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  1. #51
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    A word about cPanel ... It has a "rebuild apache" page that allows you to select which version of PHP to use and a few configuration options. PHP 5 is an available version and it seems to work ok. The UI for this page was designed by monkeys on crack, but it still seems to function, even if the UI does not inspire warm fuzzy feelings.

    cPanel also has some internal PHP applications, such as squirrel mail. I think these run on their own, separate version of apache and PHP. I'd have to check that for sure. I do know that cPanel has two PEAR installations, but they put both of them in the include_path, which can really be confusing.

    cPanel also has a bunch of PHP apps that the users can install in their own control panel, such as phpBB and WordPress. These may or may not be 5 compatible.

    I think what this means is that the only thing standing in the way of cPanel officially supporting PHP 5 are the popular PHP apps that are bundled with it. Chicken and egg, huh?

  2. #52
    Level 8 Chinese guy Archbob's Avatar
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    Isn't 5 backwards compatible with 4 for the most part?

  3. #53
    SitePoint Zealot execute's Avatar
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    i'm still confused and not understanding. I'm pretty experienced with PHP, but I never understand the NEED for PHP 5. PHP 4 has already all the functions I need to do any application. Is there anything in PHP 5 other than being more OOP that CANT be done in PHP 4??? I dont believe so.

    I know a bit of PHP 5, but i've never really explored it. What i meant by learning is, i meant changing all my scripts, i used the wrong word. My point is this:

    WHY!???? How will switching to PHP 5 benefit me? AS A WEB DEVELOPER, not a host.
    Sure i'll be more up to date, but it really doesn't give me a MOTIVE.

    I always code in OOP whenever I get a chance, but i never see OOP as a requirement, because how I code is basically: Just make an application the old way, then I OOPitize it!

    This eliminates all the problems. Because once you start being OOP you loose sight of variables and even the most experienced web developer can make mistakes. Basically I only use it because people say it's the right thing. Of course, I like reusable code, but I can always change a few things here and there for any other script. So I know OOP, and do use IT, but I don't see why I need to switch to PHP 5 for it. PHP 4 has enough OOP capabilities... I'm sorry that i have to say "new doSomething("hello", "hi"); rather than __constructor, but how useful is it?
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  4. #54
    SitePoint Addict Adam A Flynn's Avatar
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    PHP5's OOP enhancements are nice, but, a lot of the OOP stuff doesn't save /that/ much time. What I particularly like about PHP5 are all the new extensions that don't work on PHP4. They just make life a lot easier.

    Yes, you CAN do the same thing without the new libraries in PHP4, but it takes longer to do, is more buggy, and is just annoying.

  5. #55
    ********* Victim lastcraft's Avatar
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    Hi...

    Quote Originally Posted by execute
    Is there anything in PHP 5 other than being more OOP that CANT be done in PHP 4??? I dont believe so.
    For applications, exceptions and cleaner references. They really clean up error trapping.

    For tool writers, a working "overload" capability (the __get(), etc methods) and proper reflection are significant improvements.

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  6. #56
    SitePoint Enthusiast Buddha443556's Avatar
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    Basically I only use it because people say it's the right thing.
    That's never a good reason to do anything.
    I always code in OOP whenever I get a chance, but i never see OOP as a requirement, because how I code is basically: Just make an application the old way, then I OOPitize it!
    That sort of like punishing yourself isn't it?

    Having said that I've not been convinced OOP + a server page language such as PHP makes sense either.

    The "market" is obviously doing what it is doing based on the prevailing forces, and so here we are.
    Exactly!

    There's a huge base of PHP4 applications that can run on shared servers. I can't say the same thing about PHP5.
    Simple fool to the 3rd include.

  7. #57
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddha443556
    There's a huge base of PHP4 applications that can run on shared servers. I can't say the same thing about PHP5.
    This is the fatal flaw with PHP5. Had PHP developers been smart, they would have made sure that it was backwards compatible with PHP4 such that it could have been easily adopted without having to rework existing code.
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  8. #58
    Level 8 Chinese guy Archbob's Avatar
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    So what excatly in PHP4 is not compatible with 5? What specific functions work in 4 and not in 5?

