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  1. #126
    eschew sesquipedalians silver trophy sweatje's Avatar
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    KLB, I am not an apache guru, but I know there are ways to setup PHP4 and PHP5 side by side. I think most rely on one or the other running as a CGI program though.

    I actually set up a separate server with PHP5 and migrated scripts one at a time, plus initiated all new work on the PHP5 server only. This has worked well for me.

    One thing to consider is just trying your PHP4 code on a PHP5 box. I was actually very impressed at how well it handled the transition. Just make sure you are not displaying all of the E_STRICT warnings you will be generating
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  2. #127
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    Our main libraries are around 10,500 lines long according to sloccount. It's 99% procedural code though and all worked when we first ran it on PHP5. It required less than a day to ensure that we were warning and notice free (no E_STRICT).

    One of the few advantages of having procedural code when this change happened. Our new code is more object oriented and so we are doing that in PHP5.

  3. #128
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    You know the sad irony is that a lot of people like myself who haven't yet played with PHP5 might have actually started playing with it and would have migrated our sites if we were able to gradually transition.
    That is I suppose, understandable, but for me there is no middle ground; You either do or not. To go down the route that you take, I would be climbing the walls, as to me that is way too much farting about .

    Most of my arguement is loosely based on how I see things...

  4. #129
    ǖber abstrakt's Avatar
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    PHP5 and all future versions will still support all of my PHP4 code, correct?


  5. #130
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    Well, PHP5 will be some extent safe with PHP4 but not sure with PHP6 ~ If it was upto me I would break BC completely with PHP6; It should have happened with PHP5 but it was not to be...

    Imagine that PHP5 did break BC though - you wouldn't have as much problems, and then you'd have no choice but to make a clean break once you migrated

  6. #131
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    I'm runninh PHP5, no problems so far - love it!

  7. #132
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweatje
    One thing to consider is just trying your PHP4 code on a PHP5 box. I was actually very impressed at how well it handled the transition. Just make sure you are not displaying all of the E_STRICT warnings you will be generating
    I'll use my web host as a guide, when they start to offer PHP5 as an option, I'll start to play with it. If they have no intention of upgrading to PHP5 then neither will I. I don't see the purpose of playing with something I won't be using and I have no intention of changing web hosts for such a minor issue.
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  8. #133
    SitePoint Guru 33degrees's Avatar
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    Reading over the different comments, one thing has become clear to me; breaking backwards compatibility is not really a problem if you provide an easy means of running both versions simultaneously (and I mean, really really easy). That way hosts would have no reason not to offer both, and developers could leave their old code runing on the previous version and do their new development on the new version. Problem (mostly) solved.

  9. #134
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 33degrees
    Reading over the different comments, one thing has become clear to me; breaking backwards compatibility is not really a problem if you provide an easy means of running both versions simultaneously (and I mean, really really easy). That way hosts would have no reason not to offer both, and developers could leave their old code runing on the previous version and do their new development on the new version. Problem (mostly) solved.
    Exactly!

    This is where PHP5 failed if one reads the comments posted by web hosts, while it might be possible, it is not very easy to get PHP4 and PHP5 to run on the same server at the same time. When managing thousands of servers, being able to do this easily and automatically is extremely critical.
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  10. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by 33degrees
    Reading over the different comments, one thing has become clear to me; breaking backwards compatibility is not really a problem if you provide an easy means of running both versions simultaneously (and I mean, really really easy).
    This was a conscious decision that the PHP developers made when going from PHP3 to PHP4. PHP scripts used to have filename extensions like ".php3" but when PHP4 came along they change it to simply ".php". If they had kept with ".php4" and ".php5" (or done "<?php4" and "<?php5") things would be different -- maybe not better -- but different.
    Christopher

  11. #136
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    The problem is a that PHP is both a language and a deployment platform. Languages that evolve are good. Platforms that break BC are bad. PHP is doomed no matter what it does.

    The proven fix for this is to decouple source code and runtime compatibility. Java & JVM, C# and CLR, Perl and Parrot , etc.

