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    Keeping Clients Domain Name, Possible?

    Hello,

    Can the designers who have contracts or know a bit about law, tell me about how the wording might go into a contract for this.

    What I'm thinking here is some form of way to protect the payment for the job being done. Say you create a site and the client owes money, how can you word the contract, so the *new* domain name can stay with the designer until payment is made in full? Also, lets say the client has a site they want to have redesigned...there should be a way to word the contract and have the client sign it saying they give right to transfer domain name until job is complete...or something like that.


    Looking forward to hearing back,


    BK

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    BK,

    If you're helping a new client get a new domain name and website together there's nothing preventing you from registering the domain in the clients name, and then transfering ownership to them once you've been fully paid for your work. If they already have a domain however, that's another story and I don't think there's any chance a contract like that would be enforceable - nor would anyone probably sign a contract like that.

    Another way to protect your interests would be to host your clients site on your server so you could remove the site if you had payment issues - but I think the best way to operate is to...

    1) Choose your clients carefully.
    2) Be sure you have a good contract in place
    3) Get some percentage of the job upfront and other portions of the payment as you complete the site. I require 50% upfront and 50% on completion.

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    Intoxicated with the madness petertdavis's Avatar
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    Holding a domain name ransom doesn't sound like a good way to build client relations. You may also find yourself on the wrong side of trademark laws.
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    I agree with Peter to a certain extent. However, in my contract under the ownership clause I explicitly state that ALL matrrials, fonts, domain, photos, and the site itself are owned by us until final payment is made, at which point they will be transferred.

    I don't do this so I can "hold the domain name for ransom" but just to protect the investment we have in the project. We invest our time, money and resources into developing a project and none of it is the client's until they have paid in full and completed the project.

    The client knows this up front, and I tell them I have no intent of ever keeping their domain name or website... As long as they pay the remaining balance everything is theirs! We also tell all our clients they are more than welcome to register their own domain name, or host the site themselves.

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    SitePoint Zealot chihpih's Avatar
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    Good stuff Beley, do you have a clause in your contracts that describe the procedures if a client files a chargeback (if paying by CC or paypal) in the future?
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    Yes, I have a separate form for clients to fill out and sign if paying by credit card. I had John Conde look at it and he spoke with Visa/MC and verified it would hold up against a chargeback.

    The form has a place for the amount of the charge and a description of services. It has terms stating that the client hereby acknowledges that the charges are accurate and they authorize them. It also states that they will not issue a chargeback, and if they do they understand that we will take all legal measures to recover the money - and they are responsible for any and all collection efforts, court or attorney fees, etc.

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    SitePoint Zealot ricktu's Avatar
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    I was recently hunting down information for rewriting my contracts and I came across a this site. It dealt with just this situation.

    What it boils down to is that even if you initially purchase the domain for the client technically you don't own it. It belongs to whomever it was originally intended for.

    Here's the link to the relevant page.

    http://www.ivanhoffman.com/leverage.html

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    That article assumes two things... that the domain was registered and put into the clients name initially, and that they actually had legal trademark claims to the name (which is rarely the case).

    Also, if there was a clear contract that stated they did not own the domain until the project was paid in full, I doubt there would have been much of a case.

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    Hello Everyone,

    Thanks for the good info. As for if the clinet already owns the domain, would it be possible to have written in the contract that the clients transfers their rights to ownership of said domain, to XYZ until job is completed. Would somthing like this work, maybe if it was written a different way.

    There has to be a way to handle something like this, otherwise you (the Designer) have no real way to protect yourself.



    Thanks for the help,

    BK

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    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    I would spend time working to find better clients as opposed to figuring out how to avoid non-payers, etc.

    People keep wanting to fight these battles, but I say: build your portfoio, get better and better, find better clients, raise prices and climb the ladder. Why duke it out as a bottom feeder?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FST2003
    Hello Everyone,

    Thanks for the good info. As for if the clinet already owns the domain, would it be possible to have written in the contract that the clients transfers their rights to ownership of said domain, to XYZ until job is completed. Would somthing like this work, maybe if it was written a different way.