  9. #59
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    The majority of good-quality apps out there work on PHP 5 just fine, IMHO. I'm also on Site5 and am pretty disappointed with their lack of initiative in getting PHP 5 up and running. Hopefully in a month or two they'll have 5.1.x going -- otherwise, I may switch. I am doing all new development work in PHP 5 and am basically going to use whoever I need to once my code is ready to deploy.
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  10. #60
    SitePoint Guru LinhGB's Avatar
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    Well I'm not a web host, but I'm a web developer/admin for an university. When I started this job, the uni already had a lot of PHP scripts and packages. I know for certain that most of them will break if I upgrade it to PHP5. There might be workarounds, but if I were to spend my time on that, I would need a damn good reason to tell my managers why we need PHP5. I like the improvements but not enough to bear the responsibilities and spend the time (especially when I'm paid to spend my time efficiently on multiple projects) and efforts to upgrade to it.

    As for OOP, coming from a Java background, I'm all for it, but I don't buy the notion that a textbook OOP design/implementation is always the best choice for any given practical purpose, and I still don't get why websites (which are based on a stateless protocol) should be coded in pure, perfectly academic OO.

    Having said that, if a future release of PHP5 or PHP6 allows me to easily run multiple versions of PHP on the same Apache instance, I'd adopt it in a flash.
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  11. #61
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    Oops, I missed out on the news -- Site5 is about to roll out PHP 5, finally. Yay!
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  12. #62
    Web developer Carl's Avatar
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    The best reason for swiching to php5 is to get around all the problems that come with each new release of php4. Each release brings fixes from php5 development and causes a scramble to make adjustments to scripts. In other words php4 has stopped being backwards compatible with itself.

    The second best reason for switching is that php4 is at a dead end for features. You will gain no new capabilities which means that your applcation may suddenly become obsolete in comparison. How? well php5 may suddenly get a performance increase when the Zend engine changes. php4 will be left behind. As MySQL 5 grows and capabilities increase php5 will change to suit. php4 will stay the same. Apache 2 may suddenly give php5 a boost when used as a module along with the framework. As host move to Apache 2 php4 will be left behind.

    It does take a bit of effort to change from php4 to php5 and it has nothing to do with OOP. But after the summer of 2006 you may be glad you switched before you where forced to do so.

  13. #63
    ********* Victim lastcraft's Avatar
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    Hi...

    Quote Originally Posted by Archbob
    So what excatly in PHP4 is not compatible with 5? What specific functions work in 4 and not in 5?
    All those &'s spew notices like crazy (and some errors) in PHP 5.0.5+. Really it's the semantics. $a = $b is now an aliasing, not a copy, for objects. There are also more subtle changes even if you turn notices off. The reference passing of PHP4 does not quite work in PHP5 in obscure places, it's a rather incomplete piece of compatibility.

    Other non-OO changes include a complete revamp of all the XML libraries.

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  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLB
    This is the fatal flaw with PHP5. Had PHP developers been smart, they would have made sure that it was backwards compatible with PHP4 such that it could have been easily adopted without having to rework existing code.
    I think the fatal flaw is more along the lines of multiple versions of PHP cannot be run in paralell without hijinks. Note that I run PHP on windows, which is a poor stepchild of the *nix implementations. But still they have horrible version/configuration management.

    Highlights:

    In order to run it as an ISAPI module (as opposed to a CGI) one must have the php.ini file in the system root. Moreover, php4 and 5 both use the same php.ini. Combine that with the fact that they use similarly named but differently versioned dlls to implement extensions, which both have to come out of the same folder thanks to the lone php.ini file, and one is pretty much screwed. Hopefully they do something different with PHP6. Even if it is just calling the config file php6.ini. A better solution would be for php to look for its configuration information in the same folder it was running from. This would let one run just about any version they want on any virtual server without fear of conflict.

    Just setting up php (in any version) with an extension or three on Windows is an adventure in and of itself. I pretty much have it down to a science at this point, but it still defies logic at times.

    Finally from an enterprise perspective, they break too many things even with minor version upgrades for my bosses comfort.

    In the web hosts defence, I suspect that 95% of php hosting accounts are running one of a few popular CMS/Forum/Blog solutions. All of which are written for and in php4. None of which will be upgraded to php5 until the commodity hosting market upgrades. Which of course will not happen until the scripts are upgraded to run in php5.

    Overal it is a bit of a cluster****.

  15. #65
    If it aint Dutch it aint much Kilroy's Avatar
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    I still stand by my argument that I keep using when people speak about this subject. I say everyone should write code for PHP5 (if not 5.1) as it is the only way webhosts will realize PHP5 needs to be installed. If no-one writes code for PHP5, why would hosts upgrade?

