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  1. #101
    Commander Awesome DevonWright's Avatar
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    does IE7 load into IEtab? Just curious. I'm not brave enough to install it onto my work compy and check to find out.
    Ultimate X:
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  2. #102
    SitePoint Evangelist Worldbuilder's Avatar
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    Could I ask why Windows XP sets ClearType to Off by default? Seems to me that it's much better. At least, I like it better.

    Chris

  3. #103
    SitePoint Addict Dzi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by earther
    I guess you aren't a designer . . .
    did You saw IE7?


    I'm webmaster and I work with all browsers.
    Something what works (looks) well in IE my not look well in Firefox or Opera. But what works in Firefox and Opera is mostly to look well in IE.
    So on the other hand IE's "bad" engine has some good sides.
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  4. #104
    Employed Again Viflux's Avatar
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    I think a lot of people are totally jumping the gun here.

    First, it's a beta release. It's a vast improvement over earlier leaked versions of "beta 2", which was in turn a vast improvement over the first beta. To expect all the bugs to be worked out by now is ridiculous, it also demeans the point of a beta release. I'm sure Microsoft is loving what's going on right now. Problems are being found, and I'm sure they're taking note.

    Second, let's not forget why IE7 is being release. It isn't to appease the boisterous developer community. It's to calm the public concerns over the security problems with earlier versions. Personally, I consider *any* fixes to the rendering engine to be a plus.

    I don't use Internet Explorer at all. I'm strictly Firefox, and don't foresee that changing. I would, however, like to remind people that this is just a beta release. No need to gather the masses and light the torches just yet.

    Also, I would again like to reiterate my disappointment with no clear warning (yes, it's in the release notes...but who reads those?) about it effectively removing IE6 off your machine. We code exclusively for IE6 at work, and as such it is essential to my job. I foolishly installed IE7 yesterday to have a peek. At least a removal was quick, easy, and painless.

  5. #105
    SitePoint Addict Dzi's Avatar
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    If we are going to talk about security, my expirience with IE 7 beta on this field is great. In last 3-4 months I almost had just few minor problems with viruses and other malicious software. Before IE 7 i ws using Firefox. It was tri times better than IE6 but, i must tell that IE7 is much safer at this moment...
    DOWNLOAD.HR - Windows Download Portal

  6. #106
    SitePoint Wizard drhowarddrfine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzi
    I don't see in which way IE is eight years behind the standards?!
    Did you click on the link using IE?

  7. #107
    SitePoint Wizard drhowarddrfine's Avatar
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    It was tri times better than IE6 but, i must tell that IE7 is much safer at this moment...
    While the whole security community disagrees with you.

  8. #108
    SitePoint Guru LinhGB's Avatar
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    I must say that I've never used any beta browser that is this bad. I've tried Opera beta, Firefox beta, Safari beta... never have I seen so many issues discovered almost instantly after release! Is this all they can do with their truckload of $$$?
    "I disapprove of what I say,
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  9. #109
    SitePoint Wizard drhowarddrfine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LinhGB
    I must say that I've never used any beta browser that is this bad. I've tried Opera beta, Firefox beta, Safari beta... never have I seen so many issues discovered almost instantly after release! Is this all they can do with their truckload of $$$?
    That's a very good point. Most betas you see nowadays generally work very well, yet, all over cnet and zdnet and some of the other forums I visit are nothing but complaints and developers uninstalling it.

  10. #110
    100% Windoze-free earther's Avatar
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    IE7 breaks Juno

    Dear Juno Member,

    Microsoft has recently launched a new "test" version of the Internet Explorer browser (also known as IE 7). Although we are working to support the final release version of IE 7 when it becomes available, THIS TEST VERSION WILL NOT WORK WITH YOUR EXISTING JUNO SERVICE.

    We recommend that you do not download or install IE 7 on your machine at this time as it may create issues with your Juno software, and could impact your ability to get online.

    If you have already installed IE 7 and are experiencing issues with your Juno software, you may wish to uninstall IE 7 and reinstall an earlier version of IE. If you need additional instructions on how to reinstall IE, please reply to this email.

    Juno is hard at work to develop new software that is compatible with all the latest Microsoft products, including IE 7, and we will inform you when new Juno software is available. Thank you for your patience.

