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  1. #626
    Non-Member mmi's Avatar
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    I thought you were referring to the attack on Pearl Harbor
    oops, no, I forgot, you got 'surprise attacked' again.

  2. #627
    Fried Gold Polymath's Avatar
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    Oh, yeah, that was referring to Pearl Harbour, but I could mention Mexico as well, I seem to remember the Germans were trying to mobilise the Mexicans in secret too.
    Not that I think an isolationist policy is such a bad one in theory, but it hasn't worked in practice. As I said, you just keep getting sucked in whether you like it or not. Maybe it's something to do with being so powerful - like these religious extremists who see you as the Great Satan - if you weren't so powerful they wouldn't care. They don't go around targetting Switzerland do they? Hmmm, I may have something there.

  3. #628
    Non-Member mmi's Avatar
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    Post The Zimmermann Telegram

    the problem with Mexico was a major factor leading to our entry into the First World War

    http://www.nara.gov/education/teachi.../zimmerma.html

  4. #629
    Fried Gold Polymath's Avatar
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    Oh OK Good link! You'd think people would learn not to attack America, silly sods.

  5. #630
    Non-Member mmi's Avatar
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    Talking in-house

    You'd think people would learn not to attack America
    yeah, they should leave that to "US"

  6. #631
    Just Blow It bronze trophy
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    You know, I'm always amazed that no matter what the US does, it's not good enough.

    1) We stay out of world affairs and handle our own first, things get out of hand like WWII.
    2) We get involved in matters where we have a vested interest and we are just shoving our views down everyone's throat and making innocents suffer (Iraq, Afghanistan)
    3) We get involved where it's for the good of humanity and we get blasted for again shoving our values down the throats of others (Balkans), BUT we don't get involved fast enough for others....
    4) We are expected to give all this money to the rest of the world, BUT keep our mouths shut in all other matters.
    5) We are expected to foot the majority of the money for UN actions, provide the majority of military force for UN and NATO actions, take the blame for when these actions are unpopular, BUT only have equal voting with the rest of the nations involved in these organizations.

    Don't mind me....Just caught me on a bad day and these things just seem to bother me....
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  7. #632
    SitePoint Wizard Ian Glass's Avatar
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    Polymath, nope I didn't forget about your arsenal -- I just didn't care. Anyway, everything's goanna send California into the ocean. I'm sure it would've sunk already if not for the buoyancy of implants. :-p

    I'm a bit taken back by your "surprise attack" comment. Perhaps it's the way it comes across the 'net, but it seemed like you were gloating. I, understandably, would find that unacceptable, but I don't think that's quite how you meant it. So, I'm just going to ignore it and move on.

    H, the Taliban were in fact invited into power to restore order; you're right about that. However, it's important to remember the context of the Taliban's rise to power in order to understand it's fall. The cities in Afghanistan weren't destroyed by U.S. bombs or even in the Russian invasion. They were destroyed by tribal infighting. The U.S., Pakistan and others didn't back the Taliban until it looked like they were in the best position to return the country to stability.

    On the subject of circumstantial evidence, which is rapidly becoming annoying, I am right (as always ;-). The reason the DNA evidence is circumstantial is because it only proves that a suspect was there for the most part. With the rare exception of cases of pedophilia, there is a reasonable (and mostly lawful) explanation for that evidence. The same goes for fingerprint evidence (proves that someone was there at some time, but not that any crime was committed) and phone records (shows that parties were in contact, but doesn't establish what they were in contact about). All that evidence hinges on other evidence, situations and circumstances to be conclusive; hence, it's circumstantial. At least that's how I understand it to work.

    And finally, I'm a bit surprised, actually, at the discussion of U.S. involvement in WWII. I don't think any reasonably educated American actually thinks our military's involvement wasn't belated or that we took the greatest number of causalities. I don't see any dispute over that. But the truth is that American involvement in WWII far surpassed the number troops and tanks we sent.

    The U.S. provided food and ammunition and supplies to Britain long before the first Marine ever set foot on the continent. After the war, we countered to support and aid the European nations.