  16. #66
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilroy
    I still stand by my argument that I keep using when people speak about this subject. I say everyone should write code for PHP5 (if not 5.1) as it is the only way webhosts will realize PHP5 needs to be installed. If no-one writes code for PHP5, why would hosts upgrade?
    Okay, sure if I were writing brand new code, I might consider focusing it on PHP5. Only if, however, my current web host supported PHP5. I'm not going to change web hosts simply to get PHP5.

    Why, however, should I have to go through tens of thousands of lines of code to get my PHP4 scripts to work on PHP5? There is no business sense to this. Rewriting code for PHP5 will not improve my profit margin nor will it decrease my costs. It only represents a major cost with no appreciable benefit.

    For the most part, I love open source software. My website is hosted on a FreeBSD/Apache/PHP/MySQL server and I use Firefox. With that said, not making sure that PHP5 was backwards compatible with PHP4 or at least making sure it could run parallel to PHP4 was at the very least very stupid. Expecting everyone to jump to upgrade simply because it is an upgrade and the PHP developers say to jump is arrogant.

    I certainly hope that the PHP developers learn from their mistakes with PHP5 and make sure that PHP6 plays nice with legacy code or at least plays nice with parallel installs of PHP4/PHP5. If they don't do this, it will fragment PHP support resulting in a balkanization of PHP.
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  17. #67
    Level 8 Chinese guy Archbob's Avatar
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    I think all my stuff works on 5 as it did on four. When I decide to upgrade my servers, I'll ask for php5 instead of 4.

    For the most part, you can still program PHP4 style even if you have 5 installed, by my observation.

    I never really used the Psuedo OO in php4 much anyways.

    However, I will wait for the vast majority of hosts to switch to 5(or 6) before I adopt the new OO stuff.

    I also one that doesn't buy all the OO dogma that people try to sell us. I've done both procedural and OO and for most web projects(small and mid-size), I don't really see the "wonderful benefits" of OO that people are trying to sell.

  18. #68
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    wwb_99, I've set up PHP (4 and 5, though not both simultaneously) on Windows through ISAPI, and it's actually pretty easy -- extensions too (in 5). Can you explain what problems you've had with that process?
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  19. #69
    What a twist! Kings's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archbob
    I think all my stuff works on 5 as it did on four.
    Same here, I haven't had any problems. It's fun turning on E_STRICT error_reporting though, and seeing all the errors adding up
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  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLB
    Why, however, should I have to go through tens of thousands of lines of code to get my PHP4 scripts to work on PHP5? There is no business sense to this. Rewriting code for PHP5 will not improve my profit margin nor will it decrease my costs. It only represents a major cost with no appreciable benefit.
    That's what the VB6 developers said...

    The difference is that with Open Source, if the core team stop supporting PHP4 "too early", then someone else will take up PHP4 and continue to provide updates. Thus, the comment earlier about compelling reasons to upgrade is probably the biggest stumbling block to getting developers over.

  21. #71
    Level 8 Chinese guy Archbob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kings
    Same here, I haven't had any problems. It's fun turning on E_STRICT error_reporting though, and seeing all the errors adding up
    Same thing in 4 if debug mode is turned on. Thats why in the readme, I tell people to turn debug mode off.

  22. #72
    SitePoint Addict n0other's Avatar
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    No. Happy new year!

  23. #73
    SitePoint Author silver trophybronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaredWhite
    wwb_99, I've set up PHP (4 and 5, though not both simultaneously) on Windows through ISAPI, and it's actually pretty easy -- extensions too (in 5). Can you explain what problems you've had with that process?
    I have managed to get it running on a number of servers with a variety of configurations. But it took alot more work than it should. Main issues are *nix focused docs and poor configuration design. Figuring out what dependencies a given extension has is always fun.

    And there really is no excuse for the lack of support for multiple versions of the runtiem on the same server in any case.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by lastcraft
    For applications, exceptions and cleaner references. They really clean up error trapping.

    For tool writers, a working "overload" capability (the __get(), etc methods) and proper reflection are significant improvements.
    Also: __autoload(), a much improved Streams implementation, method derefencing and a unified client db interface via PDO. Still, the reference handling is probably the most important change -- you can write much cleaner looking code in 5.x as a result, so long as you aren't also aiming for 4.x compatability.

  25. #75
    SitePoint Zealot execute's Avatar
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    I still don't see the motive.
    Web developers don't need it.
    Thus Clients don't need it.
    Thus Web hosts don't need it.

    And it's not compatible with php4? It's suicide for making PHP 5.... It's useless and overrated. Sure a few new features, but why not just add that into php 4, this is NOT enough substance to make a whole new version!!!
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