?
    Interesting in the sense that if you are refactoring, and your codebase uses unit tests, surely you'd code up some tests to check that the refactor worked?

    Of course, it's possible that the preview has been released with failed tests.

    Quote Originally Posted by McGruff
    Is there a better way?
    Than unit testing? Dunno. I'm still training myself to test every time rather than when I remember

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by McGruff
    I think there will be a lot to discuss and the framework will be bound to evolve once more pairs of eyes get a chance to assess it.
    I agree. This was part of the motivation to release it early instead of waiting until it was more complete and stable. PHP has a very supportive community full of smart people, so getting some criticism early in the development process, and developing the framework in full view of the public will challenge everyone involved to produce a better product.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Livingston
    Where are the unit tests?
    They're in Subversion but didn't get added to the preview release. I think Andi wants the next preview to include them.

    I think this will be great, because it puts the pressure on us to write a better test suite. Nothing like the thought of your peers checking out your test suite to motivate you to improve it. :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by akrabat
    I'm sure that they would appreciate more constructive criticism.
    Very true. :-)

    All criticism is appreciated, but if someone has something important to say, it would really help if it were expressed in a professional manner. It's not that we can't handle harsh criticism, but when trying to distinguish between signal and noise, we're less likely to mistake a valid comment as noise if it is expressed well.

    Quote Originally Posted by akrabat
    Certainly, they are actively responding to comments on the mailing list and the phrase "fixed in SVN" is turning up frequently.
    Yeah, we've been addressing issues as we hear of them. This is just a preview release, and the decision was made to involve the community early. This will result in some harsh criticism, but I think it will help us produce a better framework in the end, and that's what's most important.

    Quote Originally Posted by thr
    I agree on this, but I have to say that it feels quite strange to ship a framework with "just" Table/Row Gateways.
    I completely agree, and I hope to see the Active Record implementation (or some other ORM) return. The current components are nice, but they just simplify what many of us are already doing. I want a solution that isn't bound by the relative primitism of existing solutions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrir2
    The database code really looks like Rails
    The code you refer to is an implementation of the popular Active Record pattern. It is not unique to Rails, and the similarity is due to the fact that Rails implements the same pattern.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorccu
    They have messed up some method names.
    The one you mention has been fixed in Subversion already. Can you point out the others? I assume you intentionally use a plural there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorccu
    What is isReadable() doing in Zend?
    This question is too vague to answer properly, but I'll try. It's in Zend, because that's where methods that might be usable by more than one component are kept. It exists to circumvent a design decision in PHP to make the is_readable() function not search include_path.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorccu
    Nearly every method in the Filter class, for example isDate, isAlnum, isAlpha etc, returns the given value if it is valid, false otherwise.
    Every method behaves this way, not "nearly every" as you suggest. We've designed these methods to conform to a consistent behavior and strict naming convention.

    The bugs you mention in isDate(), isBetween(), isInt(), and isFloat() have already been fixed in Subversion. Please let us know if you find any others, and thanks very much for the feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edman
    I fail to see anything really new, revolutionary, different, or even interesting here that would make a professional even consider this.
    If you truly didn't think any professionals would consider it, would you really feel the need to make such a baseless comment against it?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1PhpNut
    No big hype with our project, we let it speak for itself.
    Are you suggesting that Zend is hyping the framework? Zend hasn't announced it or even acknowledged it in any official capacity except in combination with the announcement of the Collaboration Project at their conference in October. You still won't find a link to it or mention of it on their web site.

    The hype is a result of the community's genuine excitement, and I see no reason to demean that.

    Quote Originally Posted by akrabat
    Not to hijack the other thread, but does anyone else find it interesting that there are unit tests for ZF, but the preview release has some refactoring bugs in it?
    The test suite is still very immature, so this is not surprising.

    Thanks again for all of the feedback!
    Chris Shiflett
    http://shiflett.org/

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiflett
    Are you suggesting that Zend is hyping the framework?
    Whoa calm down, did not mention Zend at all in my comment. I was just saying that our project has been going strong without a lot of press and things like that. And another languages framework was said to have had a lot of hype behind it.

    If anything I think people who make comments about CakePHP without knowing the project, or what and who is behind it, are the ones who demean our project.

    Everyone who has used CakePHP has nothing but great things to say about it, and for anyone here who claims otherwise, please let us know why you think it is not a viable framework for PHP?
    /**
    * @author Larry E. Masters aka PhpNut
    * @url CakePHP Rapid Development Framework
    */

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1PhpNut
    Whoa calm down, did not mention Zend at all in my comment.
    I'm always calm. :-) I posed the question to give you a chance to clarify. Your comment could be intepreted as derogatory.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1PhpNut
    If anything I think people who make comments about CakePHP without knowing the project, or what and who is behind it, are the ones who demean our project.
    I understand the frustration. I've always been a bit frustrated by the fact that the things I do to help people are the ones most criticized. I've also found that the more helpful I am, the more "attention" I get, and that attracts a different type of criticism (and some jealousy). It's unfortunate, but I don't know how to avoid it aside from keeping to myself.