    There, I'm done. :-)

    ~~Ian

  8. #633
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    z7,

    “Q: Which country just asked which country for EVEN MORE troops to help fight in Afghanistan? (like firing the first missles for you wasn't enough - oh did I give away the answer?! )
    And I thought your Army recruitment commercials said you were the (I quote) "Worlds greatest armed forces"?”

    The truth of the matter is that the US does have the world’s greatest armed forces and military. I don’t think many would dispute that fact. We could have fought alone in Afghanistan, perhaps with one exception, the need for strategic bases such as those provided by Pakistan. Please do not misunderstand me. I am very grateful for the help that has been provided by other countries. It is not my intent to belittle their contribution, which will never be forgotten, but the fact of the matter is that most were called upon and responded for political, not military reasons. Terrorism is a global problem. For this reason, it was politically necessary for other countries/allies to commit some of their own military, blood, and sweat to show support. It was also important to send a message to terrorists that their actions are not to be tollerated by the civilized world, not just the US. Don’t forget that our NATO allies are obligated to come to our aid when attacked just as we are obligated to come to their aid if/when they are attacked.

    Ian,

    Love your sarcasm! You always seem to sum up the situation using just the right amount.

    mmi,

    “if "the new generation" that typically has more concern for the rights of those around the world participated in those boring events called elections, the short-sighted and narrow-minded aspects of "US policy" would, I believe, be diminished significantly”

    Agreed!

    BurriedAlive,

    “And their is no proof that Bin Laden was involved in anything that tape your government released”

    Who did you say had been brainwashed? Do you believe men, heaven forbid, US men actually landed on the moon or was the tape that the US showed to the world fake?

    Toh,

    “Let's turn our attention to an easier target - at least we know were Saddam is - the nasty evil dictator (what exactly has he done to the US in the last 10 years?). He might be thinking about getting nukes - shock horror - we couldn't have that.”

    Be careful what you wish for. I can just see a radiated “big ben” all aglow. So what? After all, how much damage can one dirty nuke bomb in a briefcase do? Only a few thousand people will get sick.

    So what if he takes over Iran and Saudi Arabia, the UK can drill for its own oil.

  9. #634
    Fried Gold Polymath's Avatar
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    Ian:
    Gloating, moi? Never, as you rightly surmised!
    My point was rather, as the largest power in the world, it is all too easy for the US to 'relax' (if that's the right word). You have often taken a kick in your complacency as a result. Well, Winston Churchill put it best:
    "There are no people in the world who are so slow to develop hostile feelings against a foreign country as the Americans, and there are no people who, once estranged, are more difficult to win back."
    And to echo what you said in your post, Winston again:
    "What are dollars? Dollars are the result of toil and the skill of the American workingman, and he is willing to give them on a very large scale to the cause of rebuilding our broken world. In many cases, he gives them without much prospect of repayment."
    Sound words and true.
    Oh, go on, one last quote from Winnie:
    "No people respond more spontaneously to fair play. If you treat Americans well, they always want to treat you better."
    And if you are treated badly, well...there will be consequences, as we've seen.
    I really don't have any major problems with what America is up to at the minute. It's just one step at a time, as far as I'm concerned.

  10. #635
    Non-Member mmi's Avatar
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    Post The (current) World Crisis

    you'd need to look far and wide to find a better historian than Winston Churchill - this guy is so great, his histories are history - he's like Einstein or Freud - it's basically impossible to even think about modern history without being influenced by his interpretations

    Americans are indeed kind of unique - they'll amaze and frustrate - they've built themselves up materially to where many have just about everything you'd want, but somehow they often end up not really benefiting from their wealth - I'd argue in particular that administering the "public domain" is a challenge we fall well short on - I recognize the tremendous effort put forward by the American people to "build markets" and create wealth in the private sector - but what happens, it seems, is that those entities which are most successful in that endeavor, e.g., MicroSoft, Enron, the Major League Baseball Player's Association, etc, are able to turn around and use their $$ to control the political system designed to (loosely) manage the "common wealth" of our representative democracy, as they say in Massachusetts and Virginia, those fountains of American liberty and independence (and some terrorism )

    yer right - we can only realistically hope to continue to muddle through - the problem I have with the "War on Terrorism" isn't so much what we're doing (now that we're through enslaving Africans and enabling worldwide colonialism) as it is (and continues to be) what we're not doing
    Last edited by mmi; Mar 13, 2002 at 12:21.