    Sincerely,

    Juno Member Services

  11. #111
    SitePoint Addict Dzi's Avatar
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    @drhowarddrfine 1
    Yes i did. Like I said, in most cases it will be that famous "but it worked in IE"

    @drhowarddrfine 2
    Than whole security community is in ***. I use all tri (IE,Firefox,Opera) browser simuntanly and after thri months I can say which is safer on the web.
    PS1: we are talking about IE7 not IE6
    PS2: As I remember Symantec said that IE (IE6) is much better in security than version of Firefox that was aviable in that time.
    You forget that in security of web browsers the main problem is in their popularity.
    DOWNLOAD.HR - Windows Download Portal

  12. #112
    SitePoint Wizard drhowarddrfine's Avatar
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    You forget that in security of web browsers the main problem is in their popularity.
    Then that contradicts what you said about IE being more secure. No, I don't remember Symantec saying that and it's not true.

  13. #113
    Non-Member lostseed's Avatar
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    You guys keep going back and forth, I think the most important issue here is: Does Internet Explorer 7 Beta make CSS Dotted borders appear as Dotted and no longer Dashed?

    Thats the big mystery to me. Yes I am too lazy to download it and find out!

  14. #114
    SitePoint Addict Dzi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drhowarddrfine
    Then that contradicts what you said about IE being more secure. No, I don't remember Symantec saying that and it's not true.
    They said that in their relise few months ago.
    And basicly that is thrue. IE with over 80% users has less discovered mistakes than Firefox with less than 10% users. Is that saying something?

    The bigest problem of IE is that it is to popular, and every smart hacker will try to attackt IE users rether than Firefox or Opera users. I wonder why?
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  15. #115
    SitePoint Guru LinhGB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzi
    The bigest problem of IE is that it is to popular, and every smart hacker will try to attackt IE users rether than Firefox or Opera users. I wonder why?
    No, the biggest problem with it is that it's too integrated with the OS (very unnecessarily) and if it's f'ed then your whole OS goes down with it. The second biggest problem with it is that MS seems to have about 2 graduates who are paid slave wages to work on it, and testing and bug fixing are considered optional (seeing that it took them 4 years to fix problems with IE6 that everyone found out ages ago, probably introducing new ones at the same time). The third biggest problem is that Microsoft (<flaming will not be tolerated>) treats its security problems as a PR matter, not a technical one.
    Last edited by stymiee; Feb 3, 2006 at 07:49.
    "I disapprove of what I say,
    but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

  16. #116
    SitePoint Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostseed
    Does Internet Explorer 7 Beta make CSS Dotted borders appear as Dotted and no longer Dashed?
    EXACTLY. Someone please fill us in. Why the hell has it taken Microsoft so long to fix such a ridiculous rendering bug!??

  17. #117
    SitePoint Wizard drhowarddrfine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzi
    They said that in their relise few months ago.
    And basicly that is thrue. IE with over 80% users has less discovered mistakes than Firefox with less than 10% users. Is that saying something?
    I read this somewhere else but it could have been about Symantec, however the article showed how the claim is not true. I'll have to find it.

  18. #118
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LinhGB
    No, the biggest problem with it is that it's too integrated with the OS (very unnecessarily) and if it's f'ed then your whole OS goes down with it. The second biggest problem with it is that MS seems to have about 2 graduates who are paid slave wages to work on it, and testing and bug fixing are considered optional (seeing that it took them 4 years to fix problems with IE6 that everyone found out ages ago, probably introducing new ones at the same time). The third biggest problem is that Microsoft (<flaming will not be tolerated>) treats its security problems as a PR matter, not a technical one.
    IE7 isn't integrated into the shell anymore.

    The rest is just your personal opinion. I've seen the IE team release new versions of the browser every year. I've seen issues fixed on IE faster than on FF, and vice versa.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  19. #119
    SitePoint Wizard drhowarddrfine's Avatar
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    IE7 isn't integrated into the shell anymore.
    Yes it is. On the IEBlog you will see Wilson state they have trouble fixing and upgrading IE7 because of the integration in the OS.

    From the IEBlog:
    As Chris Wilson pointed out, "'IE' is actually a collection of system components - networking, browser hosting, core HTML rendering, printing, etc. When we install a new version of IE, we're installing it for all applications that use these system components
    I've seen the IE team release new versions of the browser every year. I've seen issues fixed on IE faster than on FF, and vice versa.
    Name one. When there was a lot of hullabaloo about the long text bug in FF late last year, the Mozilla team had a fix within eight hours even though they determined it to be low priority.