    There has to be a way to handle something like this, otherwise you (the Designer) have no real way to protect yourself.
    How would hijacking a domain they already own protect you, the designer? I agree that if you register the domain name on their behalf, you should be able to keep it under your control until the project is complete. I wouldn't think of trying to take ownership of a domain they purchased.

    No client in their right mind would sign such an agreement.

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    Hello again,

    First I would like to ask why Beley is going out of his way to either make me look bad or etc...Beley?

    Its not a matter of wasting time with non-payers...its a matter of protecting your business and yourself. You could be the BEST designer in your state and all you need is one 'so-called better client' to come around and put you out of business because you failed to plan.

    Take Donald Trump...I'm sure when he first came to AC they thought he was a great client but all it took was him to file chapter 11 and say good-bye to your great client.

    To address Beley...you/he wrote above 'in my contract under the ownership clause I explicitly state that ALL materials, fonts, domain, photos, and the site itself are owned by us until final payment is made, at which point they will be transferred.'

    You also said 'I wouldn't think of trying to take ownership of a domain they purchased.' So what if a client is willing to pay you only for the domain. You would have no problem handing it over and letting them owe you for the balance. I mean if they are willing to give you the cash, then by rights 'they purchased it'

    Your trying to make it seem like I want my clients domain, when we all know the only reason I asked this was to protect payment for the job. You have no problem holding their domain, until they pay you. Just because you paid for the domain doesn't mean your not hijacking it.

    I don't think you want to own their domain name, but you have the clause in your contract to help give you a little leverage in getting paid. The reason you have that in your contract is the same and only reason why I thought it might be a good idea...that's all...so get off my back.


    BK

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    Quote Originally Posted by FST2003
    Hello again,

    First I would like to ask why Beley is going out of his way to either make me look bad or etc...Beley?
    No way, you do that all on your own pal.

    Its not a matter of wasting time with non-payers...its a matter of protecting your business and yourself. You could be the BEST designer in your state and all you need is one 'so-called better client' to come around and put you out of business because you failed to plan.
    How is taking their domain name in any way protecting your business? The only way I can think is to use it as blackmail. BTW, as pointed out in other parts of this thread, there may be some serious legal issues with trademarked names as well.

    To address Beley...you/he wrote above 'in my contract under the ownership clause I explicitly state that ALL materials, fonts, domain, photos, and the site itself are owned by us until final payment is made, at which point they will be transferred.'

    You also said 'I wouldn't think of trying to take ownership of a domain they purchased.' So what if a client is willing to pay you only for the domain. You would have no problem handing it over and letting them owe you for the balance. I mean if they are willing to give you the cash, then by rights 'they purchased it'

    Your trying to make it seem like I want my clients domain, when we all know the only reason I asked this was to protect payment for the job. You have no problem holding their domain, until they pay you. Just because you paid for the domain doesn't mean your not hijacking it.

    I don't think you want to own their domain name, but you have the clause in your contract to help give you a little leverage in getting paid. The reason you have that in your contract is the same and only reason why I thought it might be a good idea...that's all...so get off my back.


    BK
    No, the clause in my contract, which I just paraphrased here, related to materials we purchased for the project. Until the project is paid, those materials are ours because we purchased them.

    I would never expect or try to get a client to hand over their domain name that they already purchased. That would not offer us any protection, and is unethical.

    The only reason I have the clause in my contract is because we want to make sure that we retain ownership of all assets, design and code until the project is complete. Upon completion anything we purchased on their behalf becomes theirs. They own it outright.

    However, even if we DID purchase a domain name for a client, and they decided to cancel the project (it has happened before) or postpone it for some reason, I would not keep the domain. As long as they pay us for the domain, we would be more than happy to surrender it to them.

