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Thread: Is it safe to abandon PHP4 yet?
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Jan 2, 2006, 01:07 #101
To those that "don't need" php 5. I remember that I did not need ASP 3.0 for about 6 months after it's release. Then one fine day I wanted to transfer the processing of an application to another script. You could not do this in ASP 2.0 without doing some serious coding in the global.asx file. But lo' in ASP 3.0 there was sever.execute and server.transfer. I spent two months scrambling to learn ASP 3.0 after that. Suddenly all my scripts even the ones that I had gotten from FourGuysFromRolla became simpler and easier to work with.
Sooner or later there will be something in php5 that you need. Something simple. It probably is already there but since the new functions are not documented very well and have no examples they are hard to see as being better or helpful right now.FHQK ed UP - It's a really FHQK ed UP world we live in!
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Jan 2, 2006, 01:19 #102
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Originally Posted by jayboots
Originally Posted by jayboots
Originally Posted by jayboots
Jayboots, in the future I'd recommend not trying to attack the poster of points of view you don't like. Rather, I recommend you stick to the discussion and try to defend your position. Attacking the messenger might make for good entertainment on Fox News, but it isn't how to conduct a constructive dialog in these forums.
Some very good arguments have been brought forth against PHP5, and had the PHP developers properly addressed the issues people raised with PHP5, then there wouldn't be so much resistance towards embracing it. New is not always better, and I think given the cold reception PHP5 is being given by web developers and web hosts, it has seriously missed the mark and has some fundamental failings that will continue to hamper its adoption.Ken Barbalace: EnvironmentalChemistry.com (Blog, Careers)
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Jan 2, 2006, 02:13 #103
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Originally Posted by lastcraft
Also, I suppose 90+ per cent of the occurences of '&' were (are) premature optimization in the first place. Yet another cautionary tale.Dagfinn Reiersøl
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Jan 2, 2006, 09:03 #104
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Hi...
Originally Posted by KLB
I think their level of arrogance is about average though.
Originally Posted by KLB
yours, MarcusMarcus Baker
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Jan 2, 2006, 09:24 #105
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Originally Posted by lastcraft
Something always breaks. While par for the course, I find it unacceptable.
Originally Posted by lastcraft
In regards to the PHP upgrade issue, there must be billions of lines of PHP4 scripts in use today, it seems unconscionable to not make sure that PHP5 was 100% backwards compatible with PHP4. At the very least, they could have thrown a flag in that could be used to say hey this code should use PHP5 "strict" and only then enforce the changes that break older code. This would have given web hosts the ability to upgrade to PHP5 without having to worry about also supporting PHP4 for all of the legacy code their clients were using.Ken Barbalace: EnvironmentalChemistry.com (Blog, Careers)
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Jan 2, 2006, 10:13 #106
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Something always breaks. While par for the course, I find it unacceptable.
When you make steps to move forwards, you have to expect that everything isn't going to go smoothly; That is part and parcel of software development. There are just way too many factors to consider, and to account for when a new release is made available, that not everything can be caught - due to time constraints for example, to mean a deadline.
There is just so much that you, Marcus, et al are not looking at, but rather you are quick - way too quick for my liking actually - to shoot down someone or something.
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Jan 2, 2006, 11:29 #107
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Everybody always gets upset when languages (or any software) gets upgraded and what used to work now doesn't. I'm sorry, but to expect that the Software is going to make major improvements and remain completely backwards compatible is just plain silly. If you're going to implement major changes then API changes can be unavoidable. With a language, like PHP, the whole point is to improve the language. To think you can do that without making any semantic changes between versions is inane. PHP 5 is NOT compatible completely with PHP 4 - and that's a good thing. It's not being held back by backwards compatibility. If you don't want to recode to work with PHP 5 you are free to not use it. If the developers were held back my concerns of backwards compatibility, let's face it, PHP would get big and bloaty trying to add on a new layer of functionality while still dragging the weight of older compatibility. PHP 4 code won't neccessarily work in PHP 5, and that's a good thing. Because PHP 5 is different in many ways, something I didn't realize until I sat down and started writing a PHP 5 app, and wouldn't have realized for much longer if I was intent on simply porting my PHP 4 apps and coding methodology over with little or no change to PHP 5. So, au contraire to what some people are saying, PHP 5's non backwards compatibility is a great feature!
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Jan 2, 2006, 13:11 #108I'm sorry, but to expect that the Software is going to make major improvements and remain completely backwards compatible is just plain silly. If you're going to implement major changes then API changes can be unavoidable. With a language, like PHP, the whole point is to improve the language. To think you can do that without making any semantic changes between versions is inane.
When I see how quickly Typo3, phpBB ezPublish and others made changes to their code bases inorder to make them compatible with the latest version of php4 it makes me shake my head in disgust. I look at the changes and how much better and simpler the code bacame and ask myself why did they not code it this way in the first place? Why are they trying the make the language programmer look bad by even alluding to changes in the language being the problem? Why don't they admit it was their own fult for having crappy coding style or taking shortcuts?FHQK ed UP - It's a really FHQK ed UP world we live in!