  12. #137
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    I'm still not seeing the issue with running side-by-side (nor is the topic new -- for examples http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2004/...5-in-parallel/). From what I gathered from the comments made by hosters in the thread, it seems that PHP5 only code still has a relatively small userbase and thus not enough demand to justify supporting it; we have yet to hear from hosters who do support both, though we know they exist .

  13. #138
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Bleys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jayboots
    we have yet to hear from hosters who do support both, though we know they exist .
    Site5 is supposedly going to support both in the next week or two. Since they are a very large host, hopefully they will share some numbers on PHP5 use on their servers when that happens.
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  14. #139
    SitePoint Guru dagfinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jayboots
    I'm still not seeing the issue with running side-by-side (nor is the topic new -- for examples http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2004/...5-in-parallel/). From what I gathered from the comments made by hosters in the thread, it seems that PHP5 only code still has a relatively small userbase and thus not enough demand to justify supporting it; we have yet to hear from hosters who do support both, though we know they exist .
    But isn't it obvious that what is "enough demand to justify supporting it" depends on the cost of supporting it? It's a business decision, and the person making it will ask questions like: how much work and how much trouble is it to run the two versions side-by-side? Not just to install initally, but also to manage on the long term? Will it compromise security and stability? How can we be sure it won't if it's not a common practice?
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  15. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by dagfinn
    But isn't it obvious that what is "enough demand to justify supporting it" depends on the cost of supporting it? It's a business decision, and the person making it will ask questions like: how much work and how much trouble is it to run the two versions side-by-side? Not just to install initally, but also to manage on the long term?
    Well that was the point -- at least some hosters don't see the demand to justify supporting (not just implementing) it at their scalability. From a different perspective, I wonder if deployment for PHP5 has been faster in the enterprise than it has been in the web host market. I sometimes get the idea that it speaks more directly to those doing "enterprise" related work.

  16. #141
    SitePoint Guru dagfinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jayboots
    Well that was the point -- at least some hosters don't see the demand to justify supporting (not just implementing) it at their scalability.
    And maybe I didn't make my point clear: if running the two side by side were easy, well documented, and considered a feature rather than something some technically savvy people can twist PHP into doing, then it would be seen as less costly, or at least less risky.

  17. #142
    Web developer Carl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dagfinn
    And maybe I didn't make my point clear: if running the two side by side were easy, well documented, and considered a feature rather than something some technically savvy people can twist PHP into doing, then it would be seen as less costly, or at least less risky.
    They are willing to pay for to run them parallel but no do it themselves. Checking threads on hosting services asking for parallel support from Direct Admin, Cpanel and others will tell that hosting companies are not having any luck.

    direct admin with php4 and php5
    not stable enough with no instructions

    You don't see anyone from DA jumping in and saying "here's how you do this..." or "DA will have full support for this in .....". Nope nothing. The same goes for Squirrel mail and dozens of other hosting software developers. They just are not interseted in php5 on the whole. They pretty much have the hosting world by the genitals and are satisfied to do things on their own time.

    If any of the cpanel distributors came out with a fully working mysql5 , php5 and php4 solution out-of-the-box then you would see almost all of the web hosting wold running them within a two week period.

  18. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by dagfinn
    And maybe I didn't make my point clear: if running the two side by side were easy, well documented, and considered a feature rather than something some technically savvy people can twist PHP into doing, then it would be seen as less costly, or at least less risky.
    Right, but how do you know it is not "easy"? What I am belaboring to say is that some people seem to think that the only way it is "easy" is if PHP4/5 can each be run as a module in the same apache instance -- and I don't buy that, especially for managed service providers. Why should a user even care how a host manages their system as long as it is reliable? Still, I think Carl is right -- if cpanel et al were up to the task, then the hosters would likely be there too -- but that is not a side-by-side issue.