    I think you'll find the same thing with your project. The more useful it is, the more popular it will get, and the more criticism it will receive. It's a weird case where the less criticism something receives, the less useful it is.

    Bjarne Stroustrup summarized this phenomenon by claiming there are two types of programming languages - the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses. I think this applies to more than programming languages. :-)
    Chris Shiflett
    http://shiflett.org/

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Livingston
    What is new and revolutionary about the Zend Framework is that one of it's core adjectives is colaboration from within the community
    That's a pretty funny word substitution, given Zend's claims of community involvement!
    Zealotry is contingent upon 100 posts and addiction 200?

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiflett
    Bjarne Stroustrup summarized this phenomenon by claiming there are two types of programming languages - the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses. I think this applies to more than programming languages. :-)
    Could not agree more...

    Anyone is welcome to stop by our IRC channel that always has people willing to help. Which 20 hrs of the day you will likely find me on the channel, if not, someone else is always there to provide help.

    #cakephp at irc.freenode.net
    /**
    * @author Larry E. Masters aka PhpNut
    * @url CakePHP Rapid Development Framework
    */

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    Bjarne Stroustrup summarized this phenomenon by claiming there are two types of programming languages - the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses. I think this applies to more than programming languages. :-)
    The operating system that people uses is Windows XP. The browser that people uses is Internet Explorer. Does that mean that they are the best solutions out there ?

    Staying with the mainstream gives some feeling of security. But it's just a feeling, not a fact.

    When Zend talks it is shouting compared to cake's whispering, but it does not make sure that what is being said is automatically better or more true.

    Smarty was "offically" supported. With some good names. Is Smarty parts of the Zend framework ?

    Personally:

    I do use cakephp. It is good. I love it. I am tasting it with a CMS called Ocean CMS developed on top of it. It is excellent.

    I am tired of learning a new technology, be goot at it, and have to thow it complety to learn the next one. For instance I learned HTML around year 2000. I was able to make cross-browser compatible pixel exact table design. And then ? Just throw it 2 years later and learn CSS strict design + tons of dirty hacks to get running on IE ? And then ? rechange it again now that we can develop for modern browsers only ?


    I quite appreciate certain thing to be smooth. I love to get good results with no-to-much work. I love a good community with not too much bla bla and a clear direction. That is some of the reasons why I have choosen Cake. Cake is also php 4. Cake is very consistently structured. I am happy to use it. I use my own mind to juge it. I feel secure. No need of big name to feel secure. Does "Microsoft" inspire anybody here "feeling of security" ? Its a big name though.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by dragoo
    The operating system that people uses is Windows XP. The browser that people uses is Internet Explorer. Does that mean that they are the best solutions out there?
    Are you trying to assert that the opposite is true? I'll err on the side of caution and assume not, because that is one of the most basic logical fallacies. Popularity and quality are orthogonal.
    Chris Shiflett
    http://shiflett.org/

  12. #62
    SitePoint Guru LinhGB's Avatar
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    Most of it look like they picked some good PEAR classes and renamed them. Looks promising though, but they really need to get a stable version out asap.
    "I disapprove of what I say,
    but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

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    Are you trying to assert that the opposite is true? I'll err on the side of caution and assume not, because that is one of the most basic logical fallacies. Popularity and quality are orthogonal.
    Well. Actually yes. popularity and quality are not orthogonal. It is a "S" curve.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations

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    Demo bugs are fixed?!
    Cool! I found a google group but nobody there except the organiger.
    http://groups.google.com/group/Zend-Framework

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    Quote Originally Posted by shiflett
    The one you mention has been fixed in Subversion already. Can you point out the others? I assume you intentionally use a plural there.
    Well, in Mail/Transport/Smtp you have mail_from() and rcpt_to(). I understand that they're trying to mimic the actual commands, but in my opinion they shouldn't have done that. Come on, why vrfy()? What's wrong with verify()?
    Also, some of the names are just bad. For example, what does Zend_Filter::getLength() do? Does it return the length of the string? Let's see..
    PHP Code:
        /**
         * Returns first $length characters of value.
         *
         * @param mixed $value
         * @param int $length
         * @return mixed
         */
        
    public static function getLength($value$length NULL)
        {
            return 
    substr($value0$length);
        } 
    Quote Originally Posted by shiflett
    Every method behaves this way, not "nearly every" as you suggest. We've designed these methods to conform to a consistent behavior and strict naming convention.
    Well I am sorry, but I fail to see how isBetween could ever return anything but a boolean.
    PHP Code:
        /**
         * Returns value if it is greater than or equal to $min and less
         * than or equal to $max, FALSE otherwise. If $inc is set to
         * FALSE, then the value must be strictly greater than $min and
         * strictly less than $max.
         *
         * @param mixed $key
         * @param mixed $min
         * @param mixed $max
         * @param boolean $inclusive
         * @return mixed
         */
        
    public static function isBetween($value$min NULL$max NULL$inc TRUE)
        {
            if (
    $value $min &&
                
    $value $max) {
                return 
    TRUE;
            }

            if (
    $value >= $min &&
                
    $value <= $max &&
                
    $inc) {
                return 
    TRUE;
            }

            return 
    FALSE;
        } 
    The docblock states otherwise so I guess that this is just a mistake.