    Hijacking someone's domain so you can blackmale them with it is unethical, and borderline illegal. I resent the fact that you consistently try to turn these discussions around on me when it's clear you have no principles or ethics to speak of.

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    SitePoint Addict shaxs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FST2003
    Hello again,

    First I would like to ask why Beley is going out of his way to either make me look bad or etc...Beley?

    Its not a matter of wasting time with non-payers...its a matter of protecting your business and yourself. You could be the BEST designer in your state and all you need is one 'so-called better client' to come around and put you out of business because you failed to plan.

    Take Donald Trump...I'm sure when he first came to AC they thought he was a great client but all it took was him to file chapter 11 and say good-bye to your great client.

    To address Beley...you/he wrote above 'in my contract under the ownership clause I explicitly state that ALL materials, fonts, domain, photos, and the site itself are owned by us until final payment is made, at which point they will be transferred.'

    You also said 'I wouldn't think of trying to take ownership of a domain they purchased.' So what if a client is willing to pay you only for the domain. You would have no problem handing it over and letting them owe you for the balance. I mean if they are willing to give you the cash, then by rights 'they purchased it'

    Your trying to make it seem like I want my clients domain, when we all know the only reason I asked this was to protect payment for the job. You have no problem holding their domain, until they pay you. Just because you paid for the domain doesn't mean your not hijacking it.

    I don't think you want to own their domain name, but you have the clause in your contract to help give you a little leverage in getting paid. The reason you have that in your contract is the same and only reason why I thought it might be a good idea...that's all...so get off my back.


    BK
    Holy crap, calm down. He isn't attacking you; he is making a good observation. You should deal with people you feel wont screw you. That doesn't mean do not be preparred. But, having a clause holding a domain from a client, is only okay if it is registered in it your name. I work at one of the largest registrars in the world (#12 or so), and if the domain has a legal owner as your client, your screwed. Even if the domain is in your account, if a legal owner faxes a picture ID to us and request we put this in a domain, we will. Legal owner trumps the admin contact. In order to change legal owner you have to go through a decent amount of paper work, which I think is necesarry to protect the legal owner. Thats why I think goDaddy's relaxed policy to change legal owner is a bad idea. Anyways, I believe the only way you can have a clause like that is if you register the domain in your own name. If that was the case, you will remain the legal owner even if your client comes begging. The only time we will relinquish a domain without the legal owner's consent is with a court or WIPO order to do so.

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    Take it easy there BK. Nobody's trying to make you look bad and Beley is one of the smartest guys I know around here so you could learn a lot from him if you'll listen to the advice he freely shares.

    I for one agree with his comment that "no client would sign such an agreement" and can assure you I'd never sign such an agreement - would you?

    If you're that concerned about getting stiffed maybe you should carefully hand pick your clients and/or require full payment up front? Sure, there are some folks that might take advantage of you in the business world, but treating them all like crooks will only see to it that you attract more people like that to your business.
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    Sorry 'PAL' but your the one who is making a double standard.

    First...Beley do me a favor and stop twisting words around. I find it funny that here you are supposed to be the professional and help guide the users who are new starting out...but yet you have no problem throwing insulting comments around.

    Second when I said about protecting, I was speaking about wording a contract the correct way to help protect your business from default customers.

    Then you try and say that Im flipping these discussions around on what you say...but again your the one who is taking words and twisting them around. You throw the word blackmail around, which is very childish. You make it seem like, I want to find clients just for the reason to steal money from them...any normal person reading what I wrote, would understand that I only want to get paid for completing a job...and not have to chase a client for payment they owe.

    This part is truly very funny...you said 'The only reason I have the clause in my contract is because we want to make sure that we retain ownership of all assets, design and code until the project is complete'...Umm...what the hell do you mean by the 'only reason'...Umm...That is the reason...what other reason is there? YOU have this clause to make sure you are paid for your work. And to be honest, this clause is perfectly ok...but why do YOU feel the need to make it seem like you have...'The only reason'.