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Jan 2, 2006, 13:58 #109
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You have to get the acceptance of the majority of the PHP using crowd and that isn't happening if you don' offer good backwards compatibiliy. But really the only things that are breaking is the psuedo-OO code used in 4. I'm still using 4 because support for 5 isn't all that great yet.
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Jan 2, 2006, 14:23 #110
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I look at the changes and how much better and simpler the code bacame and ask myself why did they not code it this way in the first place?
That's a short term view to take on software development and it will always sooner or later, jump up and bite you on the a*** Then refactoring to accommodate new changes in a language take more effort, costs spiral out of control, etc.
Even if langauge changes seam just or not; Be that they are good or bad, the developer should be well versed in the language to tackle those changes; They should have the maturity and the experience just to get on with the job and not bleat and moan and grumble about all the unjustices in the world.
As to why no one will admit to their own failings, there are any number of reasons I suppose.
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Jan 2, 2006, 15:02 #111
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You see, as soon as I write code in 5, it won't work in four and the majority of clients still use four. So if I just decide to switch to 5, I lose alot of my client base. Thats a huge problem.
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Jan 2, 2006, 15:36 #112
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Let me get this straight.
What I understand MstrBob and Carl and Dr Livingston are saying is that smart programmers can deal with upgrade issues and it is programmers fault for the majority of problems and slowness in upgrading to PHP5 from PHP4.
What I understand dagfinn and lastcraft and KLB are saying is that the PHP language developers should deal with upgrade issues and it is the language developers fault for the majority of problems and slowness in upgrading to PHP5 from PHP4.
I certainly think there is responsablity on both sides. However, from a strictly project management the point of view it seems like it would be easier to manage the much smaller group of PHP language developers on upgrade issues than trying to manage the much larger and diverse group of all PHP programmers.
From a software architecture point of view it seems like the language and libraries are a lower layer on which programmers using that language have a dependency. Doing a poor job on a lower layer often means having to make changes to a lot of dependent code; whereas doing a poor job on upper layer code often only means having to make changes to that specific code itself.Christopher
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Jan 2, 2006, 15:56 #113
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I think this issue really lends evidence to the difference between PHP and it's user base, when compared with a more traditional developer environment.
In my non-PHP related experience (admittedly rather thin), you simply don't upgrade just to wave a flag saying "We have the latest and greatest!". If we chose to use the upgrade, it was for future versions of the software.
Did .NET developers rush to upgrade their apps when .NET 2.0 was released? Not in our house. We are, however, using the new release for all future development. Going back and updating our already working code does nobody any good.
There is no point in going back and upgrading all of our working applications so that they can now be powered by a different engine.
Of course, this kind of progression (running the old, working PHP4 code alongside the new, working PHP5 code) is hampered by the apparent difficulty in running the 2 setups side-by-side. I say apparent because I haven't tried it, nor do I care to, but based on the comments in this post, it isn't a simple matter.
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Jan 2, 2006, 17:01 #114
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Originally Posted by Viflux
), not to mention the open source webapps I use aren't PHP5 compatible. While this approach (having separated servers for both languages) works for me, most people either can't afford having separated servers just for PHP, or they want to make their apps run on as many setups as possible (which is then related to the former).
I read earlier in this thread that it's possible to have PHP4 and 5 running side by side without making one run as a CGI, some sort of reverse proxy tricks. Could the PHP5 advocates share those tricks with us? It'll help your arguments and this discussion a lot."I disapprove of what I say,
but I will defend to the death my right to say it."
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Jan 2, 2006, 17:22 #115
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I develop mainly GPL and free software for everyone that is free to use. I can't just start coding software that won't work for the majority of servers so thats one major reason for me to keep writing php4 code.
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Jan 2, 2006, 17:54 #116
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Originally Posted by arborint
My point was that we shouldn't get upset about the fact that PHP 5 isn't backwards compatible - it'd be unneccesary bloat. I do agree on the point that this whole mess would be a lot easier if you could run the two Modules side-by-side, that I think the developers could have at least done to mitigate the problems. Developers should do what they can to mitigate the problems of transition (without, of course, negatively affecting the new product) but they shouldn't have to keep it backwards compatible.
In the end, as always, there are a number of contributing factors. The inability to run the two languages side by side. Not all major PHP apps are PHP 5 compatible. There's no economic incentive for hosts to support PHP 5 (yet). The sheer size of the PHP user base means there are a lot of people who aren't early adopters/are less tech savvy/are waiting for PHP 5 to mature/or for whatever reason don't upgrade quickly. I think it's a fact of life that the more users you have the slower it takes the userbase as a whole to upgrade.