  20. #120
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    No. It isn't integrated into the SHELL. Of course they aren't going to rework components. Nobody does that. For good reason. Why write 25 HTML rendering engines? Why write 20 TCP/IP stacks. The reason IE was previously bad was:

    1. It ran as part of the shell
    2. It ran as a full local user

    Both of these are now dealt with. This is why IE7 IS more secure than IE6. As a browser, its independence puts it on the same footing as FireFox. Issues will still happen, exploits will still be found. In both products. But, it is no longer part of the shell.

    As far as FireFox vulnerabilities, it only took me searching secunia.com for "FireFox" to find at least 2: http://secunia.com/product/4227/. I'm sure if I poured through Bugzilla I'd find even more.

    Let's put it this way, say it takes the FireFox team 3 days to correct an issue. Now, IE needs to be tested in more than 15,000 ways, to ensure a fix doesn't break something else. This isnt' so much because of shell integration as it is because of the more than 300 platforms IE is used on. What is "reasonable" to expect Microsoft to fix those issues in? They have about 200 devs on the team, so say each dev could test 20 issues per day, after the fix is done, you're still looking at about 12 days.

    Ironically, that's also the average time to market of an emergency IE fix. However for generic stuff, it all gets patched in the monthly patch cycle, which is a Good Thing.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  21. #121
    SitePoint Evangelist Will Kelly's Avatar
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    Testing an e-commerce app I'm building I was impressed with the warning it gave for an invalid certificate (I test on a live staging site with a different domain name, so the security certificate is invalid.). Rather than the 'two ticks and a warning icon' on IE6 it stopped the form submission and quite clearly told you something was wrong. Much more security conscious (though I imagine a very easy change).

    Oh and it still has the dashed border rendering problem and it looks really ugly!

    however it did make me discover ClearType which is almost as good as the text rendering on OSX!

  22. #122
    Super Ninja Monkey Travis's Avatar
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    Jeremy: Do you mean it's not integrated and doesn't run as full local user in Vista or in XP?
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  23. #123
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis
    Jeremy: Do you mean it's not integrated and doesn't run as full local user in Vista or in XP?
    It no longer ran as local user after XP SP2. It's even more separate in IE7. And in Vista it will be a modal unit. Effectively totally separate (though there will still be interconnects for obvious reasons).
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  24. #124
    SitePoint Wizard drhowarddrfine's Avatar
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    It isn't integrated into the SHELL.
    Won't argue with you because I don't know but we were talking about the OS, not the shell. Plus, IE is part of, or works hand in hand with, Windows Explorer. I don't know that you can say IE7 will be like Firefox when one works hand in hand with the other including OS component usage while FF does none of that.

    As far as FireFox vulnerabilities, it only took me searching secunia.com for "FireFox" to find at least 2
    Now search for IE vulnerabilities and let me know how many and how long that takes.

    because of the more than 300 platforms IE is used on.
    Say what? We're talking Intel, period. There is a hardware specification MS created and they test to and hardware manufacturers design to. MS does not test on each manufacturers individual platform.

    say it takes the FireFox team 3 days to correct an issue.
    Microsoft to fix those issues...after the fix is done, you're still looking at about 12 days.
    Like I said, advantage Firefox. Fixes come quicker than IE every time.

    Effectively totally separate (though there will still be interconnects for obvious reasons).
    So it won't be totally seperate. If it needs OS system components to run then it is integrated into the OS, period.

  25. #125
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    *sigh*

    You're being argumentative when you admittedly don't know what you're talking about. Intel isn't the only platform IE runs on. WinCE also runs on Palm. XP Embedded runs on more than 1200 different hardware platforms. SmartPhone runs on dozens of different mobile platforms. And EN runs on dozens of different mainframe platforms.

    As far as FireFox, my point was that there are still vulnerabilities that are 6 months plus months old. You said they always fix vulnerabilities and bugs faster. Which obviously isn't true. I merely said I'd seen issues fixed faster on IE than FF and vice versa. The Time to Fix ratio is actually fairly similar, when you take into account MS's monthly patch cycle.

    There ARE issues where MS has clearly missed the boat with security fixes, specifically for IE, but overall both teams do very, very well in responding to security issues.

    As far as effectively vs totally. Again, not an argument you can have, since you don't know the specifics. I'll stand by the "they are separate in Vista" stance, and I'll stand by the fact that it is no longer integrated in the way most bashers seem to think it is, since the core point whoever (way back when) made was that a vulnerability in IE meant a vulnerability in the OS. Which is simply no longer the case.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
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