  11. #636
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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  12. #637
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    Question A lesson from history...

    How to win public opinion...

    Encyclopedia Britannica
    Micropedia, Vol 9 (1987) 15th Ed

    -------------------------------------------------------

    Reichstag fire, burning of the Reichstag (parliament) building in Berlin, on the night of Feb. 27, 1933, a key event in the establishment of the Nazi dictatorship and widely believed to have been contrived by the newly formed Nazi government itself to turn public opinion against its opponents and to assume emergency powers. Hitler had secured the chancellorship after the elections of November 1932, but his Nazi Party had not won an overall majority. He therefore obtained Cabinet consent to fix new elections for March 5, 1933. Meanwhile, his propaganda minister, Joseph Goebbels, is supposed to have devised the scheme whereby 10 agents led by Karl Ernst were to gain access to the Reichstag through a tunnel leading from the official residence of Hermann Goring, Reichstag president and Hitler's chief minister, who was then to conduct an official investigation, which would fix responsibility for the fire on the Communists. The supposed arsonist was a Dutchman, Marinus van der Lubbe, whom some have claimed was brought to the scene of the crime by Nazi agents. Others have contended that there was no proof of Nazi complicity in the crime, but that Hitler merely capitalized on van der Lubbe's independent act. The fire is the subject of continued debate and research.


    On Feb. 28, 1933, the day after the fire, Hitler's dictatorship began with the enactment of a decree "for the Protection of the People and the State," which dispensed with all constitutional protection of political, personal, and property rights. Though the ensuing elections still did not give the Nazis an outright majority, they were able to persuade the Reichstag to pass an Enabling Act (March 23) whereby all its legislative powers were transferred to the Reich Cabinet by a vote of 444 to 94, so sanctioning the dictatorship. A feature of the ensuing arson trial, at which van der Lubbe was convicted, was the acquittal of the Bulgarian Communist Georgi Dimitrov after a strong defense.

  13. #638
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    So what if he takes over Iran and Saudi Arabia, the UK can drill for its own oil.
    er....it does
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  14. #639
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    Cool Hello again!

    BTW - Hello H, hello Polymath!
    I am back from Canada - stirring the preverbial as ever!

  15. #640
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    Wondered where you'd got to! You should've visited Jez while you were out there - he's always got too much time on his hands
    ~The Artist Latterly Known as Crazy Hamster~
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  16. #641
    Non-Member mmi's Avatar
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    I'm a victim of COICumstance!" - Dr. Curly Howard (woowoowoo)

    You know, I'm always amazed that no matter what the US does, it's not good enough.

    1) We stay out, things get out of hand.
    2) We get involved and we're shoving our views down everyone's throat
    4) We are expected to give all this money, BUT keep our mouths shut
    5) We are expected to provide the majority, take the blame, BUT only have equal voting
    as Rosanna Rosanna-Dana would say, "It's always somethin' "(12KB .wav)
    On the subject of circumstantial evidence, ... the DNA evidence is circumstantial because it only proves that a suspect was there ... there [could be another] reasonable explanation for that evidence. The same goes for fingerprint evidence (proves that someone was there at some time, but not that any crime was committed) and phone records (shows that parties were in contact, but doesn't establish what they were in contact about). All that evidence hinges on other evidence, situations and circumstances to be conclusive; hence, it's circumstantial. At least that's how I understand it to work.
    from this layperson's perspective, I'd say the question of whether or not an item provides "physical" and "circumstantial" evidence depends on, ...ah, well, like you say, "circumstances" (like how much yer payin' yer lawyer ) - the example of the phone records seems C, as you note, indicates "contact" but not really "content" - but stuff like DNA and fingerprints sound P t' mme - yer clearly correct that a suspect can leave a trail of (P?) evidence which does not (a) prove that a crime was committed, and (b) prove he/she was there "at the time" - so in that sense, I guess you could say it's up to the defense to try to reduce the evidence to being seen as C
    Last edited by mmi; Mar 15, 2002 at 11:12.