Sure, blame can get passed around, but as we've seen you can pass the blame on anyone and at the end of the discussion we'll still be nowhere.
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Jan 2, 2006, 18:26 #117
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Did .NET developers rush to upgrade their apps when .NET 2.0 was released? Not in our house. We are, however, using the new release for all future development. Going back and updating our already working code does nobody any good.
Hopefully the PHP developers look at this example and make it so one can run multiple versions of PHP in parallel without too much trickery.
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Jan 3, 2006, 02:28 #118
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Originally Posted by lastcraft
It's an idea that doesn't foster a community. It's hurts quality, it's bad for human relationships and bad for business. The PHP developers need to learn that, and I think they are learning.
I realize that what I'm saying may seem arrogant as well. That doesn't invalidate my point, though. I'm trying to understand the nature of the problem rather than blame someone for it. I'm trying to name the systemic -- not the personal -- reasons for some of the issues we've been through. It's a problem of culture, not individual character.Dagfinn Reiersøl
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Jan 3, 2006, 08:03 #119
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I think people should keep up to date with versions of PHP, a hosting client of mine asked for us to roll back the server back to PHP 4 last night to test a script and to be honest he was laughed at for his ignorance and selfishness. An hour of labour configuring and reconfiguring? I don't think so.
Since PHP.net are already talking about PHP6, I think it's about time people did make the move to PHP 4. There isn't much difference between the versions in my opinion, though the coding has become a lot more strict which isn't a bad thing.
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Jan 3, 2006, 08:43 #120
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Originally Posted by AvengeX
From what I have seen with PHP5, there is no compelling reason that justifies the expense of upgrading as it will force way too much testing and reworking of code. As they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. PHP4 and my scripts aren't broken so I'm not going to ask my web host to upgrade to PHP5.
People have stated that we need to basically suck it up and upgrade and that it is normal to have to rework code because it is just the way it is. This is a BS attitude that we see from Microsoft. There are probably billions of lines of PHP4 based scripts in this world and probably less than 100,000 lines of code for PHP5 itself. It would have been way more cost effective to make sure PHP5 either played nice with PHP4 by running beside really easily or making sure that PHP5 was fully backwards compatible.
If the developers of PHP really want to see people adopt the latest and greatest version of PHP, they need to take a few humility pills and a dose of reality. Then they need look at the impact of upgrading and make sure it is as smooth and painless as possible. As we have seen if they don't do this the masses aren't going to upgrade as it is better from a business perspective to stick with what works and is stable than to poor money into something new that breaks existing code.Ken Barbalace: EnvironmentalChemistry.com (Blog, Careers)
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Jan 3, 2006, 09:08 #121
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Originally Posted by KLB
So the business decision which hosts must make is to force clients to touch their code to clean it up, or to host the old scripts on increasingly less secure, slower version of PHP with potential intermittant failures. This situation will likely only continue to get worse as the gap between fixes to PHP5 and the frozen PHP4 widens. At some point the pain will become sufficient to merit the upgrade.Jason Sweat ZCE - jsweat_php@yahoo.com
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Jan 3, 2006, 09:49 #122
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Originally Posted by sweatje
What PHP developers don't seem to understand is that if the new product doesn't meet our needs and address the issues end users are most concerned with, it is not going to be adopted it is that simple.
Originally Posted by sweatje
May there come a point in time when there is sufficient merit to upgrade PHP? Yes maybe there will be, but that doesn't mean we need to do it today nor does that mean the upgrade will be to PHP5. I'm sure that if PHP6 provides a compelling reason to upgrade it will get adopted. The risk the PHP developers are facing with non-backward compatible upgrades is alienating their user base resulting in a rebellion where users and web hosts decide PHP4 is good enough and never upgrade. PHP5 may turn out to be a failed version that gets skipped over by the vast majority of those who use or support PHP.Ken Barbalace: EnvironmentalChemistry.com (Blog, Careers)
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Jan 3, 2006, 10:03 #123
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Originally Posted by KLB
I also have not expereinced the intermittant failures which were the cause of some of the recent reference handling changes, but this was sited as the reason for the BC change. I guess a stack corruption that does not happen to affect you now is still a potential lurking danger.Jason Sweat ZCE - jsweat_php@yahoo.com
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Jan 3, 2006, 10:15 #124
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At some point the pain will become sufficient to merit the upgrade.
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Jan 3, 2006, 10:26 #125
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Originally Posted by sweatje
Maybe if I were writing thousands of lines of code every month, I would at PHP5 differently but I only write a couple hundred lines of code at most in any given month so it doesn't make sense to invest the time necessary to fully take advantage of the changes with PHP5 and then do this again for PHP6. I don't want to perpetually updating code and relearning programming techniques simply to accommodate changes to PHP. I have much better things to spend my time on like making money.Ken Barbalace: EnvironmentalChemistry.com (Blog, Careers)
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