    It clearly shows that you will try your hardest to make yourself look right by not telling it...like it is...you said, 'until the project is complete' means the same as 'now that you have been paid'...lets try and keep it simple.


    ** Ravedesigns, and the other who have left good advice...I want to thank you. Rave I understand what you are saying and would love to be able to take some of the advice from Beley...but let me ask you this...why did you choose the high road and not pick on me, or try to call me a bad person?

    You posted to this thread and still acted very professional. But I'm sure beley defense will be...that he tells the truth and calls it like he see's it, right. Think about it...instead of jumping on the band wagon and start to flame me...rave and a handful of other users here decide to not assume I had wrong intention...but understood I was new and just learning how it all works.


    Sorry for such a long post...I hope some of you will try and understand.



    BK :'(

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    Quote Originally Posted by FST2003
    This part is truly very funny...you said 'The only reason I have the clause in my contract is because we want to make sure that we retain ownership of all assets, design and code until the project is complete'...Umm...what the hell do you mean by the 'only reason'...Umm...That is the reason...what other reason is there? YOU have this clause to make sure you are paid for your work. And to be honest, this clause is perfectly ok...but why do YOU feel the need to make it seem like you have...'The only reason'.
    You make me laugh. It's not to make sure we are neccessarily paid for the worl, but the property we purchase on behalf of the client. On larger projects, it's not uncommon to spend thousands of dollars on software, domains, stock photography, etc. Without such a clause in our contract, they might have a claim to them before paying for them. We're just protecting ourselves.

    This entire debate is not about that clause at all - it's about the fact that you want to TRANSFER ownership of a domain they already have purchased themselves, not one you purchased for them.

    That is completely rediculous. Completely. And so are you for your immature efforts at discrediting me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FST2003
    Sorry for such a long post...I hope some of you will try and understand.
    What I understand from your various posts is that you're a bit of a plonker.

    You're silly enough to attack the very people who can offer you the most assistance. You take their words, twist them around and try to attack the knowledgable people who could greatly help you, if only you would let them.

    Here's a prediction for you: your pleas for help and assistance will start being ignored by the knowledgable people in the Sitepoint forums - the very people you came here for. You will be ignored because you attack the people you need. I further predict that you will blame the people here for this, instead of accepting the consequences of your own actions.

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    SitePoint Addict shaxs's Avatar
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    heh ouch, getting out of hand

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    Wow...about 10 years ago I would have expected to see this kind of flaming online but I didn't still think it was around...mainly seeing how its all professional adults here...anyhows.

    The problem with what you call a debate was that I asked a question based on the job being completed and then dealing with a customer which did not want to pay. YOU make it seem like I want to take advantage of the customer before we even start. Do you understand...its a 'what if' ... as in, what if the customer doesn't pay.

    Websitesthatwork...please don't take this the wrong way...but that's not true...take a sec and re-read my posts, you will see that I only defend my self to beley and return the fire back to ONLY beley. I have been very mature and respectful to everyone else...I truly hope you can see this.


    Thanks again for the time,

    BK

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    You specifically asked about taking control of a domain name the client already owned. Regardless of whether they held up to their end of the bargain eventually, you have no right to take ownership of their domain name. It's their property. Then you tried to turn it back on me, which you've done unsuccessfully several times.

    I do think it would be unethical to try and take control of someone's domain name before a project just in case something happened during the project and you needed leverage.

    You may think I'm being too hard on you. So be it. I don't particularly care if you like me or not. In multiple threads, you've discussed doing things I believe to be unethical and I think most other people here will agree with me.

    I'm not attacking you just because I'm voicing my opinion. I have not made any personal attacks. You are the one that opened yourself up to a character debate, I just responded. Frankly, I think you need to learn something about ethics. You seem like you genuinely want to learn (or else you wouldn't be starting so many threads here). Well, here's some advice.