  16. #66
    SitePoint Evangelist djdykes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edman
    Can't see it being worthwile to someone who's already a professional developer, at least not at this stage.
    i think it maybe one of those things that the newbie may look into to get a quick handle on making PHP pages...

    Myself, i'm gonna wait until it goes v1 personally i'm still stuck in the dark ages on PHP4 tho.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by dragoo
    I am tired of learning a new technology, be goot at it, and have to thow it complety to learn the next one.
    You might be in the wrong industry... Expect and embrace change!

    *grin*

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    Quote Originally Posted by dragoo
    Well. Actually yes. popularity and quality are not orthogonal. It is a "S" curve.
    We should probably discuss this elsewhere if you want to continue, but your link doesn't support your theory. It shows that adoption rates fit an S curve. It makes sense that this trend would not follow a bell curve, because people that adopt a new technology don't often go back.

    This proves nothing about quality or the lack thereof. My point is that while popularity doesn't guarantee quality, it also doesn't guarantee a lack of quality.

    Quote Originally Posted by lynncau
    Demo bugs are fixed?
    Many bugs have been fixed, yes, but I wouldn't dare say that they've all been fixed. :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorccu
    Well, in Mail/Transport/Smtp you have mail_from() and rcpt_to(). I understand that they're trying to mimic the actual commands, but in my opinion they shouldn't have done that. Come on, why vrfy()? What's wrong with verify()?
    I agree - I hate cryptic names. I'll take a look later today. Thanks for pointing this out, and please continue to mention anything that looks suspicious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorccu
    For example, what does Zend_Filter::getLength() do?
    You can blame me for this one. In isolation, it sounds like an equivalent of strlen(), and I think that's your concern, right? A possible rename is getChars(), and another possibility is to drop it entirely. The reason I'm considering dropping it entirely is that it can be easily used to obtain raw data in a less suspicious way than getRaw(), and it's not terribly useful anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorccu
    The docblock states otherwise so I guess that this is just a mistake.
    Yep, thanks for pointing it out.

    We're most likely going to change this behavior so that all "is" methods return strictly TRUE or FALSE, and these will only be available in Zend_Filter (not Zend_InputFilter). The current behavior will be kept for Zend_InputFilter, but we'll modify the naming convention to make the distinction clear.

    Thanks again for the feedback. I appreciate it.
    Chris Shiflett
    http://shiflett.org/

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    You might be in the wrong industry... Expect and embrace change!
    There is a question of efficiency, though. I think that somebody adopting every new trendy technology is not efficient. I think I expect and (try to) embrace change. But I do not follow every time some peoples get excited.

    IMHO its different to be a technologist and a fashion-victim. I think its possible to be consistent over time.

    To sum up :

    Quality != Fame
    Trend != Change
    BigName != Security

  20. #70
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    > My point is that while popularity doesn't guarantee quality,



    That's the view point I have at the moment in regards to Ruby and Ruby on Rails...

  21. #71
    SitePoint Guru thr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Livingston
    That's the view point I have at the moment in regards to Ruby and Ruby on Rails...

  22. #72
    SitePoint Guru silver trophy Luke Redpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Livingston
    That's the view point I have at the moment in regards to Ruby and Ruby on Rails...
    But have you even sat down and used it properly? Because I'm yet to see any evidence in any of your Ruby/Rails-bashing posts that you have. You are right that popularity doesn't equal quality, for sure, but Rails has quality in shedloads. I fail to see what more you could want in a great web framework*. Easy to use controller/routing, a great ORM solution, easy (and extensible) templating, good AJAX integration if you want/need it, a good library of helper functionality, unit and functional/acceptance testing baked right in and actively encouraged and all backed up by comprehensive unit tests.

    Certainly, the announcement of the Zend framework will be doing nothing to pull me back to PHP. Using PHP after working for Ruby for nearly a year would be like pulling teeth (as I found having recently had to go back to a PHP project we've been working on for a while).

    The irony is that whilst you continue to bash it without really knowing about it, I reckon if you actually opened your mind and sat down and used it properly for a while, you wouldn't want to go back to PHP either.

    * not that I'm saying Rails or Ruby is perfect, because neither are, and nothing ever is. But they both continue to improve.

  23. #73
    SitePoint Wizard Ren's Avatar
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    Whilst I havent used Ruby on Rails that much, mainly cos it such a pain to get working with on Win32/IIS. Also have yet to see any big sites use it, apart from I presume 37signals suite of web applications, but...

    http://www.37signals.com/?=PHPE9568F...9-00AA001ACF42

    Looked at the code thou, and the frontcontroller/routing appears (from my rudimentary knowledge of ruby) to first generate code for the routing and then executes it. So there is double "compliation" happening? much like using eval() or create_function() in PHP. Which doesn't seem good.

  24. #74
    SitePoint Guru thr's Avatar
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    haha that one had me laughing for while

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    I mentioned above that we let our framework speak for itself, here is an example.

    USWeb Blog entry
    /**
    * @author Larry E. Masters aka PhpNut
    * @url CakePHP Rapid Development Framework
    */


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