  19. #144
    SitePoint Enthusiast Buddha443556's Avatar
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    Why should a user even care how a host manages their system as long as it is reliable? Still, I think Carl is right -- if cpanel et al were up to the task, then the hosters would likely be there too -- but that is not a side-by-side issue.
    Perhaps security is why? I have one host that has not upgraded for that reason. The host in question runs phpsuexec (CGI) and hasn't found a secure solution yet to running PHP5 side by side. It's definitely not lack of effort on this hosts part. Though, I think my other hosts are just waiting for a cPanel upgrade to solve the problem.
    Simple fool to the 3rd include.

  20. #145
    SitePoint Guru 33degrees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl
    If any of the cpanel distributors came out with a fully working mysql5 , php5 and php4 solution out-of-the-box then you would see almost all of the web hosting wold running them within a two week period.
    Incidently, is it just me or is cpanel and most other control panel software absolute garbage? I absolutely hate using cpanel, and I can't imagine how ugly the code beneath its trainwreck of a UI must be. Incidently, the one host I use that supports both version simultaneously (via CGI) is dreamhost, who have their own control panel.

  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddha443556
    Perhaps security is why? I have one host that has not upgraded for that reason. The host in question runs phpsuexec (CGI) and hasn't found a secure solution yet to running PHP5 side by side. It's definitely not lack of effort on this hosts part. Though, I think my other hosts are just waiting for a cPanel upgrade to solve the problem.
    That's a quality/scale issue of your provider, not? They can run multiple boxes, they can use multiple VMs, they can reverse proxy multiple apache (or other webserver) instances which each run a differing PHP module, etc. Multiple instances of PHP modules in a single instance of apache is *not* the only viable way to achieve side-by-side.

    Security is a general web hosting platform issue -- not one that a particular language using the platform is going to solve (eg: PHP's safe-mode is the wrong solution implemented at the wrong place). Now, if you think your hoster isn't managing your security well enough -- I would think you could switch to a host you trust or if you think you can do better, you cohost and roll your own.

    People can nitpick this all they want but the fact remains: when you buy hosting you are not only buying bandwidth -- you are buying management and that is a value-add that the hoster is supposed to (expected to!) provide. IOW, it is part of a business decision on your criteria checklist when choosing a provider.... but please remember, my main argument is that the fact that PHP4/5 can not both be run simultaneously as modules in a single apache instance is not a real issue.

  22. #147
    SitePoint Enthusiast Buddha443556's Avatar
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    That's a quality/scale issue of your provider, not?
    Perhaps it's a scale issue with all of my hosts then. None are that large and such solutions as you mentioned may not be economically feasible.

    Now, if you think your hoster isn't managing your security well enough -- I would think you could switch to a host you trust or if you think you can do better, you cohost and roll your own.
    I do think my host is doing an excellent job managing security and that's more important to me than PHP5 support. Maybe I am the problem.
    Simple fool to the 3rd include.

  23. #148
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    The host I use is Pair Networks (http://Pair.com). They are not a cheap host and they pride themselves on being extremely reliable. In the five years I have been with them I have seen them roll out system wide software upgrades to their servers including Apache, PHP and MySQL. I also notice frequent hardware upgrades to the server I use. They have not, however, seen fit to upgrade to PHP5, to me this is very telling. You do not run a data center as large as theirs as reliably and profitably as they do unless you have highly qualified people working for you and you really know what you are doing. If Pair Networks doesn't feel that PHP5 is ready for prime time that is good enough for me. If and when they decide it is time to upgrade to PHP5 I will begin to develop for PHP5, but no sooner.
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  24. #149
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Bleys's Avatar
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    Actually, I think Pair is thinking of upgrading to PHP5 in some way, at least:

    http://www.pair.com/support/notices/...-upgrades.html
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  25. #150
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bleys
    Actually, I think Pair is thinking of upgrading to PHP5 in some way, at least:

    http://www.pair.com/support/notices/...-upgrades.html
    Interesting, I'll have to investigate this further. It appears that accounts have to do something special to activate PHP5 as my server is still reporting PHP4 and I can't find any documentation on the issue beyond the link above.
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