  17. #642
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    toh,

    That's the point. The UK can drill for its own oil just as I stated. I should have been clearer. What I should have pointed out that the world's projected need for oil cannot be met without the Persian Gulf countries. Saudi Arabia is at the top of that list. I assumed that you understood that.

    For you to speak so flippantly about Saddam having nuclear weapons and by comparison, calling Bush the "real" rogue, thereby implying that the US is a rogue state is insanity. Do you not understand that given the opportunity, Saddam has proven his aspirations to take over neighboring countries by past actions? Now tell me, would you really want this man in control of the Middle East and the world's largest future supply of oil? I would be willing to bet that even Tony Blair understands this.

    If you tell me you would rather be governed by Saddam over Bush, I must seriously question your ability to think rationally.

  18. #643
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    On the oil drilling thing - apologies, I completely misread and thought you were implying we were incapable.

    You seem to forget that the oil you mention is not a "shared" resource. If the Saudi's (or any other country in possesion...including, funnily, Iraq) decide they do not wish to give it up, that is entirely their prerogative and fair. Seems to me like you think "we" have the right to demand control of the natural resources of another country or group of countries.

    "Saddam has proven his aspirations to take over neighboring countries by past actions" - Yes, over ten years ago, and while I am not convinced he's a nice person, Mr Bush has already made it clear that he's after not 1, but three other countries at minimum. He is consistantly (again this week) taking a "with us or against us" stance to his policies - which frankly is playground talk, and pentagon documents under his office have explored the possibility of small nuclear strikes on "rogue" states.

    Fortunately I am in a position where I am governed by neither Bush or Hussein, but given the choice of the two, I WOULD chose Hussein - make of that what you will.
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  19. #644
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    toh,

    "You seem to forget that the oil you mention is not a "shared" resource."

    Neither is wealth but the US has shared more of it than anyone else.

    Are you suggesting that countries not share/sell their resourses? You also seem to forget that oil is the only thing keeping many of these countries afloat. They want/need to sell it. The US buys oil from these countries. Does the UK?

    What would it do to your global distribution of wealth theories if all countries chose not to share their resources?

    The only thing I can say to your rediculous comment about choosing to live under Saddam over Bush is, go for it.

  20. #645
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TheOriginalH
    Wondered where you'd got to! You should've visited Jez while you were out there - he's always got too much time on his hands
    Well - actually I did

    Oil - I thought the US was in serious debt to the Arabs?

  21. #646
    Non-Member mmi's Avatar
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    Thumbs up I'll go with Bush

    he tells better jokes and has a slightly more progressive Attorney General

    dunno about debt - i think those boys may have their hands on quite a few US dollars
    Last edited by mmi; Mar 15, 2002 at 14:04.

  22. #647
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    Exclamation It's all about Oil...

    ..., stock-trading, profit for big pharmacutical companies, controling Asia and fooling the world: http://www.drdino.com/cse.asp?pg=articles&specific=26

    You may wish to whinge about the sites other content but just take 10 minutes to look at the information presented here - truly mind-blowing!
    Last edited by z7; Apr 17, 2002 at 05:46.

  23. #648
    SitePoint Addict Seer's Avatar
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    Re: It's all about Oil...

    Originally posted by z7
    ..., stock-trading, profit for big pharmacutical companies, controling Asia and fooling the world: http://www.drdino.com/cse.asp?pg=articles&specific=26

    You may wish to whinge about the sites other content but just take 10 minutes to look at the information presented here - truly mind-blowing!
    I read it and found it interesting, but it will definately take more sources before I look at it as anything more than tabloid. I saw the other content after, which leaves me to wonder if I really want to get into it.
    Everything has been figured out, except how to live. - Jean-Paul Sartre (1905-1980)

  24. #649
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    ...well - I will freely admit that my country is run by lying, underhand cheats (you don't even have to have an education to work that one out )

  25. #650
    Sports Publisher mjames's Avatar
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    I think this thread has run its course. This is not being locked due to a particular violation, but it is now being used to discuss topics unrelated to its original purpose and intent. Over seven months since this tragic day, I feel it's time for this thread to die but I encourage you to start a new thread if you wish to carry on discussion.


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