    Try to think about whether something is right or not, not just whether it's going to benefit you. Some may not agree, but I think that doing what's right supercedes just doing business.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FST2003
    Websitesthatwork...please don't take this the wrong way...but that's not true...take a sec and re-read my posts, you will see that I only defend my self to beley and return the fire back to ONLY beley. I have been very mature and respectful to everyone else...I truly hope you can see this.
    There is no need to "defend" (as you put it) your self to Beley, as Beley has not attacked you. That you see a need to "return fire" about imagined slights only continues to harm yourself.

    Oh yes, I have read most, if not all of your posts in the Business and Legal Issues section. I've seen you attack Beley in a couple of threads, on the pretence that he, by disagreeing with you, is attacking you. He isn't.

    So far you've kept up my prediction:
    "Here's a prediction for you: your pleas for help and assistance will start being ignored by the knowledgable people in the Sitepoint forums - the very people you came here for. You will be ignored because you attack the people you need. I further predict that you will blame the people here for this, instead of accepting the consequences of your own actions."

    It's up to you to decide whether you want the help that a forum such as Sitepoint can offer you, or whether you'd rather carry on attacking people. Choose wisely.

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    I have to agree with Beley on this. He's made excellent points.

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    Hello,

    Websitesthatwork...what bothers me is that people such as yourself say things that are not true. If you look at this thread and any other, you will ONLY see a problem with Beley and I...there is no other so called attacks by me towards anyone else...I would truly appreciate if you stop saying this.

    Beley...as for the way you write to my post...it clearly shows in this and any other thread that YOU are the ONLY person 'being hard on me'. No one else...just you! Last post said:

    'specifically asked about taking control of a domain name the client already owned. Regardless of whether they held up to their end of the bargain eventually, you have no right to take ownership of their domain name. It's their property.'

    Now let me ask you and everyone who reads this...what you wrote above is very nice, it explains it cannot be done. And had that been what you wrote the very first time...I would have really appreciated the advice.

    Had I responded to your answer with...'well I know its not allowed...but I still want to steal their name'...then I expect the names you called me.

    At one point in time you were new to this type of business. You have years of on the job experience. Well...we all know that I'm new to this and trying to learn whats right and wrong...so instead of pointing a finger...why not try and teach...you do have a lot to share, I don't doubt this but don't take a question you might be quick to judge and tell me and everyone else that 'I'm a bad person'. I'm just trying to learn and ask questions I may or may not know are proper...that's all.


    BK

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    Quote Originally Posted by FST2003
    ...I'm new to this and trying to learn whats right and wrong...so instead of pointing a finger...why not try and teach...you do have a lot to share, I don't doubt this but don't take a question you might be quick to judge and tell me and everyone else that 'I'm a bad person'. I'm just trying to learn and ask questions I may or may not know are proper...that's all.


    BK
    It's not a question of "proper" - you should know what's right and wrong. If not, as I've said before, you need to learn something about business ethics. There are books, college courses, or you're good 'ole gut to tell you what's right or wrong.

    A pretty simple way would just be to ask yourself if you'd like for someone to treat you that way. If not, it's probably not right.

    This, and every, business is about creating a win-win situation between you and your clients/customers. You do need to take precautions, because there are bad people out there who will try and take advantage of you. However, you shouldn't do something that's not right just because someone might, or has, done something wrong to you.

    Honestly, I think you look at my criticisms and you see a personal attack. I think you don't see anything you've posted here on the forums as unethical in the least bit. That's sad.

    Instead of trying to come back and attack me after every post, why don't you take an introspective look at yourself. Thinking the problem is always other people, that it's "out there" is the problem.

    Everyone makes mistakes, and we can learn from them if we want to. I will suck it up and admit when I'm wrong. If you showed me even an inkling of evidence to support you having a conscience I'd happily post an apology for saying you don't have any ethics.

    I don't really think that's going to happen though.


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